Which came first slavery or the Bible?

Which came first slavery or the Bible?

  • The authors of the Bible invented slavery.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't care.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other. Explain

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

presonorek

Gold Member
Jun 7, 2015
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Alabama
Based upon a discussion with Rdean and Treeshepherd I have developed a question to consider.

Did the Israelites invent slavery?

Slavery is a 10,000 year old institution. It was a reality of the world we all came from. The first laws attempting to regulate slavery were an improvement over zero laws or moral parameters. The first attempts at creating moral parameters surrounding marriage were an improvement over prehistoric methods of simply capturing a woman and dragging her by the hair to the cave.

rdean perpetuates a fallacy, that somehow if ancient man were free of the Bible there would have been no slavery and the Women's Liberation Movement would have started 2,000 years ago. People of more subtle and nuanced intellect can see that modern sensibilities are the end result of a very long human social process.

The concept of freedom from slavery is rooted in the Bible. Virtually every abolitionist in American history was a fervent Christian. The leaders of the Civil Rights movement (MLK and others) were Christians, and the power of their movement was rooted in Biblical themes.

We see the end result of Christian values when the Amish forgave their attacker after he shot up their school house and killed elementary school girls in 2006. We see the same Christian values in the AME church members after 9 of their flock were massacred by Dylann Roof. They live by the Bible. Imagine that.
 
Based upon a discussion with Rdean and Treeshepherd I have developed a question to consider.

Did the Israelites invent slavery?

No. That's a ridiculous notion. If you believe the theory that humanity began in Africa, then slavery was invented there; it's been a feature of human history since before writing was invented.

Tree Shepperd is mostly right; most anti-slavery movements in the West come directly from Christian theology and Christians, especially in northern Europe, with the Irish missionaries of the 7th-8th centuries and the attempts to convert both the anglo-saxon and nordic colonizers of England, spreading later to northern France and beyond.

they weren't very successful, though, but it started the long cultural evolution process, one that wouldn't have happened at all under paganism.

Norman England
According to the Domesday Book census, over 10% of England's population in 1086 were slaves.[11][12] In 1102, the Church Council of London convened by Anselm issued a decree: "Let no one hereafter presume to engage in that nefarious trade in which hitherto in England men were usually sold like brute animals."[13] However, the Council had no legislative powers, and no act of law was valid unless signed by the monarch.

The influence of the new Norman aristocracy led to the decline of slavery in England. Contemporary writers noted that the Scottish and Welsh took captives as slaves during raids, a practice which was no longer common in England by the 12th century. However, by the start of the 13th century references to people being taken as slave stopped. While there was no legislation against slavery in Ireland and Wales,[14] William the Conqueror introduced a law preventing the sale of slaves overseas.[15] Historian John Gillingham opined that by about 1200 slavery in the British Isles was non-existent.[14]

Slavery in the British Isles - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It later revived, with 10's of thousands of Irish slaves sold off to plantation owners in the Caribbean and South America after the 'New World' was discovered, and anti-slavery movements never really took off in southern Europe, due to the proximity of Islamic states and their influence.

No record of any anti-slavery movements in Africa, which isn't surprising, given how lucrative the trade was for African kings since long before the Europeans came along; Muslims had been conducting a thriving trade in slaves almost from the founding of Islam. Most African and Muslim states had to be badgered into signing the League of Nations platform of outlawing slavery in 1923 or so, and still conduct slave trading businesses under the table to this day with relative impunity.
 
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I am one of those people who says you do not really start reading the Bible until you get to Exodus. Slavery existed in many civilizations long before the Bible was written.

In some cases I do concur with Picaro but I disagree that anti-slavery movement comes directly from the theology of Christianity.

The Christian theology does not readily lend itself to abolishing slavery. In fact, it tells how and who to enslave, how to deal with slaves and even what to do with rebellious and run away slaves. Enslaving,owning slaves, and punishing are not sinful if you follow the bible. Hence, Christianity directly lends itself to the institution of slavery not its abolition.

However Christians that extrapolated some of the ideas Christianity endorsed realized that slavery was immoral on their own. In other words, Christianity can indirectly provide the philosophy for abolition, and it takes a non-dogmatic christian with the insight to approach Christianity as a universal moral/philosophical system to realize this.

That is not a direct application of the Bible or of Christianity. Strangely, this is probably the best way to use religion(any religion) since it attacks the fundamental question "What is moral" the most directly. A question that is impossible to answer in any one tomb since the subject matter is truly vast and virtually limitless.
 
From my understanding, a good deal of the slaves/servants in the Bible are INDENTURED SERVANTS for the most part....they are fellow neighbors that owe the Land Owner money....there were not Banks to borrow from...you borrowed from those who had money and then indentured yourself to them, in order to pay back the money or whatever, through labor.
 
From my understanding, a good deal of the slaves/servants in the Bible are INDENTURED SERVANTS for the most part....they are fellow neighbors that owe the Land Owner money....there were not Banks to borrow from...you borrowed from those who had money and then indentured yourself to them, in order to pay back the money or whatever, through labor.

You could be right. Slaves were required to be released after 6 years. If they chose to come back then they could be your slave forever. That means that you really have to treat your slaves well for 6 years. You can't fake it for 6 years to trick them into being your slave forever. You truly had to treat your slaves well.

I think people confuse the slavery of the American colonies and the early United States with the slavery of the Old Testament.

One required compassion over your slaves, viewed them as equals and had no race element involved. One viewed blacks as substandard humans and treated them as property without restrictions.

As of 1981 slavery became illegal in every country in the world. The concept seems yucky to us. In recent times that wasn't the case. We act like we are morally superior to people of the past but we are just lemmings believing the common view of our time.

Exodus 21:1-6
1Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
 
Weren't the Israelis enslaved by the Egyptians?

Yes. That is probably why the Israelis developed a tradition of giving dignity and respect to their slaves. Slavery was an economic necessity of the times. (If we don't do it somebody else will kinda thing.) The Israelites set themselves apart by treating their slaves better than the Egyptians.

In today's economy slavery would be a burden that nobody would want. Why give someone a house, food and health care for 70 years when you can hire them for 9 months and be done with them?

Slavery is too expensive to be sustainable.
 
Yes. That is probably why the Israelis developed a tradition of giving dignity and respect to their slaves. Slavery was an economic necessity of the times. (If we don't do it somebody else will kinda thing.) The Israelites set themselves apart by treating their slaves better than the Egyptians.


Well, that was decent of them. :rolleyes-41:
 
Yes. That is probably why the Israelis developed a tradition of giving dignity and respect to their slaves. Slavery was an economic necessity of the times. (If we don't do it somebody else will kinda thing.) The Israelites set themselves apart by treating their slaves better than the Egyptians.


Well, that was decent of them. :rolleyes-41:

Nobody is morally superior just because they subscribe to the zeitgeist of their time.

Slavery is considered cruel today. Nobody gets a gold star for feeling that way.

The Israelis do deserve a gold story for resisting the zeitgeist of their time. That took guts. Being a lemming is easy and natural. They stood up against a cruel world where mistreating your slaves was the norm. You are caving to what is a normal belief. No points for you.

Saying slavery is bad in 2015 takes no moral courage whatsoever. It is more brave to cross the street than to stand up against slavery in 2015.

Comparing the mindset of someone in Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the mindset of an American in 2015 isn't comparing Apples and oranges. It is more like comparing apples and watch batteries.
 
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Weren't the Israelis enslaved by the Egyptians?

Yes. That is probably why the Israelis developed a tradition of giving dignity and respect to their slaves. Slavery was an economic necessity of the times. (If we don't do it somebody else will kinda thing.) The Israelites set themselves apart by treating their slaves better than the Egyptians.

By the Christian era most Jewish owned slaves in Judah were household servants, and it was required they convert to Judaism within a certain length of time, due to some dietary laws and other miscellanea. If they hadn't converted by the time alloted, they were sold back to the slavers. They constituted their own social class, proselytes, under Jewish legal codes.
 
Yes. That is probably why the Israelis developed a tradition of giving dignity and respect to their slaves. Slavery was an economic necessity of the times. (If we don't do it somebody else will kinda thing.) The Israelites set themselves apart by treating their slaves better than the Egyptians.


Well, that was decent of them. :rolleyes-41:

Nobody is morally superior just because they subscribe to the zeitgeist of their time.

Slavery is considered cruel today. Nobody gets a gold star for feeling that way.

The Israelis do deserve a gold story for resisting the zeitgeist of their time. That took guts. Being a lemming is easy and natural. They stood up against a cruel world where mistreating your slaves was the norm. You are caving to what is a normal belief. No points for you.

Saying slavery is bad in 2015 takes no moral courage whatsoever. It is more brave to cross the street than to stand up against slavery in 2015.

Comparing the mindset of someone in Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the mindset of an American in 2015 isn't comparing Apples and oranges. It is more like comparing apples and watch batteries.

Exactly. It's a completely fraudulent assumption of some sort of fake moral authority that isn't in any way justified.
 
Exactly. It's a completely fraudulent assumption of some sort of fake moral authority that isn't in any way justified.

Some people behave as though the Bible was written for the sole purpose of justifying slavery. I have a hard time believing that the Bible was written for the sole purpose of justifying slavery.

God said, "I am the I am". That means that power is what power is. It is what it is. The Bible teaches us how to survive in spite of the powers of this world.

There were instructions for slave owners. There were instructions for slaves.

If you treat your slaves poorly they could rebel and kill your family. If you rebel against your master then he can get pissed and kill you.

The Bible is a book that transcends boundaries of culture and time. Power always exist and sometimes that power is unjust. You can still survive under those unjust conditions if you follow certain attitudes and behaviors.

Slavery exists today in other forms. We can still learn the lessons of the Bible without owning slaves.

Pretending that the Bible is immoral because it addresses immoral situations is ridiculous and dishonest. We have to deal with immoral situations all the time. If the Bible would have ignored immoral situations it wouldn't have lasted even 100 years.

People who make ridiculous arguments against the Bible have no interest in learning what the Bible really teaches us.

No book older than 400 years old should be regarded as trash. To disregard proven literature is lazy and unwise.
 
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Slavery exists today in other forms. We can still learn the lessons of the Bible without owning slaves.

Indeed; ain't no doubt whatsoever. Just look at the labor practices in Red China and Viet Nam, Brazil, too, etc., just about anywhere. And yes, here in the U.S.
 
Indeed; ain't no doubt whatsoever. Just look at the labor practices in Red China and Viet Nam, Brazil, too, etc., just about anywhere. And yes, here in the U.S.

In the United States you can hire an employee for $7.25 an hour for 10 hours per week. That equates to $3,770 per year. You can fire them at any time and stop paying them altogether. Maintaining a slave for 70 years would cost a lot more than $3,770.

Are you being serious?
 
You can hire an illegal alien for less than that, and politicians from both 'Parties' are really busy seeing to it that illegal immigration continues.
 
Indeed; ain't no doubt whatsoever. Just look at the labor practices in Red China and Viet Nam, Brazil, too, etc., just about anywhere. And yes, here in the U.S.

In the United States you can hire an employee for $7.25 an hour for 10 hours per week. That equates to $3,770 per year. You can fire them at any time and stop paying them altogether. Maintaining a slave for 70 years would cost a lot more than $3,770.

Are you being serious?

Do you understand what I said? The only reason northern states did away with slavery was for the reasons you generally stated. As for the South, slavery was indeed profitable.

In Red China and other countries most of those factories are walled or fenced in, with the barb wire tops leaning inward, and the 'employees' have to sign 'contracts' that are for all practical purposes short term slavery deals. If you're invested in stock or bonds in any of the companies doing business there, or buying their products, you're participating in the slave trade there.

In the U.S., there are factories here using slave labor, as well as the sex slave trade going on; a lot of Asians, Russians, Mexicans are involved in it.
 
You can hire an illegal alien for less than that, and politicians from both 'Parties' are really busy seeing to it that illegal immigration continues.

I agree. If the immigration laws weren't so complicated then we could process these people properly.

I think the problem is our relationship with Mexico. Immigrants of the past and immigrants from other countries desire to be United States citizens. Most Mexicans are only interested in living here temporarily. They have no interest in becoming United States citizens.

I personally believe that there should be a large plot of land similar to Ellis Island where we process immigrants. You fill out a bunch of paperwork, check them for diseases, check them for criminal record in their home country, collect a large fee (maybe $5,000? It could fluctuate based upon conditions) and make them United States citizens. I just don't know if that would solve the problem because the Mexican immigrants have little interest in being United States citizens. They all plan on going back to Mexico.
 
Based upon a discussion with Rdean and Treeshepherd I have developed a question to consider.

Did the Israelites invent slavery?

Slavery is a 10,000 year old institution. It was a reality of the world we all came from. The first laws attempting to regulate slavery were an improvement over zero laws or moral parameters. The first attempts at creating moral parameters surrounding marriage were an improvement over prehistoric methods of simply capturing a woman and dragging her by the hair to the cave.

rdean perpetuates a fallacy, that somehow if ancient man were free of the Bible there would have been no slavery and the Women's Liberation Movement would have started 2,000 years ago. People of more subtle and nuanced intellect can see that modern sensibilities are the end result of a very long human social process.

The concept of freedom from slavery is rooted in the Bible. Virtually every abolitionist in American history was a fervent Christian. The leaders of the Civil Rights movement (MLK and others) were Christians, and the power of their movement was rooted in Biblical themes.

We see the end result of Christian values when the Amish forgave their attacker after he shot up their school house and killed elementary school girls in 2006. We see the same Christian values in the AME church members after 9 of their flock were massacred by Dylann Roof. They live by the Bible. Imagine that.


Oh good Lord....why on Earth would you take anything rDean said with even the smallest degree of legitimacy? Slavery has existed since the dawn of man. Perhaps he would like to explain how slavery existed in the Americas with the Incas, Mayans, etc LONG before Christianity was brought to the New World and existed in Egypt LONG before the Israelites came into the picture. Jeez...what will that clown think up next?
 

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