Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[manifold]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

 

[BDBoop]

I always fight for the woman's right to choose, but.

*and it's a huge butt*

........... IF I were to travel back in time 35 years and find myself in those shoes again, I would say the point of no return is what's known as 'quickening', i.e., when the mother can sense the baby moving. I would say other than that, mid point second trimester. So that's what; 18 weeks?

Edited to reflect: This is precluding finding out further in the pregnancy that there are significant health risks to mother and/or child.

 

[catzmeow]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Prior to 20 weeks gestation, abortion is not murder; after 24 weeks, abortion should be illegal. 20-24 weeks is a gray area for me. At 24 weeks, most fetuses can survive outside the womb with medical intervention, and at that point, I think the fetus's budding personhood trumps the mother's right to avoid being inconvenienced or harmed by the pregnancy.

 

[manifold]

I've read both your edits and have chosen to let my 'thanks' stand.

 

[hortysir]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Heartbeat


period

 

[freedombecki]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Heartbeat


period

According to one resource I read, the heartbeat starts at 18 days gestation in an unborn child.

As far as above 2 parameters are concerned, I am precluded from expressing any opinion that I may have on this delicate subject on both of the two counts.

Sorry.

 

[manifold]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Heartbeat


period

Hmmm?

About how far along does that happen? (I know I should remember ).

 

[hortysir]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Heartbeat


period

According to one resource I read, the heartbeat starts at 18 days gestation in an unborn child.

As far as above is concerned, I am precluded from expressing any opinion that I may have on this delicate subject.

Have fun.

I'm pretty heavily biased in the matter, too.

But I honestly feel that the heartbeat makes it a Life and, as such, should be the line.

 

[syrenn]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Prior to 20 weeks gestation, abortion is not murder; after 24 weeks, abortion should be illegal. 20-24 weeks is a gray area for me. At 24 weeks, most fetuses can survive outside the womb with medical intervention, and at that point, I think the fetus's budding personhood trumps the mother's right to avoid being inconvenienced or harmed by the pregnancy.

I agree... after 4 months a woman should know if she wants to carry a child to term or not.

 

[hortysir]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Heartbeat


period

Hmmm?

About how far along does that happen? (I know I should remember ).

Becki says 18 days, but IDK either, for certain.

Google ranges from 18 days to 6 weeks

*shrug*

 

[freedombecki]

Heartbeat


period

According to one resource I read, the heartbeat starts at 18 days gestation in an unborn child.

As far as above is concerned, I am precluded from expressing any opinion that I may have on this delicate subject.

Have fun.

I'm pretty heavily biased in the matter, too.

But I honestly feel that the heartbeat makes it a Life and, as such, should be the line.

Since mine is divine knowledge of life in the womb based on one of King David's psalms (139) it is not in accordance with the two parameters listed above. That's all I can say. I'm so sorry, but I respect the OPs desire to conduct a debate on this issue that is clinical in nature, and not spiritually-based according to anyone's personal interpretation of faith, which it would be in my case since in my church, we have Old Testament scholars of full understanding sitting next to Planned Parenthood leaders and workers. (go figure).. lololol

 

[syrenn]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

For me the line is drawn when the fetus can survive without a host. A stand alone life. A life without the requirement of being connected to another living being.

By the time a fetus is at that point it is a baby..... and if a woman wanted to have an abortion she should have done it well before that point.

I do not agree with late term abortion unless it is for medical reasons.

 

[High_Gravity]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Heartbeat


period

^ This.

 

[freedombecki]

Heartbeat


period

Hmmm?

About how far along does that happen? (I know I should remember ).

Becki says 18 days, but IDK either, for certain.

Google ranges from 18 days to 6 weeks

*shrug*

My source says it is heard at 18 days gestation. Equipment may have improved since the 6 weeks figure was known as accurate. My mother had two children after I finished the 8th grade. She would let children in the family listen to them kick at about 5 months. My brother had his face to close and got kicked. hahahaha

 

[JakeStarkey]

Only in cases of rape or incest (within 18 weeks) or in case of a serious threat to the mother's physical health.

No other exceptions.

 

[BDBoop]

And that's why Roe v Wade and the one that followed (can never remember) HAVE to be on the books. Because what works for me doesn't work for you or Beck or Jake (who shall never be pregnant anyway).

Each woman has to make her own decisions and handle any fallout that may or may not occur. This isn't a spectator sport. We don't get to Monday morning quarterback.

 

[manifold]

Each woman has to make her own decisions and handle any fallout that may or may not occur. This isn't a spectator sport. We don't get to Monday morning quarterback.

Or conversely, you just might earn yourself a lifetime of monday morning quarterbacking.

 

[Amelia]

Is there a medical consensus on when the fetus can feel pain?

 

[JakeStarkey]

As long as men are part of lawmaking, we will have our input and carry the day where we can.

Each woman has to make her own decisions and handle any fallout that may or may not occur. This isn't a spectator sport. We don't get to Monday morning quarterback.

Or conversely, you just might earn yourself a lifetime of monday morning quarterbacking.

 

[freedombecki]

Is there a medical consensus on when the fetus can feel pain?

Yes, Amelia. I posted the video showing the fetus in an abortion trying to elude the things they were poking him with a couple of weeks ago. It fought for its life with all its being, somehow fully aware of the danger and the location of the extinguishing equipment. It was considered to horrible and removed by the mods.

The physician discussing the fetus' elusive actions was quite clinical, but the skull removed before the body was taken out was a little too much of an ick factor for most people.

I've had university work in the anatomy using human cadavers donated to science. I don't see life, disability, dismemberment and death as some others, although I was the first to faint on day one in class.

Even back in the 80s when I took that class, there were studies being examined that claimed fetuses can feel pain. I didn't know they knew they were being threatened, though, until I located that video which must not be shared here. Oh, and the fetus/victim was 12 weeks when it was trying to get away from its certain death by extermination equipment.

You get over ick after dissecting about 4 cadavers.