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Most acknowledge that there is no difference between Palestinians and Jordanians and Syrians. That they are one people. They self-identify as one people.Self identification is important and most self identify as Palestians now and for generations.
That is NOT what team Israel are saying. No one on team Israel is saying that the Palestinians can't have a State of any kind on any territory. Not even Joel is saying that. Joel is simply saying that the Arab Palestinians shouldn't have yet ANOTHER State or three on territory that was granted to the Jewish people.They are saying the Palestinians have no right to self determination or a nation because other Arab peoples have it already and they are doing it by denying them their rights as a people.
First I want to apologize for the scarcity of my answers as I am relying on my phone and it sucks to type and produces a ton of typos. I would rather be more verbose snd use sources. Tonight i will try to be on the computer.
Second i want clarify a few things.
The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity.
When you are saying they should not have another state on the territory granted to Jews what exactly do you mean? They should go to Africa...South America? Or shift tbem to Jordan and Syria? See I havent seen Joel state snything beyond denying them any rights of place or identity. It isnt too disimilar to the ways that Myanmar is erasing the Rohinga identity (without the murder and violence Myanmar is conducting) banning even the word. They are nobody. A people with no name or citizenship. I see a systemic effort to deny the Palestinians an identity.
If what you mean is the territory that is currently recognized as Israel then i agree with you. There is Gaza and the West Bank (exactly what parts to be negotiated) then that is reasonable as many will still be in the area where they have cultural and familial ties.
There is a very significant difference between "You can not have a State ANYWHERE on this territory (or anywhere in the world) because you do not exist" and saying, "You can't have a State HERE because this is the place for the Jewish people, but you can have one THERE because that is the place for the Arab Palestinian people".
Agree.
The equivalent would be for team Israel to say, "The Arab Palestinians can not have a State anywhere in the world because they do not exist." (And we are going to stay at war with them until their State is destroyed.)
Is anyone saying the Jews can not have state anywhere in the world?
Great questions...and i am not sure I have an answer but it deserves a post of its own and fits into the topic perfectly. I am going to answer this part later.THAT is a fascinating question. Actually, I think the question should be reversed. When does a people cease to belong to a broad cultural group (a people)? Is self-identification the ONLY criteria? Or is there some requirement for some sort of significant cultural change or difference? If yes, what criteria would you choose?When does a people become a people? Is there a magical line where it is decided no new peoples can come into being or is it only Palestinians held to that line?
All these are great discussion points so i sill answer them later when i am not so constrained!Where does it end? This creation of new peoples and disappearance of Israel? Where does this creation of "new" peoples become an encroachment on the rights of the Jewish people to ALSO have a State? When 75% is removed? When 90% is removed? When 95% is removed? 100%? How to we prevent the Jewish State from growing smaller, and smaller and smaller with the continuous invention of new peoples?
Let's put shoe on other foot. Let's say the Jewish people decide they are actually four different peoples, based on their long history in so many places. They demand a sovereign State in Jordan. Another in Syria. Another in Lebanon. Yay or nay? And why?
And keep in mind, I am asking these questions because I'm a shit disturber (grin) and am looking for a higher level of conversation here (which you graciously provide). You know I believe that the Arab Palestinian people in the "West Bank" and Gaza should have another State if they want one. Or they should be able to join with Jordan or Egypt if they so desire.
Coyote, with all due respect:
"The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity."
You are confusing the people.
The Jews have been in, if one prefers to call it, Palestine.
They are the Palestinians the Romans changed the name into Syria Palestinia.
The Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the same ethnicity of Arabs who invaded the area in the 7th century, while Jews were still living there, and continued to live there. The Arabs did not call the Jews or any other people of the area "Palestinians".
The idea of calling Jews and Arabs, Druze, etc Palestinians, came from the British Mandate for Palestine (it should have been called after Israel, but it was not)
Not being able to stop the descendants of the ancient Jews from recreating their ancient nation, or destroy it after 1948, the Arabs leaders - Arafat - decided to adopt the identity of Palestinians, in 1964.
That was not because they wanted to create a State called Palestine because they identified as such. It was to continue to try to destroy Israel.
And these facts seem to be something you cannot absorb and think about.
Since the first Arab riot in 1920, the Jewish leaders have been able to share the land. 78 % was taken without asking the Jews and given to the Hashemites.
In 1937 the Jewish leaders agreed to a partition for Jews and Arabs.
What were they in the middle of? Did the Arab leaders accept?
The same thing for 1947 and the UN proposed partition.
Q: If the Arab leaders so identify with a Palestinian identity, and I am not speaking about the rest of the population, why are they so intent in destroying Israel in order to have their State on top of it?
I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.
Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.
Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.
You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.
You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.
