Whites Swim in Racial Preference

[JohnStOnge]

The above is a perfect example of a fish not understanding the water than support him, actually.

Do you honestly think that one can easily wipe out the pernicious outcomes of 400 years of oppression in one generation?

Obviously you do.

You are wrong.

But it's a very comnforting wrong way of thinking, I'll admit that much.

I understand the argument. I've seen it many times before, like a document I've looked at from Catholic Charities called Poverty and Racism: Overlapping Threats to the Common Good. There's a chapter in it on the effect of "White Privlege." I'd post a link to it but I can't due to the rule about having at least 15 posts first.

There are all kinds of people in this country with all kinds of backgrounds and ancestries. I notice that people of Asian ancestry weren't listed among "underrepresented minorities" by the University of Michigan. Nobody gots 20 points for being, say, the grandchild of a Vietnamese immigrant. Why is that? Is it because, even though they didn't benefit from White privlege, are only two generations removed from a background of horrible wartime conditions and a completey foreign culture, they tend to somehow manage to achieve the grades and test scores to get in without the need for getting extra points?

In my opinion, the "400 years of oppression" has become an excuse. Not that it has no impact at all. But "400 years of oppression" does not reasonably explain why, for example, poor white children scored better than middle and upper class black children on the NAEP test I described above (whites eligible for the school lunch program averaged 292 while blacks whose families were too well off for them to qualify averaged 276). And the difference is "statistically significant" at the confidence level normally used by convention.

 

[JohnStOnge]

Bush failed to mention that greater numbers of points are awarded for other things that amount to preferences for whites to the exclusion of people of color.

For example, Michigan awards 20 points to any student from a low-income background, regardless of race. Since these points cannot be combined with those for minority status (in other words poor blacks don't get 40 points), in effect this is a preference for poor whites.

The described 20 points awared to low income students was not "...in effect...a preference for poor whites" in particular. Obviously, poor blacks as well as poor members of other ethnic groups benefied from it too. It was not something that amounted to a preference for whites to the exlusion of blacks.

From what I can tell the 20 point racial preference was for members of "underrepresented minorities" who were not economically disadvantaged. To me that kind of undermines the whole diatribe about how the preference was justified because white privlege put non whites at an economic disadvantage.

 

[JohnStOnge]

Tim Wise writes about white privelege. It's a tough sell to white people. If you have privelege, generally you don't see it, until someone tries to level the playing field and take your privelege from you.

It's an interesting point of view, and it is NOT easy for white people to see and acknowledge.

Good luck with this topic. It's a hard sell.

I've been aware of white privelege for over twenty five years. I am fortunate in that regard that I had a dear friend, a Latina, help me see it in myself long ago.

Once you see it, your eyes cannot be closed to it again.

To me, those comments reflect a common miscalculation on the part of "progressives." They tend to think that, if only people understood the situation as they do...were as informed and thoughtful about it as they are...they'd see the light and agree with the "progressive" position. It's not the case. There is nothing about the "White privilege" argument I don't understand. I just don't agree that it's a justification for affirmative action.

There are interracial as well as intra racial variation in backgrounds and ancestries. There are white people who do not enjoy the same level of what you're calling "privilege" as other white people. There are black people who, regardless of the overall history of blacks in the Americas, have enjoyed a more "advantaged" environment during their own lives than most white people have. Then there are those Asians; who really put a kink into the "white privilege" world view. Americans of Japanese, Old World Indian, and Filipino ancestry have higher individual as well as family median incomes than whites do. Those of Chinese ancestry have a slightly lower median individual income but a higher median family income. Did those Asian ethnic groups achieve that because of "white privilege?"

And, of course, those groups do very well academically. Culture of achievement? Maybe. But "white privilege" didn't stop them. Neither did the discrimination those groups have suffered over the years. Now, just because they've been successful, they don't get the same "affirmative action" treatment.

 

[JohnStOnge]

Tim Wise writes about white privelege. It's a tough sell to white people. If you have privelege, generally you don't see it, until someone tries to level the playing field and take your privelege from you.

Something like giving a black applicant 20 points during a school admissions process for being black is not leveling the playing field. It's tilting the playing field in his or her favor because you think something happened to put that person at a disadvantage in getting prepared to play. Same thing, by the way, with giving an applicant 20 points for being from a low income family. To me, when a school does something like that, it's going beyond education and into social engineering.

Of course I'm sure the school argued for the need for a "critical mass" of "underrepresented minority" students while arguing that such is necessary for achieving a level of "diversity" it contended improved the educational outcomes for other students. But that's a whole 'nuther subject.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We give veterans special points in government hiring practices. Do you have any problem with vets having that privelege?

 

[JohnStOnge]

We give veterans special points in government hiring practices. Do you have any problem with vets having that privelege?

No, I look at it as something they've earned. I think they are under compensated during their time in the military.

Also, if the majority of the people want affirmative action, so be it. I'm just saying that I would and do argue against it. If I'm recalling correctly, the People of Michigan were against that particular approach so Michigan, as a State university, shouldn't have been doing it.

But the thing we're really discussing is the "White Privelege" concept as an explanation for all of the problems of Blacks and a justification for discriminating in their favor in given situtions. I don't doubt that it accounts for some of the variation in success levels. But I don't think it accounts for nearly as much as those who use it as a justification for affirmative action suggest. And I don't think we should go down the road of trying to "equalize" people based on what happened to their ancestors. I think the number of scenarios in which one could argue that some person alive today deserves to be given an advantage to make up for a disadvantage associated with history could be endless.

I, for instance, have Acadian ancestors. They were run out of Canada during the 1750s by the English and ended up settling in Louisiana. During most of their history in Louisiana they were viewed as inferior, low class people. They were generally of low socioeconomic status. That had some effect upon the general state of their descendants today. I would bet that, on average, the descendants of those who were wealthy colonial English landowners are better off than those of the Acadian exiles.

No, it's not as severe as what Black slaves and their descendants experienced. But it did put a group of people at a disadvantage relative to some other groups. So maybe, in a system like U of M had, a descendant of an Acadian should get 10 points while Blacks get 20? I think you can see where I'm going.

 

[editec]

White previleges I have enjoyed in my lifetime?

Well let's see..

I was raised in an all white neighborhood, one that my father COULD buy into BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE (yeah that's right Blacks couldn't buy into that neighborhood in 1955)

As a consequence I went to the city's BEST SCHOOLS.

Therefore I got a superior elementary school education leading to a easier time of getting decent grades in High school than most of the BLACKS OR WHITES who attended the inferior schools that were available to those people living in the poorer neighbhoods.

And while I was going to HS I also got jobs that I KNOW (this was the late 60s) no BLACK KIDS got because the people I worked for would NEVER hire a BLACK kid.

Those jobs included: becoming a machine engraver in America's oldest jewelery store and working in a toll bridge making TWICE what most kids working got per hour...and please note: ...a hundred employees on the bridge but NO BLACKS were employed there.

Why?

Do we suppose that no Black people were qualfied to take a dime from passing vehicles? Or do we suppose that no blacks were hired JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK?

Meanwhile, my FATHER worked for Sears Rosebuck in a store that had NO BLACKS WORKING in it because? Because -- hey whatya' know? -- none of them were qualified to be salesmen?!

Well...not in the late 60's, they weren't.

Shall I go on?

Or can you see how just those few WHITES ONLY advantages worked to MY BENEFIT for the REST OF MY LIFE?

Now I happen to think that CLASSISM is even more destructive to our society than RACISM.

I think this because I was one of those po' White boys going to school with rich White folks, and I saw how no matter how well I did, I would never do as well as many of my much less qualified classmates.

But imagine for a moment, I was BLACK as well as poor.

I'd have had even LESS opportunities than life gave me. FAR LESS, because I'd have not gotten a chance to even KNOW what opportunities were out there.

Nothing succeeds like success, folks.

And nothing succeeds in this society like intergenerational success, either.

And that is what most White Folks have that most BLACK folks do NOT have...generation upon generation of some modicum of success.

Most of us start out from the point of the successes or failures of our forefathers, and THEN we make our way from that point.

And given that this is a CAPITAList economic system we live in -- one where CAPITAL dictates what opportunities one has, and what previleges one is born with too -- coming out of a society which HAD BEEN systematically denied the opportunity to succeed, and the CAPITAL to make their own SUCCESSES, pretending that being BLACK in this society is not a disadvantage, or that BEING WHITE doesn't often come with advatages that BLACKS have been denied is what?

A conceit. One that only those who are unwilling to look at history can possible have.

You have to pretend that history plays no part in what we face today to believe that being WHITE doesn't give you SOME ADVANTAGE over being BLACK in this society.

You have to lie to yourself to believe that nonsense...just like you have to lie to yourself to pretend that coming from WEALTH doesn't give you tremendous advantages that the poor will never enjoy.

 

[dilloduck]

White previleges I have enjoyed in my lifetime?

Well let's see..

I was raised in an all white neighborhood, one that my father COULD buy into BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE (yeah that's right Blacks couldn't buy into that neighborhood in 1955)

As a consequence I went to the city's BEST SCHOOLS.

Therefore I got a superior elementary school education leading to a easier time of getting decent grades in High school than most of the BLACKS OR WHITES who attended the inferior schools that were available to those people living in the poorer neighbhoods.

And while I was going to HS I also got jobs that I KNOW (this was the late 60s) no BLACK KIDS got because the people I worked for would NEVER hire a BLACK kid.

Those jobs included: becoming a machine engraver; working in a toll bridge making TWICE what most kids working got per hour...again...a hundred employees on the bridge but NO BLACKS were employed there.

Why? Do we suppose that no Black people were qualfied to take a dime from passing vehicles? Or do we suppose that no blacks were hired BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK?

Meanwhile my FATHER worked for Sears Rosebuck in a store that had NO BLACKS WOPRKING in it because? Because, ehy whatya' know? None of them were qualified to be salesmen?!

Well...not in the late 60's they weren't.

Shall I go on?

Or can you see how just those two WHITES ONLY advantages worked to MY BENEFIT for the REST OF MY LIFE?

Now I happen to think that CLASSISM is even more destructive to our society than RACISM.

I think this because I was one of those po' White boys going to school with rich White folks, and I saw how no matter how well I did, I would never do as well as many of my much less qualified classmates.

But imagine for a moment, I was BLACK as well as poor.

I'd have had even LESS opportunities than life gave me. FAR LESS, because I'd have not gotten a chance to even KNOW what opportunities were out there.

Nothing succeeds like success, folks.

And nothing succeeds like intergenerational success, either.

And that is what most White Folks have that most BLACK folks do NOT have...generation upon generation of some modicum of success.

Most of us start out with upon the successes or failures of our forefathers and make our ways from that point.

And given that this is a CAPITAList system, one where CAPITAL dictates what opportunities one has, and what previleges one is born with, coming out of a society which HAD BEEN systematically denied the opportunity to succeed, and the CAPITAL to make their own SUCCESSES, pretending that being BLACK in this society is not a disadvantage, or that BEING WHITE doesn't often come with advatages that BLACKS have been denied is what?

A conceit that only those who are unwilling to look at history can possible have.

You have to pretend that history plays no part in what we face today to believe that being WHITE doesn't give you SOME ADVANTAGE over being BLACK in this society.

You have to lie to yourself to believe that.

Well YOU pay the blacks back then---those conditions didn't exist in SouthDakota, Minnesota, Okinawa, or Hawaii.

 

[WillowTree]

We certainly need to expand this conversation to include privileges that men have always had that women did or didn't have.

 

[dilloduck]

We certainly need to expand this conversation to include privileges that men have always had that women did or didn't have.

you got that right----the chicks ALWAYS had better bathrooms in school !

 

[editec]

We certainly need to expand this conversation to include privileges that men have always had that women did or didn't have.

Those certainly existed as well, Willow.

They're not quite as evident since the women who were held back still probably ended up in the same class so when woman's liberation started out, a whole LOT of those poor oppressed gals were in fact very well prepared (by the benefit of class) to take advantage of Affirmative Action in a way that few BLACKS were.

In fact, the biggest benefiicaries of Affirmative Action were non-minority women who came our of middle and upper middle classes.

.

 

[B94]

White previleges I have enjoyed in my lifetime?

Well let's see..

I was raised in an all white neighborhood, one that my father COULD buy into BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE (yeah that's right Blacks couldn't buy into that neighborhood in 1955)

As a consequence I went to the city's BEST SCHOOLS.

Therefore I got a superior elementary school education leading to a easier time of getting decent grades in High school than most of the BLACKS OR WHITES who attended the inferior schools that were available to those people living in the poorer neighbhoods.

And while I was going to HS I also got jobs that I KNOW (this was the late 60s) no BLACK KIDS got because the people I worked for would NEVER hire a BLACK kid.

Those jobs included: becoming a machine engraver in America's oldest jewelery store and working in a toll bridge making TWICE what most kids working got per hour...and please note: ...a hundred employees on the bridge but NO BLACKS were employed there.

Why?

Do we suppose that no Black people were qualfied to take a dime from passing vehicles? Or do we suppose that no blacks were hired JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK?

Meanwhile, my FATHER worked for Sears Rosebuck in a store that had NO BLACKS WORKING in it because? Because -- hey whatya' know? -- none of them were qualified to be salesmen?!

Well...not in the late 60's, they weren't.

Shall I go on?

Or can you see how just those few WHITES ONLY advantages worked to MY BENEFIT for the REST OF MY LIFE?

Now I happen to think that CLASSISM is even more destructive to our society than RACISM.

I think this because I was one of those po' White boys going to school with rich White folks, and I saw how no matter how well I did, I would never do as well as many of my much less qualified classmates.

But imagine for a moment, I was BLACK as well as poor.

I'd have had even LESS opportunities than life gave me. FAR LESS, because I'd have not gotten a chance to even KNOW what opportunities were out there.

Nothing succeeds like success, folks.

And nothing succeeds in this society like intergenerational success, either.

And that is what most White Folks have that most BLACK folks do NOT have...generation upon generation of some modicum of success.

Most of us start out from the point of the successes or failures of our forefathers, and THEN we make our way from that point.

And given that this is a CAPITAList economic system we live in -- one where CAPITAL dictates what opportunities one has, and what previleges one is born with too -- coming out of a society which HAD BEEN systematically denied the opportunity to succeed, and the CAPITAL to make their own SUCCESSES, pretending that being BLACK in this society is not a disadvantage, or that BEING WHITE doesn't often come with advatages that BLACKS have been denied is what?

A conceit. One that only those who are unwilling to look at history can possible have.

You have to pretend that history plays no part in what we face today to believe that being WHITE doesn't give you SOME ADVANTAGE over being BLACK in this society.

You have to lie to yourself to believe that nonsense...just like you have to lie to yourself to pretend that coming from WEALTH doesn't give you tremendous advantages that the poor will never enjoy.

I totally agree. My question is how do we repair these disadvantages?

 

[dilloduck]

White previleges I have enjoyed in my lifetime?

Well let's see..

I was raised in an all white neighborhood, one that my father COULD buy into BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE (yeah that's right Blacks couldn't buy into that neighborhood in 1955)

As a consequence I went to the city's BEST SCHOOLS.

Therefore I got a superior elementary school education leading to a easier time of getting decent grades in High school than most of the BLACKS OR WHITES who attended the inferior schools that were available to those people living in the poorer neighbhoods.

And while I was going to HS I also got jobs that I KNOW (this was the late 60s) no BLACK KIDS got because the people I worked for would NEVER hire a BLACK kid.

Those jobs included: becoming a machine engraver in America's oldest jewelery store and working in a toll bridge making TWICE what most kids working got per hour...and please note: ...a hundred employees on the bridge but NO BLACKS were employed there.

Why?

Do we suppose that no Black people were qualfied to take a dime from passing vehicles? Or do we suppose that no blacks were hired JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK?

Meanwhile, my FATHER worked for Sears Rosebuck in a store that had NO BLACKS WORKING in it because? Because -- hey whatya' know? -- none of them were qualified to be salesmen?!

Well...not in the late 60's, they weren't.

Shall I go on?

Or can you see how just those few WHITES ONLY advantages worked to MY BENEFIT for the REST OF MY LIFE?

Now I happen to think that CLASSISM is even more destructive to our society than RACISM.

I think this because I was one of those po' White boys going to school with rich White folks, and I saw how no matter how well I did, I would never do as well as many of my much less qualified classmates.

But imagine for a moment, I was BLACK as well as poor.

I'd have had even LESS opportunities than life gave me. FAR LESS, because I'd have not gotten a chance to even KNOW what opportunities were out there.

Nothing succeeds like success, folks.

And nothing succeeds in this society like intergenerational success, either.

And that is what most White Folks have that most BLACK folks do NOT have...generation upon generation of some modicum of success.

Most of us start out from the point of the successes or failures of our forefathers, and THEN we make our way from that point.

And given that this is a CAPITAList economic system we live in -- one where CAPITAL dictates what opportunities one has, and what previleges one is born with too -- coming out of a society which HAD BEEN systematically denied the opportunity to succeed, and the CAPITAL to make their own SUCCESSES, pretending that being BLACK in this society is not a disadvantage, or that BEING WHITE doesn't often come with advatages that BLACKS have been denied is what?

A conceit. One that only those who are unwilling to look at history can possible have.

You have to pretend that history plays no part in what we face today to believe that being WHITE doesn't give you SOME ADVANTAGE over being BLACK in this society.

You have to lie to yourself to believe that nonsense...just like you have to lie to yourself to pretend that coming from WEALTH doesn't give you tremendous advantages that the poor will never enjoy.

I totally agree. My question is how do we repair these disadvantages?

You can't without discriminating or punishing those who received absolutely NO benefit from slavery.

 

[editec]

Whites Swim in Racial Preference

Tim Wise
AlterNet
February 20, 2003

Ask a fish what water is and you'll get no answer. Even if fish were capable of speech, they would likely have no explanation for the element they swim in every minute of every day of their lives. Water simply is. Fish take it for granted.

...

So long as those privileges remain firmly in place and the preferential treatment that flows from those privileges continues to work to the benefit of whites, all talk of ending affirmative action is not only premature but a slap in the face to those who have fought, and died, for equal opportunity.

This argument is basically like saying that it's unfair that a mother would prefer her own children to her neighbor's. Gee, really?

That is exactly what is going on, of course.

If everybody you know or are related to is pooor and disadvantaged, you are going to have one hell of time not ending up like you started out.

You might be just a tad annoyed by the pernicious effects of history on your life in that case and terribly aware of the benefits that history has not granted you.

Contrary, if everyone you know and are related to is rather well off and connected, those advantages will come to you, too.

And how easy it must be, living in a cocoon of affluence, not to realize what advantages that environment gives you, too.

Why you could, given a chance, work very hard to make it, and not understand that you got a chance to make that others will never have no matter how hard they work.

Why you could easily tell yourself, just by ignoring those few breaks you got, that job opportunity you got, that you were a self made man, because, after all, you DID WORK very hard to take those advantages and makes something of yourself with them.

And if you want, you can pretend that those advantages never existed.

But you will lying to yourself if you did that.

And if you are scion whose advantages early in life helped you to become that productive hard working asset to this community, and you announce to me that you are a SELF MADE MAN, then I will mock you unmercifully for being such a damned fool.

I do this all the time to the scions foolish enough to try to tell me that they are hot shits when I know they are nothing but people who took the advantage of what was handed to them to continue their happy state.

And yes, they inevitably hate me for doing so.

Proably explains why I have so much time on my hands, doesn't it?

Well being a cynic does have its personal costs, I guess.

I should have been kinder to those lucky kids I went to school with, eh?

Then I, too, might have joined the ranks of the happy well connected servant class.

But I just cannot keep my contempt for thier self agrandizing bullshit to myself.

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

It assumes that whites are racist and that blacks aren't racist. It assumes women have been discriminated against, when men have also been discriminated against as well. Anyone who believes in affirmative action is either a bigot an anarchist or both. Things should be based on the cause and effect of one's behavior. So if a person does not discriminate then they shouldn't have legisslated discrimination against them. If they do, then there's no justice no cause and effect and we're going down the road to anarchy. That's what a lot of liberals want is anarchy. They think life is about luck and privilege and not about cause and effect.

Affirmative action apologists also point out that whites males had privileges in the past that need to be made up for. Really? Let's look at the implications of that kind of thinking. A beautiful women has an easier time getting a date than an unattractive woman, so if I hit her in the face with an affirmative action baseball bat she will still be pretty, but the unattractive woman, (less privileged) will have improved odds at competing with Miss Pretty. So that's justice?? In short, we have at least a generation of white males who have tried to do the right thing, and they are penalized for things and behavior they didn't do. If you want to use an affirmative action baseball bat, so to speak, then you are saying there is no cause and effect in this life and thus no justice. I'm for a just society that is compassionate to the less fortunate but not vindicative and bigotted to the more fortunate...

 

[dilloduck]

Whites Swim in Racial Preference

Tim Wise
AlterNet
February 20, 2003

Ask a fish what water is and you'll get no answer. Even if fish were capable of speech, they would likely have no explanation for the element they swim in every minute of every day of their lives. Water simply is. Fish take it for granted.

...

So long as those privileges remain firmly in place and the preferential treatment that flows from those privileges continues to work to the benefit of whites, all talk of ending affirmative action is not only premature but a slap in the face to those who have fought, and died, for equal opportunity.

This argument is basically like saying that it's unfair that a mother would prefer her own children to her neighbor's. Gee, really?

That is exactly what is going on, of course.

If everybody you know or are related to is pooor and disadvantaged, you are going to have one hell of time not ending up like you started out.

You might be just a tad annoyed by the pernicious effects of history on your life in that case and terribly aware of the benefits that history has not granted you.

Contrary, if everyone you know and are related to is rather well off and connected, those advantages will come to you, too.

And how easy it must be, living in a cocoon of affluence, not to realize what advantages that environment gives you, too.

Why you could, given a chance, work very hard to make it, and not understand that you got a chance to make that others will never have no matter how hard they work.

Why you could easily tell yourself, just by ignoring those few breaks you got, that job opportunity you got, that you were a self made man, because, after all, you DID WORK very hard to take those advantages and makes something of yourself with them.

And if you want, you can pretend that those advantages never existed.

But you will lying to yourself if you did that.

And if you are scion whose advantages early in life helped you to become that productive hard working asset to this community, and you announce to me that you are a SELF MADE MAN, then I will mock you unmercifully for being such a damned fool.

I do this all the time to the scions foolish enough to try to tell me that they are hot shits when I know they are nothing but people who took the advantage of what was handed to them to continue their happy state.

And yes, they inevitably hate me for doing so.

Proably explains why I have so much time on my hands, doesn't it?

Well being a cynic does have its personal costs, I guess.

I should have been kinder to those lucky kids I went to school with, eh?

Then I, too, might have joined the ranks of the happy well connected servant class.

But I just cannot keep my contempt for thier self agrandizing bullshit to myself.

Get over your personal guilt----I was not raised in an environment anywhere near affluent and neither were millions of other Americans. Don't project that onto us. If I had a great uncle Beauregard who had left me millions because slaves worked for him , maybe I could see your point but thats not the case.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Most white American citizens are not descendants of slave holders. We are descendants of european immigrants. Our relatives were able to more quickly assimilate into the culture because of having white skin color.

Consider what it must be like for blacks who are descendants of slaves. Michelle Obama vs Barack Obama. Barack Obama had some priveleges afforded his class that outweighed his mixed racial heritage of white mother and Kenyan father.

What Reich spoke to is that under the new administration, any government infrastructure jobs will not automatically benefit only white construction workers. Those days belong to the white priveleged past.

Now we are looking at truly being completely fair in how we distribute our government project money. It's a lofty goal and I hope the President is successful in smoothing the waters and making each citizen regardless of skin tone feel that he or she will be fairly treated.

 

[dilloduck]

Most white American citizens are not descendants of slave holders. We are descendants of european immigrants. Our relatives were able to more quickly assimilate into the culture because of having white skin color.

Consider what it must be like for blacks who are descendants of slaves. Michelle Obama vs Barack Obama. Barack Obama had some priveleges afforded his class that outweighed his mixed racial heritage of white mother and Kenyan father.

What Reich spoke to is that under the new administration, any government infrastructure jobs will not automatically benefit only white construction workers. Those days belong to the white priveleged past.

Now we are looking at truly being completely fair in how we distribute our government project money. It's a lofty goal and I hope the President is successful in smoothing the waters and making each citizen regardless of skin tone feel that he or she will be fairly treated.

Is there any recent evidence that government infrastructure jobs ever have been automatically been given exclusively to whites and to the EXCLUSION of other races or gender ?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm looking for some data--here's a start.
http://www.impactfund.org/DRC December 2003 Report.pdf

 

[dilloduck]

I'm looking for some data--here's a start.
http://www.impactfund.org/DRC December 2003 Report.pdf

BY temporary emplotment agencies in California ??????

keep looking and find some even remotely relevant