Who Are The Palestinians?

[toastman]

After decades of abusing the non-Jews, there was conflict:

Achad Ha'am from the 1890s:


""We tend to believe abroad that Palestine is nowadays almost completely deserted, an uncultivated wilderness, and anyone can come there and buy as much land as his heart desires. But in reality this is not the case. It is difficult to find anywhere in the country Arab land which lies fallow..... behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, infringe upon their boundaries, hit them shamefully without reason, and even brag about it". The Arab did indeed respect strength, but only when the other side used it justly. When his opponent's actions were unjust and oppressive, then "he may keep his anger to himself for a time ... but in the long run he will prove to be vengeful and full of retribution"

David Goldberg The 1907 writings of one traveller to Palestine vividly describe the roots of the region s enmity Comment is free The Guardian

your referring to Ginsberg, leader of cultural zionism. He also spoke of vast amounts of land that the arab would not even try to cultivate or clear because they didn't like to work and had no vision of the future.
You only quoted the part about cultivated land, not the whole area.

"""We tend to believe abroad that Palestine is nowadays almost completely deserted, an uncultivated wilderness, and anyone can come there and buy as much land as his heart desires. But in reality this is not the case. It is difficult to find anywhere in the country Arab land which lies fallow...."



Right, you frigging idiot.

Talking about yourself?

did you actually read anything except that one partial quote?

Read it all Aris. Europeans had no business invading Palestine and evicting the Muslims and Christians. That's just a fact.

They got evicted AFTER they were attacked. Why do you always leave out this fact?

 

[Phoenall]

I already gave my sources for this.

Sorry, but wikipedia is not a legitimate source. As said above, bring in academic, sourced evidence, otherwise, you are no more credible than any of the hacks coming from scum holes like electronicintifada.

Refute the points. Wikipedia is perfectly good source in that it lists primary sources including books which aren't available on line. It also has discussion areas so you know who is doing what and it points out articles that are insufficiently sourced or bias.

No it doesn't, the authors of the articles use the sources that suit their POV, that is why I look for the original author and were his/her loyalties lie.

Except for two things. Authors represent multiple points of view and - you can assess the sources yourself and track them back by doing your own research.

I don't know of any author that has diametrically opposite points of view on any given subject, all authors use their own POV when they write their works. I do access the sources myself right back to the original sources the author has used for their work. Invariably the links on wiki posted by team Palestine all end up back at pro Palestinian sources, and are based on propaganda, blood libels and outright lies.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Trouble is, there is FAR less merit in the arguments for an 'inveted' Israeli identity, than there is for an 'invented' Palestinian identity.

And, even if both arguments are found to have merit, the Israelis declared first, and most successfully, and, of the two, are the only one with a functioning State to serve such an 'invented' People.

Even in such esoteric matters, the Israelis continue to outperform and outclass the so-called Palestinians, by several orders of magnitude.

Rather like pitting the Senior Varsity Football Team against a sandlot scratch pick-up scrimmage squad.

Well, the Nazis outclassed the so-called Jews they ruled over by several orders of magnitude. That doesn't really tell us anything.

The Jews were not engaged in a decades-long political and military struggle with the Nazis - consequently, the comparison does not hold.

The Jews of Israel actually began their national life as the uncontested Underdogs, against the Arabs, and did a remarkable job of turning that around.

To say that they 'outclassed' and 'out-maneuvered' and 'outsmarted' and out-fought the Arabs is an exercise in classic understatement.

It provides us with excellent and highly defensible Israeli-favorable insight into the quality and nature of the Jews of Old Palestine (a.k.a. Israel, today) in comparison to the Arabs of Old Palestine (a.k.a. Rump Palestine, today) and their Muslim-Arab neighbors - and their various descendants still living in the region and still eligible for consideration.

To say that they 'outclassed' and 'out-maneuvered' and 'outsmarted' and out-fought the Arabs is an exercise in classic understatement.​

Don't forget outmooched.

It was the Zionists ability to mooch that made the difference.

 

[Humanity]

I already gave my sources for this.

Sorry, but wikipedia is not a legitimate source. As said above, bring in academic, sourced evidence, otherwise, you are no more credible than any of the hacks coming from scum holes like electronicintifada.

Refute the points. Wikipedia is perfectly good source in that it lists primary sources including books which aren't available on line. It also has discussion areas so you know who is doing what and it points out articles that are insufficiently sourced or bias.

No it doesn't, the authors of the articles use the sources that suit their POV, that is why I look for the original author and were his/her loyalties lie.

Except for two things. Authors represent multiple points of view and - you can assess the sources yourself and track them back by doing your own research.

I don't know of any author that has diametrically opposite points of view on any given subject, all authors use their own POV when they write their works. I do access the sources myself right back to the original sources the author has used for their work. Invariably the links on wiki posted by team Palestine all end up back at pro Palestinian sources, and are based on propaganda, blood libels and outright lies.

Of course you do Phoney....

Thats why you NEVER post ANY link to support your often psychotic posts!

 

[Phoenall]

The time limit on right of return ran out when the Palestinians stated NO JEWS.

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

Want to try again as this is what the Palestinian National Covenant says

Palestinian National Covenant - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Article 7 of the earlier document was changed from "Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians ..." to being restricted only to those "who had resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion." The final article providing that it can only be amended by a vote of a two-thirds majority of the Palestinian National Council (PNC) at a special session convened for that purpose was left unchanged.

Now we all know that the "Zionist invasion began in 1870 and I doubt that any indigenous Jews from that time are still alive. So in es

Two states. Seperate. Israel. Palestine. Details to be negotiated between Israel (a Jewish majority state) and Palestine.

The window of opportunity for such a solution has long-since closed, The Palestinians themselves closed it, decades ago. Consequently, the Reconquista continues apace.

Disagree Mr. Pessimistic Conquista

Yeah, I know - whether folks believe it or not, there is a part of me that wishes that this were not true - that peaceful coexistence between the Israelis and Palestinians was still possible, but - and this is pure personal opinion - I think that possibility died a quiet, lonely death, quite some time ago.

Am I positive? Of course not. Do I believe it? Yes. Do I perceive realistic and likely reasons for that belief? Yes.

And IF peaceful coexistence is no longer possible, then one side or the other is gonna have to go.

And, because extermination would be an unforgivable sin and crime against God and Man...

That doesn't leave anything other than mass relocation of one side or the other.

IF we are left with nothing better than relocation, then the weaker side will be the one to go.

That's all based upon the premise that peaceful coexistence is now virtually impossible.

If I'm right, then everything I've said beyond that point is both logical and nearly inevitable.

Or a Berlin Wall...or seperation like N S Korea. I think forced relocation of huge numbers of people is the least likely outcome

We already have a " Berlin Wall" of sorts and team Palestine sees it as a RACIST divide. Expect even more separation barriers to be erected and for the Israeli's to enforce even harsher controls on the land they annexe in Jerusalem. Expect to see Palestinian violence and riots as the separation barriers are extended and deep piles driven into the land to deter tunnels. Maybe drilling steel/concrete lined holes and placing explosives at the bottom would also deter Palestinian tunnels as the explosions would trap the terrorists in the tunnels.

 

[montelatici]

Now that's what I call perfecting Apartheid. The Boers would be impressed.

 

[Phoenall]

Well no. It hasn't "existed for thousands of years". It totally ceased to exist thousands of years ago and was only recreated in modern times.

You pro-terrorist antisemites can say anything you want, but that does not change the truth of the matter, namely that the Jewish nation has existed for over three millennia and Jewish presence on the land extends for that entire time. The nation-state of Israel did not always exist on the land in question, but the nation of Jewish people have a written history going back over three thousand.

It is only because you are such a filthy, double-talking hater of Jews that you pursue all this pro-terrorist crap of yours.

Let's talk about "truth" (never mind the fact that you have yet to substantiate any of your accusations).

We are talking about Israel. The nation. Have you figured that part out yet? Go back and read the pertinent posts if you are confused. Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. It's an ancient Kingdom that is long gone. In that regard - it's like a lot of ancient kingdoms that are gone but who's people remain.

This isn't rocket science dude.

You'd have nothing against the Assyrians getting their ancient Kingdom back?

I'm not sure what your point is. If they want to try and get it back - why not? Anyone has a right to try. But ancient history and kingdoms long ago gone do not automatically entitle people to modern lands over the rights of the indiginous people currently living there.

Now come up to date to the New nation of eretz Israel, not the same thing at all as biblical Israel. This was granted existence in 1920 by the legal land owners who gave the land to the Jews of the world. An aspect of CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW that can not now be repealed. The treaties are all there and have been produced time and time again on this very board to show that the land was given freely to the Jews of the world without prejudice. The rules were that the indigenous were to live in peace and as one nation inside the RESURECTED NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS, the arab muslims refused to accept this treaty and started to oppose it violently and illegally. They flooded the land with illegal immigrants to try and outnumber the lands new legal owners so they could forcibly take the land from them. They tried riots, massacres and pogroms all to no avail as the worlds Jews migrated on the promise of a NEW ISRAEL. The fledgling UN tried to placate the arab muslims by separating the NEW ISREAL into separate entities along demographic lines and created a monster in the process. Now I will ask again where is the evidence that the arab muslims in their entirety were an indigenous people with the right to claim land ownership they had never set foot on for 1000 years.

 

[Phoenall]

Trouble is, there is FAR less merit in the arguments for an 'inveted' Israeli identity, than there is for an 'invented' Palestinian identity.

And, even if both arguments are found to have merit, the Israelis declared first, and most successfully, and, of the two, are the only one with a functioning State to serve such an 'invented' People.

Even in such esoteric matters, the Israelis continue to outperform and outclass the so-called Palestinians, by several orders of magnitude.

Rather like pitting the Senior Varsity Football Team against a sandlot scratch pick-up scrimmage squad.

Well, the Nazis outclassed the so-called Jews they ruled over by several orders of magnitude. That doesn't really tell us anything.

The Jews were not engaged in a decades-long political and military struggle with the Nazis - consequently, the comparison does not hold.

The Jews of Israel actually began their national life as the uncontested Underdogs, against the Arabs, and did a remarkable job of turning that around.

To say that they 'outclassed' and 'out-maneuvered' and 'outsmarted' and out-fought the Arabs is an exercise in classic understatement.

It provides us with excellent and highly defensible Israeli-favorable insight into the quality and nature of the Jews of Old Palestine (a.k.a. Israel, today) in comparison to the Arabs of Old Palestine (a.k.a. Rump Palestine, today) and their Muslim-Arab neighbors - and their various descendants still living in the region and still eligible for consideration.

To say that they 'outclassed' and 'out-maneuvered' and 'outsmarted' and out-fought the Arabs is an exercise in classic understatement.​

Don't forget outmooched.

It was the Zionists ability to mooch that made the difference.

And just were is the evidence of your false claim then tinny

 

[montelatici]

Well no. It hasn't "existed for thousands of years". It totally ceased to exist thousands of years ago and was only recreated in modern times.

You pro-terrorist antisemites can say anything you want, but that does not change the truth of the matter, namely that the Jewish nation has existed for over three millennia and Jewish presence on the land extends for that entire time. The nation-state of Israel did not always exist on the land in question, but the nation of Jewish people have a written history going back over three thousand.

It is only because you are such a filthy, double-talking hater of Jews that you pursue all this pro-terrorist crap of yours.

Let's talk about "truth" (never mind the fact that you have yet to substantiate any of your accusations).

We are talking about Israel. The nation. Have you figured that part out yet? Go back and read the pertinent posts if you are confused. Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. It's an ancient Kingdom that is long gone. In that regard - it's like a lot of ancient kingdoms that are gone but who's people remain.

This isn't rocket science dude.

You'd have nothing against the Assyrians getting their ancient Kingdom back?

I'm not sure what your point is. If they want to try and get it back - why not? Anyone has a right to try. But ancient history and kingdoms long ago gone do not automatically entitle people to modern lands over the rights of the indiginous people currently living there.

Now come up to date to the New nation of eretz Israel, not the same thing at all as biblical Israel. This was granted existence in 1920 by the legal land owners who gave the land to the Jews of the world. An aspect of CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW that can not now be repealed. The treaties are all there and have been produced time and time again on this very board to show that the land was given freely to the Jews of the world without prejudice. The rules were that the indigenous were to live in peace and as one nation inside the RESURECTED NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS, the arab muslims refused to accept this treaty and started to oppose it violently and illegally. They flooded the land with illegal immigrants to try and outnumber the lands new legal owners so they could forcibly take the land from them. They tried riots, massacres and pogroms all to no avail as the worlds Jews migrated on the promise of a NEW ISRAEL. The fledgling UN tried to placate the arab muslims by separating the NEW ISREAL into separate entities along demographic lines and created a monster in the process. Now I will ask again where is the evidence that the arab muslims in their entirety were an indigenous people with the right to claim land ownership they had never set foot on for 1000 years.

The Arabs owned over 85% of the land prior to Partition:

 

[Phoenall]

Sorry, but wikipedia is not a legitimate source. As said above, bring in academic, sourced evidence, otherwise, you are no more credible than any of the hacks coming from scum holes like electronicintifada.

Refute the points. Wikipedia is perfectly good source in that it lists primary sources including books which aren't available on line. It also has discussion areas so you know who is doing what and it points out articles that are insufficiently sourced or bias.

No it doesn't, the authors of the articles use the sources that suit their POV, that is why I look for the original author and were his/her loyalties lie.

Except for two things. Authors represent multiple points of view and - you can assess the sources yourself and track them back by doing your own research.

I don't know of any author that has diametrically opposite points of view on any given subject, all authors use their own POV when they write their works. I do access the sources myself right back to the original sources the author has used for their work. Invariably the links on wiki posted by team Palestine all end up back at pro Palestinian sources, and are based on propaganda, blood libels and outright lies.

Of course you do Phoney....

Thats why you NEVER post ANY link to support your often psychotic posts!

Apart from all the ones I do post that sees you running away and hiding because you have just had a new one ripped. You post the links and I show were they are based on ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and NAZI JEW HATRED. Would you like me to stop doing this?

 

[Phoenall]

Now that's what I call perfecting Apartheid. The Boers would be impressed.

When the state of Palestine crawls on its belly to Israel and begs for inclusion into Israel then you will be crying all the way to the mosque.

 

[Phoenall]

You pro-terrorist antisemites can say anything you want, but that does not change the truth of the matter, namely that the Jewish nation has existed for over three millennia and Jewish presence on the land extends for that entire time. The nation-state of Israel did not always exist on the land in question, but the nation of Jewish people have a written history going back over three thousand.

It is only because you are such a filthy, double-talking hater of Jews that you pursue all this pro-terrorist crap of yours.

Let's talk about "truth" (never mind the fact that you have yet to substantiate any of your accusations).

We are talking about Israel. The nation. Have you figured that part out yet? Go back and read the pertinent posts if you are confused. Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. It's an ancient Kingdom that is long gone. In that regard - it's like a lot of ancient kingdoms that are gone but who's people remain.

This isn't rocket science dude.

You'd have nothing against the Assyrians getting their ancient Kingdom back?

I'm not sure what your point is. If they want to try and get it back - why not? Anyone has a right to try. But ancient history and kingdoms long ago gone do not automatically entitle people to modern lands over the rights of the indiginous people currently living there.

Now come up to date to the New nation of eretz Israel, not the same thing at all as biblical Israel. This was granted existence in 1920 by the legal land owners who gave the land to the Jews of the world. An aspect of CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW that can not now be repealed. The treaties are all there and have been produced time and time again on this very board to show that the land was given freely to the Jews of the world without prejudice. The rules were that the indigenous were to live in peace and as one nation inside the RESURECTED NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS, the arab muslims refused to accept this treaty and started to oppose it violently and illegally. They flooded the land with illegal immigrants to try and outnumber the lands new legal owners so they could forcibly take the land from them. They tried riots, massacres and pogroms all to no avail as the worlds Jews migrated on the promise of a NEW ISRAEL. The fledgling UN tried to placate the arab muslims by separating the NEW ISREAL into separate entities along demographic lines and created a monster in the process. Now I will ask again where is the evidence that the arab muslims in their entirety were an indigenous people with the right to claim land ownership they had never set foot on for 1000 years.

The Arabs owned over 85% of the land prior to Partition:

View attachment 34314

Where is page 1 that tells the real truth and not the land occupancy of desert areas. Even this shows that the Jews paid more in taxes because they owned the most land.

 

[montelatici]

This is the only page that identifies property ownership of Jews and Non-Jews.

The Jews paid higher taxes becaus urban land, which the Jews owned more of paid a higher rate in taxes, and the Jewish owned land was recently acquired and was assessed at the price of the last exchange, which was a value higher than land owned for centuries by the Christians and Muslims.

The non-Jews, Muslims and Christians owned more than 85% of the land prior to partition as depicted in the table whose data came from the land records as examined by the British administration.

 

[MJB12741]

So funny how Monte shows this over & over & yet never tells us the source of these figures. Heh Heh!

 

[MJB12741]

Let us consider the facts for & against land ownership by Israel & the Palestinians,. Fair enough?

http://wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

 

[Kondor3]

...Don't forget outmooched. It was the Zionists ability to mooch that made the difference.

Out-mooched? Hardly.

The Israelis made good with what they had, and maxed-it-out.

For moochers, we need look no further than the welfare-mentality of the Palestinians, who let others do their fighting for them for decades and who subsisted largely on handouts from neighboring and sympathetic Muslim-Arab countries, as well as Israeli handouts to their adversaries. Websters says: " Moocher - see 'Palestinian' "

 

[montelatici]

So funny how Monte shows this over & over & yet never tells us the source of these figures. Heh Heh!

Every one knows the source. It is from the official Survey of Palestine commissioned by the UN prior to Partition and published in 1946. You see, I have the facts and you have the propaganda. That's why Phoney gets all nervous when I post the facts from the source material. It cramps his lying style.

You can download it from the Berman Jewish Policy Archive.

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 Berman Jewish Policy Archive NYU Wagner

 

[montelatici]

Let us consider the facts for & against land ownership by Israel & the Palestinians,. Fair enough?

http://wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

That's propaganda. The source document for the facts is the UN commissioned Survey of Palestine published in 1946 before the partition.

The Survey of Palestine can be downloaded from the Berman Jewish Policy Archive:

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 Berman Jewish Policy Archive NYU Wagner

The Arabs owned more than 85% of the land in Palestine in 1946, the Jews less than 15%. Fact.

 

[toastman]

Trouble is, there is FAR less merit in the arguments for an 'inveted' Israeli identity, than there is for an 'invented' Palestinian identity.

And, even if both arguments are found to have merit, the Israelis declared first, and most successfully, and, of the two, are the only one with a functioning State to serve such an 'invented' People.

Even in such esoteric matters, the Israelis continue to outperform and outclass the so-called Palestinians, by several orders of magnitude.

Rather like pitting the Senior Varsity Football Team against a sandlot scratch pick-up scrimmage squad.

Well, the Nazis outclassed the so-called Jews they ruled over by several orders of magnitude. That doesn't really tell us anything.

The Jews were not engaged in a decades-long political and military struggle with the Nazis - consequently, the comparison does not hold.

The Jews of Israel actually began their national life as the uncontested Underdogs, against the Arabs, and did a remarkable job of turning that around.

To say that they 'outclassed' and 'out-maneuvered' and 'outsmarted' and out-fought the Arabs is an exercise in classic understatement.

It provides us with excellent and highly defensible Israeli-favorable insight into the quality and nature of the Jews of Old Palestine (a.k.a. Israel, today) in comparison to the Arabs of Old Palestine (a.k.a. Rump Palestine, today) and their Muslim-Arab neighbors - and their various descendants still living in the region and still eligible for consideration.

To say that they 'outclassed' and 'out-maneuvered' and 'outsmarted' and out-fought the Arabs is an exercise in classic understatement.​

Don't forget outmooched.

It was the Zionists ability to mooch that made the difference.

Load of crap. Out classed, out maneuvered, outsmarted is absolutely right.

Mooching? Palestinians are the king of moochers !

 

[toastman]

Monti is so funny. Whenever someone shows him the truth about any matter, his response is "propaganda!"