Which is the shorter distance?

[flacaltenn]

To most folks, libertarians are just the fussy cousins of Republicans. But the reality is when you measure the political distances, we are equi-distant to both the Republican and Democrat party animals. This is apparent on the 2 dimensional Nolan Chart ---

Nolan Chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that is an improved locator of your political preference over the ultra trivial "left - right" stick chart. In fact, on the Nolan Chart -- we're a smidgeon closer to "moderate" but in reality -- anything but moderate.

It might get me uninvited from the "Conservative Clubhouse", but I believe the Lib Party is actually closer to the center of the DEM camp, than the REP camp. It's just that there is some INSURMOUNTABLE terrain between us because of the Collectivist leanings and general anti-free market feelings (ala "Occupy") in the DEM ranks.

Show me a DEM that believes in free markets and economic freedom being as important as social freedom and I contend we're connected.

We're connected because of the HUGE agreement on the proper use of projected military force, on issues of civil liberties like the Patriot Act, the concept of personal choices in medicinal, educational, personal and health matters, and the entire bill of rights. We also agree on ending corporate government collusion (tho probably disagree on which one causes the other).

So -- I don't buy the popular knowledge that we are just all Ron Pauls with additional social awkwardness. I see a lot of Moynihan, Feingold, Durbin, Conyers and Kucinich in there as well.

And except for the mistrust of Capitalism and the proximity to Collectivist solutions, most MAINSTREAM Dems make just as good neighbors as Republicans..

 

[ladyliberal]

My impression is that the Libertarian Party is more likely to align itself with Republicans than Democrats. Witness the placement of Republicans Gary Johnson, Bob Barr and Ron Paul on the Libertarian Party's presidential ticket. Democrats might agree with the LP on certain issues, but I haven't seen this sort of alliance between Democrats and the LP.

As for whether libertarianism is more compatible with the Democratic or Republican parties, it depends very much on how one defines libertarianism. Certainly, I don't feel comfortable telling someone that he can't call himself libertarian because he is pro-life, even though I think it is clear that the pro-choice position is more libertarian.

And even if we could agree which position is more libertarian, that wouldn't tell us what the correct position is. Virtually every libertarian recognizes the need for some restrictions on individual liberties (recognizing that one person's liberty might infringe on another's). And for my part, I'm entirely comfortable favoring more social liberties than the average American and fewer economic ones (speaking very broadly).

 

[Wiseacre]

To most folks, libertarians are just the fussy cousins of Republicans. But the reality is when you measure the political distances, we are equi-distant to both the Republican and Democrat party animals. This is apparent on the 2 dimensional Nolan Chart ---

Nolan Chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that is an improved locator of your political preference over the ultra trivial "left - right" stick chart. In fact, on the Nolan Chart -- we're a smidgeon closer to "moderate" but in reality -- anything but moderate.

It might get me uninvited from the "Conservative Clubhouse", but I believe the Lib Party is actually closer to the center of the DEM camp, than the REP camp. It's just that there is some INSURMOUNTABLE terrain between us because of the Collectivist leanings and general anti-free market feelings (ala "Occupy") in the DEM ranks.

Show me a DEM that believes in free markets and economic freedom being as important as social freedom and I contend we're connected.

We're connected because of the HUGE agreement on the proper use of projected military force, on issues of civil liberties like the Patriot Act, the concept of personal choices in medicinal, educational, personal and health matters, and the entire bill of rights. We also agree on ending corporate government collusion (tho probably disagree on which one causes the other).

So -- I don't buy the popular knowledge that we are just all Ron Pauls with additional social awkwardness. I see a lot of Moynihan, Feingold, Durbin, Conyers and Kucinich in there as well.

And except for the mistrust of Capitalism and the proximity to Collectivist solutions, most MAINSTREAM Dems make just as good neighbors as Republicans..

I dunno, the dems seem perfectly willing to start a war or make it bigger than the libertarians do. It was Obama that authorized the Afghan surge, got us into the Libyan war, and has been firing rockets into Pakistan and Yemen and other places. And 115 democrats did vote for the Iraqi war; I'm thinking the Dems are a lot more willing to project military force than the libertarians are.

Then there's this issue of civil rights and choices, I'd say the Dems are much more in favor of limiting both than the libertarians are. This is an area where the libertarians and the repubs are much more in sync. Surely you know that the democrats are far more interested in restricting freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. They are against choices for education (vouchers), health savings accounts, and privatizing SS. All of which libertarians want.

And I think you also are mistaken about democrats wanting to end corporate/gov't collusion; They'll say it all day long but they won't do it any more than the repubs will. No democrat will ever vote to reduce gov't spending. They want bigger gov't, more taxes, and more spending. Which makes them polar opposities of the libertarians who want as little as possible of all three.

 

[flacaltenn]

My impression is that the Libertarian Party is more likely to align itself with Republicans than Democrats. Witness the placement of Republicans Gary Johnson, Bob Barr and Ron Paul on the Libertarian Party's presidential ticket. Democrats might agree with the LP on certain issues, but I haven't seen this sort of alliance between Democrats and the LP.

As for whether libertarianism is more compatible with the Democratic or Republican parties, it depends very much on how one defines libertarianism. Certainly, I don't feel comfortable telling someone that he can't call himself libertarian because he is pro-life, even though I think it is clear that the pro-choice position is more libertarian.

And even if we could agree which position is more libertarian, that wouldn't tell us what the correct position is. Virtually every libertarian recognizes the need for some restrictions on individual liberties (recognizing that one person's liberty might infringe on another's). And for my part, I'm entirely comfortable favoring more social liberties than the average American and fewer economic ones (speaking very broadly).

Hey -- my favorite LadyLiberal. The one I want to feel closer to ---

Our recent selection of "pragmatic politicians" certainly doesn't help my argument -- I know. But as a realist -- it moves us from a debating society with no plan for governing into the status of a party that wants to solve problems. I'll wager that Bob Barr for instance has had a "revelation" in terms of choice and freedom once he was liberated from the Republican dungeon.. We've flirted with Howard Stern as well and would welcome ANY refugees from conventional politics that wanted to support the Platform.

THere are MANY pro-life Democrats in office. Just as we have a number of pro-life libertarians. And it's a recent source of friction for us because it HAS to be addressed. But I'm more concerned about the mess we're in from rebuilding countries other than our own and a Congress that incapable of managing the monster that they created.

We should really look more at the COMMON IMPORTANT issues that could end America as we know it. Because you CAN'T continue to address social welfare in a broke-butt country.
Even the far left and labor now knows how bleak things can get when the fiscal situation gets out of hand. And we are breeding a new type of "fiscal conservative" who will largely spring from YOUR side of table. (Once the insurrection and Collectivist Revolution is defeated in November)

THere's also the "leftist dissappointment" factor with finally electing a Progressive to the Prez and getting so little for their efforts. There's gonna be a lot of soul searching in the Dem ranks (and maybe some navel gazing and wrath towards their choice of party as well).

I believe you'll see a drift in mainstream Dems TOWARDs fiscal responsibility and a blowback against all the class warfare and market negativism.. And MAYBE -- that will move us a lot closer to our buds on the left.. The ones that don't really hate Capitalism and free markets. And believe that freedoms have to be INDIVIDUAL and not so much group identity and divisiveness.

 

[midcan5]

'Character is both developed and revealed by tests, and all of life is a test.' anon

Interesting I took this version (Nolan Chart Survey) of that test and ended liberal leaning towards statist. But I have to say the many qualifications in the questions was a problem. I would never have used those specific definitions as the choices. It may just be all ideologies are personal mixes as in many ways I am more conservative than most but today would never use that word to describe myself.

While your OP was reasonable I am not a fan of Libertarianism, it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy. Every libertarian I know is a young person, usually upper middle to upper class, so it's easy to assume all you need is 'freedom.' I've written a lot about it and will link a few posts. Also see other tests, I am fascinated by the right left brain idea. Watching our grandchildren grow has been a nature/nurture lesson I missed with our own, being too busy with that thing called life and work.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/50564-libertarianism-in-a-nutshell-ii.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/189696-libertarian-flame.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question-4.html


Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Why is libertarianism wrong?
http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/types_of_libertarian1.jpg

"You have the ability to use both creativity and reality to process the information you receive. This is a unique gift that allows you to both focus on rules and regulations but to also act with creativity. You are able to adjust to change, even though you might not like it, and you can become emotionally involved in your work if it interests you." Right Brain vs Left Brain Creativity Test at The Art Institute of Vancouver


Other tests:

OkCupid | The Politics Test
Left Right* Hemisphere Brain Processing
Search Search for
Morality Quiz/Test your Morals, Values & Ethics - Your Morals.Org


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt in 'Ill Fares the Land'

 

[OODA_Loop]

it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy.

Liberalism reminds me of "He got his, I didnt, take his and give it to me" political philosophy.

 

[rightwinger]

it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy.

Liberalism reminds me of "He got his, I didnt, take his and give it to me" political philosophy.

Conservatism reminds me of........Mine, mine....mine

 

[Intense]

You do realize that the concept of Private Property, serves Each of Us, both Rich and Poor. Failing to recognize and distinguish between Right and Wrong, is a Corruption of Spirit.

 

[Wiseacre]

it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy.

Liberalism reminds me of "He got his, I didnt, take his and give it to me" political philosophy.

Conservatism reminds me of........Mine, mine....mine

Why shouldn't you be able to keep as much of what you have earned as possible?

 

[Care4all]

Liberalism reminds me of "He got his, I didnt, take his and give it to me" political philosophy.

Conservatism reminds me of........Mine, mine....mine

Why shouldn't you be able to keep as much of what you have earned as possible?

Start with humbling yourself, then say an honest prayer and ask God or Jesus for the answer to that question, that is.... if you are a Christian....I trust you will get your answer if you are opened to receive it.

The mine mine mine mine of the wealthy and other's attitude, is the movement of the antichrist....it can be no other thing....again, that is....IF you are a Christian.

Globalization of Greed! | Magazine Article | Tomorrow's World

 

[flacaltenn]

'Character is both developed and revealed by tests, and all of life is a test.' anon

Interesting I took this version (Nolan Chart Survey) of that test and ended liberal leaning towards statist. But I have to say the many qualifications in the questions was a problem. I would never have used those specific definitions as the choices. It may just be all ideologies are personal mixes as in many ways I am more conservative than most but today would never use that word to describe myself.

While your OP was reasonable I am not a fan of Libertarianism, it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy. Every libertarian I know is a young person, usually upper middle to upper class, so it's easy to assume all you need is 'freedom.' I've written a lot about it and will link a few posts. Also see other tests, I am fascinated by the right left brain idea. Watching our grandchildren grow has been a nature/nurture lesson I missed with our own, being too busy with that thing called life and work.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/50564-libertarianism-in-a-nutshell-ii.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/189696-libertarian-flame.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question-4.html


Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Why is libertarianism wrong?
http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/types_of_libertarian1.jpg

"You have the ability to use both creativity and reality to process the information you receive. This is a unique gift that allows you to both focus on rules and regulations but to also act with creativity. You are able to adjust to change, even though you might not like it, and you can become emotionally involved in your work if it interests you." Right Brain vs Left Brain Creativity Test at The Art Institute of Vancouver


Other tests:

OkCupid | The Politics Test
Left Right* Hemisphere Brain Processing
Search Search for
Morality Quiz/Test your Morals, Values & Ethics - Your Morals.Org


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt in 'Ill Fares the Land'

You are Proof positive of the ACCURACY of the Nolan Quiz..

I assume you scored HIGH statist no doubt. (BTW: statist is just an interpretation of answers INDEPENDENT of the chart or its axes. The questions are designed to answer two questions. One on social freedom the other on economic freedom)..

I am NOT going back to those cesspools of smears you posted in links. Not here -- not now. There's nothing to be gained between us by ridding you of misinformation and misinterpretation..

I'm really interested in finding the relative distance between Libertarians and the right-left camps. And which we have more actually in common that would move this country forward. My selfish reason for that is that I'm looking forward to elected 3rd party and Independent candidates being a lot more prevalent in the near future and I want to understand how coalitions will be made..

 

[flacaltenn]

To most folks, libertarians are just the fussy cousins of Republicans. But the reality is when you measure the political distances, we are equi-distant to both the Republican and Democrat party animals. This is apparent on the 2 dimensional Nolan Chart ---

Nolan Chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that is an improved locator of your political preference over the ultra trivial "left - right" stick chart. In fact, on the Nolan Chart -- we're a smidgeon closer to "moderate" but in reality -- anything but moderate.

It might get me uninvited from the "Conservative Clubhouse", but I believe the Lib Party is actually closer to the center of the DEM camp, than the REP camp. It's just that there is some INSURMOUNTABLE terrain between us because of the Collectivist leanings and general anti-free market feelings (ala "Occupy") in the DEM ranks.

Show me a DEM that believes in free markets and economic freedom being as important as social freedom and I contend we're connected.

We're connected because of the HUGE agreement on the proper use of projected military force, on issues of civil liberties like the Patriot Act, the concept of personal choices in medicinal, educational, personal and health matters, and the entire bill of rights. We also agree on ending corporate government collusion (tho probably disagree on which one causes the other).

So -- I don't buy the popular knowledge that we are just all Ron Pauls with additional social awkwardness. I see a lot of Moynihan, Feingold, Durbin, Conyers and Kucinich in there as well.

And except for the mistrust of Capitalism and the proximity to Collectivist solutions, most MAINSTREAM Dems make just as good neighbors as Republicans..

I dunno, the dems seem perfectly willing to start a war or make it bigger than the libertarians do. It was Obama that authorized the Afghan surge, got us into the Libyan war, and has been firing rockets into Pakistan and Yemen and other places. And 115 democrats did vote for the Iraqi war; I'm thinking the Dems are a lot more willing to project military force than the libertarians are.

Then there's this issue of civil rights and choices, I'd say the Dems are much more in favor of limiting both than the libertarians are. This is an area where the libertarians and the repubs are much more in sync. Surely you know that the democrats are far more interested in restricting freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. They are against choices for education (vouchers), health savings accounts, and privatizing SS. All of which libertarians want.

And I think you also are mistaken about democrats wanting to end corporate/gov't collusion; They'll say it all day long but they won't do it any more than the repubs will. No democrat will ever vote to reduce gov't spending. They want bigger gov't, more taxes, and more spending. Which makes them polar opposities of the libertarians who want as little as possible of all three.

Trying to find conviction and coherency in either party is difficult. And actually I tend to agree with you about which foxhole I'd have to jump into if fighting broke out.

Libertarians have the advantage of an unblemished record of non-performance. Honest appraisal. It's like having Rush Limbaugh do NFL commentary instead of Joe Montana. It boils down to whether you have a philosophical backbone that actually guides you thru all of the issues that you mentioned. I'm solidly in the Libertarian camp because it does serve as a sturdy guide to public policy.

There's enough division within the R & D camps that with OTHER CHOICES for party alignment -- there would be substantial migration. Look at the Progressive side of the Dems or the Tea Party side of the Repubs. ACTUALLY -- we generally feed from the MIDDLE of those camps.

The dissapointment is Obama's continuation of the War on Terror, War on Drugs, and inability to sell the key points Progressive agenda is an example. We got Progressive policy and rhetoric all right -- but NOT in the areas that are dear to the Revolution.

Corporate collusion has INCREASED greatly under his direct leadership. There is now Big Wind, Big Solar and a lot more room for lobbyists on healthcare, agriculture (because of food stamps), and finance. But Obama is NOT the Dem party. Most Dems I know still think this is the same party of JFK. And they are NOT signed up for the current Revolution.

When you REALLY GET DOWN to the issues you covered like commitment of offensive military action, civil liberties, and separating fed govt from industry, there IS NO definitive difference. For instance on issues like Asset Forfeiture, Search and Seizure and Eminent Domain you find only champions on BOTH SIDES willing to actually act. And by count -- there are just as many on the left as on the right. Bob Barr -- our last candidate for Prez -- had an epiphany about Civil Liberties after his experience in the Repub camp and became one of those. But I thank God reguarly for when John Conyers has his cogent moments and ACTS like a true Liberal..

 

[flacaltenn]

Conservatism reminds me of........Mine, mine....mine

Why shouldn't you be able to keep as much of what you have earned as possible?

Start with humbling yourself, then say an honest prayer and ask God or Jesus for the answer to that question, that is.... if you are a Christian....I trust you will get your answer if you are opened to receive it.

The mine mine mine mine of the wealthy and other's attitude, is the movement of the antichrist....it can be no other thing....again, that is....IF you are a Christian.

Globalization of Greed! | Magazine Article | Tomorrow's World

If by "keep to yourself" you mean in avoidance of helping others -- you are correct.

But if by "keep to yourself" you mean avoidance of a GOVT confiscation for their not entirely altruistic benefit -- than I'm gonna be a lot less open-minded than Jesus about that.

I don't understand how people feel freedom at all when your pocketbook and business ventures are being scavenged with a vengeance.. Ya know "time is money".. And being GREEDY and SELFISH with one's MONEY is worse than being greedy with your Time? I don't think so.. That's why the greater emphasis on Economic freedom in the L.P. Because putting a lien on people's TIME IS a breach of civil liberty..

(Libertarian belief on greed and freedom in a nutshell)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

My impression is that the Libertarian Party is more likely to align itself with Republicans than Democrats. Witness the placement of Republicans Gary Johnson, Bob Barr and Ron Paul on the Libertarian Party's presidential ticket. Democrats might agree with the LP on certain issues, but I haven't seen this sort of alliance between Democrats and the LP.

As for whether libertarianism is more compatible with the Democratic or Republican parties, it depends very much on how one defines libertarianism. Certainly, I don't feel comfortable telling someone that he can't call himself libertarian because he is pro-life, even though I think it is clear that the pro-choice position is more libertarian.

And even if we could agree which position is more libertarian, that wouldn't tell us what the correct position is. Virtually every libertarian recognizes the need for some restrictions on individual liberties (recognizing that one person's liberty might infringe on another's). And for my part, I'm entirely comfortable favoring more social liberties than the average American and fewer economic ones (speaking very broadly).

Could that be because Democrats, when they break with the party, tend to go for more regulations, not less?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

'Character is both developed and revealed by tests, and all of life is a test.' anon

Interesting I took this version (Nolan Chart Survey) of that test and ended liberal leaning towards statist. But I have to say the many qualifications in the questions was a problem. I would never have used those specific definitions as the choices. It may just be all ideologies are personal mixes as in many ways I am more conservative than most but today would never use that word to describe myself.

While your OP was reasonable I am not a fan of Libertarianism, it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy. Every libertarian I know is a young person, usually upper middle to upper class, so it's easy to assume all you need is 'freedom.' I've written a lot about it and will link a few posts. Also see other tests, I am fascinated by the right left brain idea. Watching our grandchildren grow has been a nature/nurture lesson I missed with our own, being too busy with that thing called life and work.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/50564-libertarianism-in-a-nutshell-ii.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/189696-libertarian-flame.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question-4.html


Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Why is libertarianism wrong?
http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/types_of_libertarian1.jpg

"You have the ability to use both creativity and reality to process the information you receive. This is a unique gift that allows you to both focus on rules and regulations but to also act with creativity. You are able to adjust to change, even though you might not like it, and you can become emotionally involved in your work if it interests you." Right Brain vs Left Brain Creativity Test at The Art Institute of Vancouver


Other tests:

OkCupid | The Politics Test
Left Right* Hemisphere Brain Processing
Search Search for
Morality Quiz/Test your Morals, Values & Ethics - Your Morals.Org


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt in 'Ill Fares the Land'

You took the test, you didn't like that it shows you leaning statist, and you conclude that the test is flawed because you prefer different definitions.

The interesting thing is that the test does not include definitions. I came in at exactly the same place I always do on these types of tests, slightly left of center. Your problem is you support government intervention as a means to fix problems without actually considering what caused the problem. Most of the time government is part of the problem, something any honest person will admit. That does not mean government does not have a role, even in the problems it causes, but we have to understand that it is part of the problem before we can fix the problem.

You not only do not understand this, you refuse to accept it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Conservatism reminds me of........Mine, mine....mine

Why shouldn't you be able to keep as much of what you have earned as possible?

Start with humbling yourself, then say an honest prayer and ask God or Jesus for the answer to that question, that is.... if you are a Christian....I trust you will get your answer if you are opened to receive it.

The mine mine mine mine of the wealthy and other's attitude, is the movement of the antichrist....it can be no other thing....again, that is....IF you are a Christian.

Globalization of Greed! | Magazine Article | Tomorrow's World

You think the solution to moral problems is government?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

'Character is both developed and revealed by tests, and all of life is a test.' anon

Interesting I took this version (Nolan Chart Survey) of that test and ended liberal leaning towards statist. But I have to say the many qualifications in the questions was a problem. I would never have used those specific definitions as the choices. It may just be all ideologies are personal mixes as in many ways I am more conservative than most but today would never use that word to describe myself.

While your OP was reasonable I am not a fan of Libertarianism, it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy. Every libertarian I know is a young person, usually upper middle to upper class, so it's easy to assume all you need is 'freedom.' I've written a lot about it and will link a few posts. Also see other tests, I am fascinated by the right left brain idea. Watching our grandchildren grow has been a nature/nurture lesson I missed with our own, being too busy with that thing called life and work.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/50564-libertarianism-in-a-nutshell-ii.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/189696-libertarian-flame.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question-4.html


Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Why is libertarianism wrong?
http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/types_of_libertarian1.jpg

"You have the ability to use both creativity and reality to process the information you receive. This is a unique gift that allows you to both focus on rules and regulations but to also act with creativity. You are able to adjust to change, even though you might not like it, and you can become emotionally involved in your work if it interests you." Right Brain vs Left Brain Creativity Test at The Art Institute of Vancouver


Other tests:

OkCupid | The Politics Test
Left Right* Hemisphere Brain Processing
Search Search for
Morality Quiz/Test your Morals, Values & Ethics - Your Morals.Org


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt in 'Ill Fares the Land'

You are Proof positive of the ACCURACY of the Nolan Quiz..

I assume you scored HIGH statist no doubt. (BTW: statist is just an interpretation of answers INDEPENDENT of the chart or its axes. The questions are designed to answer two questions. One on social freedom the other on economic freedom)..

I am NOT going back to those cesspools of smears you posted in links. Not here -- not now. There's nothing to be gained between us by ridding you of misinformation and misinterpretation..

I'm really interested in finding the relative distance between Libertarians and the right-left camps. And which we have more actually in common that would move this country forward. My selfish reason for that is that I'm looking forward to elected 3rd party and Independent candidates being a lot more prevalent in the near future and I want to understand how coalitions will be made..

While I agree there is little positive gain in attempting to liberate midcan of his misinformation and misinterpretation, I usually respond to his posts simply to show others how uninformed he actually is. This might not convince him, or anyone else, but it can prevent someone equally as uneducated and uninformed from believing he actually understands the subject.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

To most folks, libertarians are just the fussy cousins of Republicans. But the reality is when you measure the political distances, we are equi-distant to both the Republican and Democrat party animals. This is apparent on the 2 dimensional Nolan Chart ---

Nolan Chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that is an improved locator of your political preference over the ultra trivial "left - right" stick chart. In fact, on the Nolan Chart -- we're a smidgeon closer to "moderate" but in reality -- anything but moderate.

It might get me uninvited from the "Conservative Clubhouse", but I believe the Lib Party is actually closer to the center of the DEM camp, than the REP camp. It's just that there is some INSURMOUNTABLE terrain between us because of the Collectivist leanings and general anti-free market feelings (ala "Occupy") in the DEM ranks.

Show me a DEM that believes in free markets and economic freedom being as important as social freedom and I contend we're connected.

We're connected because of the HUGE agreement on the proper use of projected military force, on issues of civil liberties like the Patriot Act, the concept of personal choices in medicinal, educational, personal and health matters, and the entire bill of rights. We also agree on ending corporate government collusion (tho probably disagree on which one causes the other).

So -- I don't buy the popular knowledge that we are just all Ron Pauls with additional social awkwardness. I see a lot of Moynihan, Feingold, Durbin, Conyers and Kucinich in there as well.

And except for the mistrust of Capitalism and the proximity to Collectivist solutions, most MAINSTREAM Dems make just as good neighbors as Republicans..

I dunno, the dems seem perfectly willing to start a war or make it bigger than the libertarians do. It was Obama that authorized the Afghan surge, got us into the Libyan war, and has been firing rockets into Pakistan and Yemen and other places. And 115 democrats did vote for the Iraqi war; I'm thinking the Dems are a lot more willing to project military force than the libertarians are.

Then there's this issue of civil rights and choices, I'd say the Dems are much more in favor of limiting both than the libertarians are. This is an area where the libertarians and the repubs are much more in sync. Surely you know that the democrats are far more interested in restricting freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. They are against choices for education (vouchers), health savings accounts, and privatizing SS. All of which libertarians want.

And I think you also are mistaken about democrats wanting to end corporate/gov't collusion; They'll say it all day long but they won't do it any more than the repubs will. No democrat will ever vote to reduce gov't spending. They want bigger gov't, more taxes, and more spending. Which makes them polar opposities of the libertarians who want as little as possible of all three.

Trying to find conviction and coherency in either party is difficult. And actually I tend to agree with you about which foxhole I'd have to jump into if fighting broke out.

Libertarians have the advantage of an unblemished record of non-performance. Honest appraisal. It's like having Rush Limbaugh do NFL commentary instead of Joe Montana. It boils down to whether you have a philosophical backbone that actually guides you thru all of the issues that you mentioned. I'm solidly in the Libertarian camp because it does serve as a sturdy guide to public policy.

There's enough division within the R & D camps that with OTHER CHOICES for party alignment -- there would be substantial migration. Look at the Progressive side of the Dems or the Tea Party side of the Repubs. ACTUALLY -- we generally feed from the MIDDLE of those camps.

The dissapointment is Obama's continuation of the War on Terror, War on Drugs, and inability to sell the key points Progressive agenda is an example. We got Progressive policy and rhetoric all right -- but NOT in the areas that are dear to the Revolution.

Corporate collusion has INCREASED greatly under his direct leadership. There is now Big Wind, Big Solar and a lot more room for lobbyists on healthcare, agriculture (because of food stamps), and finance. But Obama is NOT the Dem party. Most Dems I know still think this is the same party of JFK. And they are NOT signed up for the current Revolution.

When you REALLY GET DOWN to the issues you covered like commitment of offensive military action, civil liberties, and separating fed govt from industry, there IS NO definitive difference. For instance on issues like Asset Forfeiture, Search and Seizure and Eminent Domain you find only champions on BOTH SIDES willing to actually act. And by count -- there are just as many on the left as on the right. Bob Barr -- our last candidate for Prez -- had an epiphany about Civil Liberties after his experience in the Repub camp and became one of those. But I thank God reguarly for when John Conyers has his cogent moments and ACTS like a true Liberal..

I think the problem here is people assume politicians are normal human beings. I do think that most of them honestly intend to make a difference, but once they get there they either get chewed up and spit out, or they become the self serving, power hungry, narcissist it takes to survive in Washington.

 

[ladyliberal]

Hey -- my favorite LadyLiberal. The one I want to feel closer to ---

Our recent selection of "pragmatic politicians" certainly doesn't help my argument -- I know. But as a realist -- it moves us from a debating society with no plan for governing into the status of a party that wants to solve problems. I'll wager that Bob Barr for instance has had a "revelation" in terms of choice and freedom once he was liberated from the Republican dungeon.. We've flirted with Howard Stern as well and would welcome ANY refugees from conventional politics that wanted to support the Platform.

THere are MANY pro-life Democrats in office. Just as we have a number of pro-life libertarians. And it's a recent source of friction for us because it HAS to be addressed. But I'm more concerned about the mess we're in from rebuilding countries other than our own and a Congress that incapable of managing the monster that they created.

We should really look more at the COMMON IMPORTANT issues that could end America as we know it. Because you CAN'T continue to address social welfare in a broke-butt country.
Even the far left and labor now knows how bleak things can get when the fiscal situation gets out of hand. And we are breeding a new type of "fiscal conservative" who will largely spring from YOUR side of table. (Once the insurrection and Collectivist Revolution is defeated in November)

THere's also the "leftist dissappointment" factor with finally electing a Progressive to the Prez and getting so little for their efforts. There's gonna be a lot of soul searching in the Dem ranks (and maybe some navel gazing and wrath towards their choice of party as well).

I believe you'll see a drift in mainstream Dems TOWARDs fiscal responsibility and a blowback against all the class warfare and market negativism.. And MAYBE -- that will move us a lot closer to our buds on the left.. The ones that don't really hate Capitalism and free markets. And believe that freedoms have to be INDIVIDUAL and not so much group identity and divisiveness.

I will take your own example as permission to wander somewhat afield from the original topic of this forum (which as I understand it was whether the Libertarian Party is "closer" to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party).

- Despite the example of Howard Stern (who as far as I can tell is at least as likely to criticize Democrats as Republicans) I remain unconvinced that the Libertarian Party is as likely to ally itself with Democrats as Republicans.

- There are certainly pro-life Democrats and Libertarians. But when you say that a certain issue (here, abortion policy) is not important to you, we are shifting from an at least nominally objective measure (the Nolan Chart) into the subjective measure of those issues that are important to you personally.

- Depending on what you mean by "social welfare" and "broke-butt" I think you can continue to address social welfare in a broke-butt country through government policy. Certainly, basic government services such as police forces impact the welfare of society. And I believe even very poor countries provide for the material needs of their citizens through government policy, such as by subsidizing staple foods. Still, if your essential point here is that we should try to avoid becoming broke-butt, then I certainly agree with that.

- If your claim is that the November elections will favor the Republicans, I don't find this terribly likely. Most predictors give a slim advantage to the Democratic Presidential ticket, and the Democrats will almost certainly see substantial gains in the House. If, however, the Republicans do take the White House and the Senate, and hold the House then this will almost certainly pull the Democrats to the right on economic issues.

- Discussing the trends in the Democratic Party on "fiscal responsibility" would require a common definition between us of what policies are responsible. I doubt that is attainable.

 

[ladyliberal]

Could that be because Democrats, when they break with the party, tend to go for more regulations, not less?

If your point is that Democrats tend to be more economically authoritarian than Republicans, then I certainly agree.