Which message do you take from Acts 4-5?

[Irish2]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

 

[Meriweather]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

I've heard some suggest that the two died of fear, being caught out lying to God.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

And Peter answered unto her ...

neither the apostle nor the script reflect the spoken message for that time.

.

 

[Irish2]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

I've heard some suggest that the two died of fear, being caught out lying to God.

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

I've heard some suggest that the two died of fear, being caught out lying to God.

most interpretations I find say something like this;

5. "Ananias . . . gave up the ghost. Fell down and expired. There was a visible judgment upon him for his great sin. It was inflicted by the Holy Spirit through Peter, and shows how hypocrisy is regarded by the Lord." From: http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/peoples-new-testament/acts/5.html
In other words they were put to death by the Lord, rather harsh?

By the way what do you think of Luke's version of the early Church as commune-like?

 

[hobelim]

My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

Well, if it was ok for peter how could it be wrong for anyone else to extort money from their flocks, for the Lord of course, through fear and intimidation?

 

[Taz]

My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

Well, if it was ok for peter how could it be wrong for anyone else to extort money from their flocks, for the Lord of course, through fear and intimidation?

All religions extort money from their flock, that's the whole fucking point.

 

[Pogo]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

"Lying to God" is merely the moral, and "extorting money" doesn't even enter into it since the whole idea is communalism. That's the theme here, the rest merely reinforcing the rectitude of the idea. Acts 5 simply follows up and reinforces Acts 4, wherein lieth all the lifestyle description. The entire idea is communal direction over individualism.

The Hutterites built an entire lifestyle out of Acts 4. They live on what they call a "colony", which could also be called a "commune", which works as a unit under the direction of the Minister (CEO) and his wife the Schneider (tailor). Their buildings and equipment are all owned communally, there are no individual personal possessions per se save the clothes on one's back. You live in a one of the several houses built for that purpose, owned by the Colony. Meals are taken together in a common dining hall.

They are also devout pacifists, refusing to participate in aggression or wear a uniform, which has led them to migrate en masse from one country to the next when that country decided it was going to demand their service -- including this one, where some of them were tortured and killed at Leavenworth Prison for refusing to fight in World War One, whereupon they moved from the Dakotas to Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Alberta (some have since moved back to the Dakotas and Montana following a deal with the USG).

All of which seems to work out for them; one is struck upon meeting them by an air of supreme self-confidence that at first comes off as almost rudeness. In their history they have recorded a total of something like one murder and two suicides. In five hundred years. And they were, when I roamed among them twenty years ago (and possibly still are), the fastest-growing ethnic group in the United States.

 

[Irish2]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

"Lying to God" is merely the moral, and "extorting money" doesn't even enter into it since the whole idea is communalism. That's the theme here, the rest merely reinforcing the rectitude of the idea. Acts 5 simply follows up and reinforces Acts 4, wherein lieth all the lifestyle description. The entire idea is communal direction over individualism.

The Hutterites built an entire lifestyle out of Acts 4. They live on what they call a "colony", which could also be called a "commune", which works as a unit under the direction of the Minister (CEO) and his wife the Schneider (tailor). Their buildings and equipment are all owned communally, there are no individual personal possessions per se save the clothes on one's back. You live in a one of the several houses built for that purpose, owned by the Colony. Meals are taken together in a common dining hall.

They are also devout pacifists, refusing to participate in aggression or wear a uniform, which has led them to migrate en masse from one country to the next when that country decided it was going to demand their service -- including this one, where some of them were tortured and killed at Leavenworth Prison for refusing to fight in World War One, whereupon they moved from the Dakotas to Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Alberta (some have since moved back to the Dakotas and Montana following a deal with the USG).

All of which seems to work out for them; one is struck upon meeting them by an air of supreme self-confidence that at first comes off as almost rudeness. In their history they have recorded a total of something like one murder and two suicides. In five hundred years. And they were, when I roamed among them twenty years ago (and possibly still are), the fastest-growing ethnic group in the United States.

Very interesting, I had a lot of Hutterites as customers when I worked in Southern Alberta. Nice people. Some of them had a great sense of humor. They used to bring me in produce, potatos, corn and such. And when I was a youngster in southern British Columbia there was a very high population of Mennonites (helped along by the fact that they often had families of 12 or more. Their womenfolk covered up like muslim women sort of but with colorful hand made clothes and usually black head scarfs. They were nice people too, very hard working. Never knew an Anabaptist from shlomola back then. Still don't I guess. Connection with Amish is interesting too. Thanks for the info.

 

[Picaro]

The short answer to the OP is that it was the lie and the vanity behind it that was punished, not the act of withholding part of the proceeds in the parable. There was no compulsory requirement to give away all of one's wealth in the beginnings of the 'church', (Acts is also the book in which the word 'church' is used by the way), the 'crime' was lying to 'the Holy Spirit' at a critical time for the Christian sect, with the persecutions of the Apostles increasing in frequency and severity.

The parable of Ananias and Sapphira are presented in contrast to the humble Barnaba's selflessness and lack of vanity. They were attempting to aggrandize themselves and enhance their personal status in the eyes of their peers by the false claim of their generosity, hence it was both the lie and the petty vanity that is being 'punished' in the context of the church. If they hadn't of lied they would have suffered no consequences.

It's a moral allegory on the harmful effects of lying and vanity on the 'soul'. No one was required to impoverish themselves or give everything away to the 'church'; even tithing is not a compulsory requirement.

 

[there4eyeM]

The original Christian community ('church') was communal, and that is the spirit of Christianity.

 

[Picaro]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

Well, it wasn't Jesus who 'punished' them, and as an allegorical story it's obvious that they killed their own 'spirits' by lying to their peers. The early 'church' was not an ancient version of a hippie commune.

And, as for the TV evangelists, they aren't extorting anybody, just taking advantage of of other dishonest people who think they can bribe their way into favors and 'miracles', so I can't rake up a lot of sympathy for the TV evangelists' 'victims', really. Being stupid and gullible is not a vaccination against being a dishonest and mean person.

 

[Picaro]

The original Christian community ('church') was communal, and that is the spirit of Christianity.

Can you cite any examples of this? It's a community of faith, certainly, but not a commune in the modern sense, though some Christians did indeed form communes; it's not a commandment of any sort.

 

[there4eyeM]

Read Acts.

 

[Picaro]

Read Acts.

I have.

 

[there4eyeM]

Then it is clear.

 

[Picaro]

Then it is clear.

Yes, it's clear there is no command to sell everything and live in a commune; giving is purely voluntary. It would be impossible to fill all the covenants re caring for widows, children, and the poor if everybody are themselves living in poverty. Duh. You're reading into it what you personally want it to say, i.e. projecting your own ego into your interpretation, not what it actually says. Nowhere is poverty compulsory or even promoted.

 

[Steven_R]

The original Christian community ('church') was communal, and that is the spirit of Christianity.

...or else.

 

[there4eyeM]

They were not in poverty just because they held everything in common. That is an absurd conclusion.
So-called Christians like to deny what Acts clearly says and shows because they have substituted a preferred set of precepts.

 

[danielpalos]

That the socialism of "from each according to their ability to each according to their need" requires social morals for free.

 

[there4eyeM]

A paraphrase of Scripture.