Where is Murtha?

[CSM]

So it is your position that if a pilot told his commanding Officer he no longer wanted to fly and was not going to take the flight physical that he could be forced to take it anyway?

It is my position that it was sleazy of George Bush to slide into the national guard while his less affluent peers were being sent off to Nam... allow the military to train him to fly... and then not complete his commitment.... and then, years later, let his unsavory cohorts denigrate the service of a man who did two tours in the war zone and was highly decorated for that service.

Two tours? when was that?

And your cute little Bush love poem commentary by the air force colonel in the republican propaganda website failed to point out that Bush, after basic flight training, got to chose his aircraft... and the F-102 that he chose had ALREADY been earmarked for removal from overseas service and he, therefore, KNEW that he would be able to avoid Vietnam by chosing that aircraft... and then, he STILL felt no compunction to stay and finish his tour - all the while, his peers were dying inthe jungle.

Ya forgot to mention that the F-102 was the ONLY fighter aircraft available to him in that particular unit. Kinda hard to volunteer to fly something that isn't there.

In Bush's case his command allowed him to finish service and made NO official comments about his loss of flight status. Instead allowing him BY order to finish his obligation with desk duty and then authorizing him to leave service early. AND gave him an Honorable Discharge.

ALL of which was standard practice for ANYONE in the Air National Guard and during that time period the Air Force also.

I do not believe that it was standard practice for ANY branch of the military to not give a shit about pilots who cavalierly refused to take their flight physicals and instead to reward them for such disobedience by giving them early outs. I believe that Dubya had a little help in that regard, just like he had a little help jumping over hundreds of more qualified appicants to get into the TANG in the first place. Hmmm...care to tell us which applicants were passed over in deference to Bush? How were they more qualified and can you prove that claim? Just because you say so doesn't make it true. And some of us veterans look askance at such behavior (that would be ME) Yet some don't mind embracing those who went to Canada to avoid the draft or got college deferments ... while others chose to deify him and excuse and minimize any failings in his past simply because of his party.... Oh, you mean like ignoring Kerry's traitorous actions as a Naval Reserve Officer in making false accusations regarding atrocities in VN or in giving aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war (that would be YOU - and you have the gall to call ME a partisan hack!)

But you ARE a partisan hack...you admit to being one!

Kerry served TWO tours???? I musta missed that one...I am under the impression that he served a total of 5 months. Less than a full tour.

 

[CSM]

didja miss this one?

Truthfully, I think he has you mixed up with another poster who did indeed assert as he claims you did.

It was NOT MM who expressed that opinion.

 

[CSM]

Kerry served TWO tours???? I musta missed that one...I am under the impression that he served a total of 5 months. Less than a full tour.

Ah, after thinking about it, I guess you mean the tour he spent on the USS Gridley as an electronics officer. I gotchya.

 

[Alpha1]

So it is your position that if a pilot told his commanding Officer he no longer wanted to fly and was not going to take the flight physical that he could be forced to take it anyway?

It is my position that it was sleazy of George Bush to slide into the national guard while his less affluent peers were being sent off to Nam... allow the military to train him to fly... and then not complete his commitment.... and then, years later, let his unsavory cohorts denigrate the service of a man who did two tours in the war zone and was highly decorated for that service.

And your cute little Bush love poem commentary by the air force colonel in the republican propaganda website failed to point out that Bush, after basic flight training, got to chose his aircraft... and the F-102 that he chose had ALREADY been earmarked for removal from overseas service and he, therefore, KNEW that he would be able to avoid Vietnam by chosing that aircraft... and then, he STILL felt no compunction to stay and finish his tour - all the while, his peers were dying inthe jungle.

In Bush's case his command allowed him to finish service and made NO official comments about his loss of flight status. Instead allowing him BY order to finish his obligation with desk duty and then authorizing him to leave service early. AND gave him an Honorable Discharge.

ALL of which was standard practice for ANYONE in the Air National Guard and during that time period the Air Force also.

I do not believe that it was standard practice for ANY branch of the military to not give a shit about pilots who cavalierly refused to take their flight physicals and instead to reward them for such disobedience by giving them early outs. I believe that Dubya had a little help in that regard, just like he had a little help jumping over hundreds of more qualified appicants to get into the TANG in the first place. And some of us veterans look askance at such behavior (that would be ME)... while others chose to deify him and excuse and minimize any failings in his past simply because of his party....(that would be YOU - and you have the gall to call ME a partisan hack!)

Speaking of denigrating the service of a man who that actually served, as opposed to some that are truely sleazy....lets compare notes....

While some make up lies about a fighter pilot, a man that actually served in the US military, lets look at and not forget the quotes and record of a tried and true draft dodger.....lets look at FACTS and not opinion and innuendo and lies and unproven theory.....

Lets deal with the FACTS of a self admitted DRAFT DODGER and hero of left....Who shall remain nameless...



Infamous quotes from a self-admitted draft dodger:

"First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft"

"ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. "

"After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm."

"At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1 - D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of self-regard and self-confidence really set in"

"The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Record of a REAL DRAFT DODGER:


----? registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft.

Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.

----? classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.

....? reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.

----?ordered to report for induction on July 28,1969.

----? dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military.

----? reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col.E.Holmes. and takes oath of enlistment.

----? fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.

----? reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and ----? now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) 'registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction'.

----? birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction, is INELIGIBLE!

----? runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.

----? runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976),while a fugitive from justice.

----? receives pardon on January 21, 1977 from Carter.

----? FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President.

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by ----?

 

[CSM]

Speaking of denigrating the service of a man who that actually served, as opposed to some that are truely sleazy....lets compare notes....

While some make up lies about a fighter pilot, a man that actually served in the US military, lets look at and not forget the quotes and record of a tried and true draft dodger.....lets look at FACTS and not opinion and innuendo and lies and unproven theory.....

Lets deal with the FACTS of a self admitted DRAFT DODGER and hero of left....Who shall remain nameless...



Infamous quotes from a self-admitted draft dodger:

"First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft"

"ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. "

"After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm."

"At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1 - D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of self-regard and self-confidence really set in"

"The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Record of a REAL DRAFT DODGER:


----? registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft.

Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.

----? classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.

....? reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.

----?ordered to report for induction on July 28,1969.

----? dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military.

----? reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col.E.Holmes. and takes oath of enlistment.

----? fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.

----? reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and ----? now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) 'registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction'.

----? birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction, is INELIGIBLE!

----? runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.

----? runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976),while a fugitive from justice.

----? receives pardon on January 21, 1977 from Carter.

----? FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President.

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by ----?

This same guy used family/political connections to get into the reserves.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So it is your position that if a pilot told his commanding Officer he no longer wanted to fly and was not going to take the flight physical that he could be forced to take it anyway?

It is my position that it was sleazy of George Bush to slide into the national guard while his less affluent peers were being sent off to Nam... allow the military to train him to fly... and then not complete his commitment.... and then, years later, let his unsavory cohorts denigrate the service of a man who did two tours in the war zone and was highly decorated for that service.

And your cute little Bush love poem commentary by the air force colonel in the republican propaganda website failed to point out that Bush, after basic flight training, got to chose his aircraft... and the F-102 that he chose had ALREADY been earmarked for removal from overseas service and he, therefore, KNEW that he would be able to avoid Vietnam by chosing that aircraft... and then, he STILL felt no compunction to stay and finish his tour - all the while, his peers were dying inthe jungle.

In Bush's case his command allowed him to finish service and made NO official comments about his loss of flight status. Instead allowing him BY order to finish his obligation with desk duty and then authorizing him to leave service early. AND gave him an Honorable Discharge.

ALL of which was standard practice for ANYONE in the Air National Guard and during that time period the Air Force also.

I do not believe that it was standard practice for ANY branch of the military to not give a shit about pilots who cavalierly refused to take their flight physicals and instead to reward them for such disobedience by giving them early outs. I believe that Dubya had a little help in that regard, just like he had a little help jumping over hundreds of more qualified appicants to get into the TANG in the first place. And some of us veterans look askance at such behavior (that would be ME)... while others chose to deify him and excuse and minimize any failings in his past simply because of his party....(that would be YOU - and you have the gall to call ME a partisan hack!)

You would be badly mistaken. The Air National Guard is hardly a cushy job. An Interceptor pilot on call is hardly a safe cushy position. And that he logged hundreds of extra hours in the aircraft further puts the lie to your claims.

But then you DO have a history here of maligning other service members that do not scrape and bow to you, now don't you.

Answer some simple questions Captain.... were you EVER on flight status? Were you ever in command of pilots on flight status? Did you EVER serve in the National Guard? Were you in either the Air Force or the Air National Guard during the years in question?

Now before you answer remember your previous claims made here on this board that because you had experience 20 years ago it makes you a duty expert now and allows you to dismiss anything from anyone that does not have the same experience.

I was in the Guard I know how it works, IN fact I was in charge of personnel folders, being in the 2nd highest Hqs unit in the State. Anyone could request just what Bush requested and it was STANDARD procedure to accomodate them. I would know since I had to handle their records.

Further he met his flight commitment, and yes he could in fact refuse flight status. He had no reason to remain in a flight status and one must assume by the absence of any adverse action by his Commanding Officer he agreed. He had in fact done a similar request between initial training and going to flight school and that TOO was allowed.

Do keep maligning fellow veterans and service members, your pretty consistant on that point. Here I have an idea, go to your closest Air national Guard base and tell all the pilots there what COWARDS they are for not going to Iraq or Afghanistan, be sure to report back to us their reaction.

 

[maineman]

You would be badly mistaken. The Air National Guard is hardly a cushy job. An Interceptor pilot on call is hardly a safe cushy position. And that he logged hundreds of extra hours in the aircraft further puts the lie to your claims.my claim was that he didn't go to Nam.... try putting the lie to that!

But then you DO have a history here of maligning other service members that do not scrape and bow to you, now don't you. no

Answer some simple questions Captain it's Commander, thank you! Should I purposely misstate your paygrade?.... were you EVER on flight status? no. were YOU? Were you ever in command of pilots on flight status? no. were YOU? Did you EVER serve in the National Guard? no. did YOU? Were you in either the Air Force or the Air National Guard during the years in question?no. were YOU?

Now before you answer remember your previous claims made here on this board that because you had experience 20 years ago it makes you a duty expert now and allows you to dismiss anything from anyone that does not have the same experience.I would never make such a claim about the intracasies of Air National Guard service, nor have I

I was in the Guard I know how it works, IN fact I was in charge of personnel folders, being in the 2nd highest Hqs unit in the State. Anyone could request just what Bush requested and it was STANDARD procedure to accomodate them. I would know since I had to handle their records. and here I thought you were a gunnery sergeant! But tell me, were you in the Guard during Vietnam?

Further he met his flight commitment, and yes he could in fact refuse flight status. He had no reason to remain in a flight status and one must assume by the absence of any adverse action by his Commanding Officer he agreed.

one MUST assume nothing of the sort. One MIGHT ALSO assume that the fact that his dad was a politician on the national stage, caused the TANG heirarchy to handle him with kid gloves He had in fact done a similar request between initial training and going to flight school and that TOO was allowed. ditto

Do keep maligning fellow veterans and service members, your pretty consistant on that point. Here I have an idea, go to your closest Air national Guard base and tell all the pilots there what COWARDS they are for not going to Iraq or Afghanistan, be sure to report back to us their reaction.

I never unjustly malign fellow veterans and service members...but hey... haven't I read you blasting LT Kerry? Or doesn't that count?

And I think the only time I would consider saying that to an air national guard pilot is if he tried to paint himself as a hero while simultaneously defaming one of those folks who DID go to Iraq or Afghanistan in order to win a political election.

 

[CSM]

Objectively, neither man (Kerry or Bush) did anything unusual for the period in which they served. Did they manipulate the system....sure they did but within the bounds of the regs that were in place at the time. Neither ran off to Canada or some such thing.

Arguing the relative merits of their individual service is a waste of time. There are many who went to VN and served honorably but never got any award for bravery. Many served during that period and never went to VN at all. Their service still had value.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Alpha1]

On May 16, 1958 the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG), with its five new squadrons, was formed to support the 111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron. In August 1960 the unit was one of the first to transition to the F-102A all-weather fighter-interceptor and began a 24-hour runway alert commitment as part of the North American air defense network.
------------------------------

The 147th earned its first Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966 when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units."

From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th participated in "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War.(Bush joined in 1968)

With the continued draw-down of air defense units in the United States, the 147th FIG came off runway alert on Jan. 1, 1970 to start a new mission: training all F-102 pilots in the United States for the Air National Guard.

Squadron service of F-102A

111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Texas ANG, Ellington ANGS, 1960 to 1975. Transitioned to F-101B 1975.
--------------------------------

Now ... are YOU trying to tell us that the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Texas ANG, Ellington ANGS, had something NEWER than the F-102 ?
Is that what you're telling us ????

YOU never did answer this point from CSM.....care to explain ?
Or...just admit you're wrong again

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You would be badly mistaken. The Air National Guard is hardly a cushy job. An Interceptor pilot on call is hardly a safe cushy position. And that he logged hundreds of extra hours in the aircraft further puts the lie to your claims.my claim was that he didn't go to Nam.... try putting the lie to that!

But then you DO have a history here of maligning other service members that do not scrape and bow to you, now don't you. no

Answer some simple questions Captain it's Commander, thank you! Should I purposely misstate your paygrade?.... were you EVER on flight status? no. were YOU? Were you ever in command of pilots on flight status? no. were YOU? Did you EVER serve in the National Guard? no. did YOU? Were you in either the Air Force or the Air National Guard during the years in question?no. were YOU?

Now before you answer remember your previous claims made here on this board that because you had experience 20 years ago it makes you a duty expert now and allows you to dismiss anything from anyone that does not have the same experience.I would never make such a claim about the intracasies of Air National Guard service, nor have I

I was in the Guard I know how it works, IN fact I was in charge of personnel folders, being in the 2nd highest Hqs unit in the State. Anyone could request just what Bush requested and it was STANDARD procedure to accomodate them. I would know since I had to handle their records. and here I thought you were a gunnery sergeant! But tell me, were you in the Guard during Vietnam?

Further he met his flight commitment, and yes he could in fact refuse flight status. He had no reason to remain in a flight status and one must assume by the absence of any adverse action by his Commanding Officer he agreed.

one MUST assume nothing of the sort. One MIGHT ALSO assume that the fact that his dad was a politician on the national stage, caused the TANG heirarchy to handle him with kid gloves He had in fact done a similar request between initial training and going to flight school and that TOO was allowed. ditto

Do keep maligning fellow veterans and service members, your pretty consistant on that point. Here I have an idea, go to your closest Air national Guard base and tell all the pilots there what COWARDS they are for not going to Iraq or Afghanistan, be sure to report back to us their reaction.

I never unjustly malign fellow veterans and service members...but hey... haven't I read you blasting LT Kerry? Or doesn't that count?

And I think the only time I would consider saying that to an air national guard pilot is if he tried to paint himself as a hero while simultaneously defaming one of those folks who DID go to Iraq or Afghanistan in order to win a political election.

Well lets look at your last statement first. PROVIDE any source that backs up the claim Bush did anything of the sort. What you will find is that in fact BUSH openly denounced the Swift boat veterans actions and ask them to stop. Be so kind as to show us where Bush EVER claimed he was a Hero. Kerry now, he did make those claims, and made some pretty absurd claims along with them, all proven to not be true. The only person that did NOT condemn the slander of another veteran would be Kerry while running for President.

As for your claim you do not mailgn other Veterans, lets ask the other Veterans here if you have ever made slanderous remarks and implied or directly accused them of lying about their service, shall we? As for me you just did it again to me. Since I arrived here you have done nothing but denegrate my service. Called me a liar, which you JUST repeated in this quoted post. Demanded I prove I ever served. Make fun of my rank all the time. Shall I go on Commander? By the way moron, Captain, last I checked, is senior to Commander in the Navy, so being offended I accidently promoted you is an interesting tact to take.

Lets refresh ourselves shall we? I have on numerous occasions on this board DEFENDED your service, attacking people that would demean it or question it. Remind when the last time you did the same for me? Unlike you I have NEVER questioned your claims, even when defending myself all I did is state if I posted proof I expected you to do the same.

Unlike your claims against Bush my gripes with Kerry are factual and backed up by real evidence, not manufactured cheap forgeries so badly done a blogger could point them out with out ever even seeing the documents.

Remind us of the national Stage Bush Senior was on in 1967 and 1968? Tell us his powerful position or positions held back then, one that would allow him to coerce a serving career General.

Further back up your claims, show us proof he passed over ANYONE. Give us some names of the applicants and their qualifications that got denied entry into the Texas Air National Guard. It sure can not be a hard task, you and the left repeat it often enough.

Provide us another model of Fighter or Interceptor that was present in Bush's unit, that he could have trained on and been still IN the unit in 1968/69. One that the Unit would have wanted him trained on.

Remind me again how your service in Lebanon in the early 1980's makes you a duty expert on Iraq AND allows you to simply dismiss anyone that did not serve in Iraq or in Lebanon 27 years ago?

I was in the Guard in 1978/79 shortly after Vietnam. Further I was in the Marine Corps during the draw down in the early 90's, a similar event to pilots and others come back from Vietnam and not having billets or filling the needs of the military. The Airforce in particular comes to mind. They offered 15 year retirements, they offered to forgive mandatory service for school or training to pilots that wanted out. Same with Mandatory service for promotions. In fact of all the services, the Airforce was the one that offered the most incentives and the most options to draw down for their career force.

Here let me provide you with my dates so you can make some more ignorant personal insults and attacks on my service.

I was in the Army from Nov 1974 to May 1975, I was Honorably Discharged for personal reasons. Having served less than 180 days I received no benefits. I was 17 at the time.

I served in the Washington State National Guard from December 1978 till I joined the Marine Corps in July 1979. I was recommended for selection and promotion to 2nd Lt. The board felt I needed to serve longer than 6 months to be promoted and recommended I reapply in 1980.

I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 1979 to the end of May 1995. I was medically retired officially in 1999. You have to spend 5 years on the temporary Disabled list for 5 years or until they determine the condition will not improve, which ever comes first. I was a GySgt at that time. I was selected for GySgt in 1989 and promoted in 1990. ( I may have to check that, I may have been selected in 1988, but I believe 1989 is correct)

 

[Alpha1]

Some hacks will defend a REAL, SELF-ADMITTED DRAFT DODGER, while denigrating a National Guard fighter pilot...without batting an eye....

Thinks nothing of a short lived tour of his self-defined VN hero, that had the balls to make movies of himself "in combat"....nothing curious there, for the hacks...

Gunny..you don't owe anybody an explanation of your service...

 

[maineman]

On May 16, 1958 the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG), with its five new squadrons, was formed to support the 111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron. In August 1960 the unit was one of the first to transition to the F-102A all-weather fighter-interceptor and began a 24-hour runway alert commitment as part of the North American air defense network.
------------------------------

The 147th earned its first Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966 when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units."

From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th participated in "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War.(Bush joined in 1968)

With the continued draw-down of air defense units in the United States, the 147th FIG came off runway alert on Jan. 1, 1970 to start a new mission: training all F-102 pilots in the United States for the Air National Guard.

Squadron service of F-102A

111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Texas ANG, Ellington ANGS, 1960 to 1975. Transitioned to F-101B 1975.
--------------------------------

Now ... are YOU trying to tell us that the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Texas ANG, Ellington ANGS, had something NEWER than the F-102 ?
Is that what you're telling us ????

YOU never did answer this point from CSM.....care to explain ?
Or...just admit you're wrong again

I think that all F-102's were pulled back from pacific theater forward deployments in 1968.

 

[maineman]

Some hacks will defend a REAL, SELF-ADMITTED DRAFT DODGER, while denigrating a National Guard fighter pilot...without batting an eye....

Thinks nothing of a short lived tour of his self-defined VN hero, that had the balls to make movies of himself "in combat"....nothing curious there, for the hacks...

Gunny..you don't owe anybody an explanation of your service...

what draft dodger did I ever defend?

 

[maineman]

As for your claim you do not mailgn other Veterans, lets ask the other Veterans here if you have ever made slanderous remarks and implied or directly accused them of lying about their service, shall we? please doAs for me you just did it again to me. I did no such thingSince I arrived here you have done nothing but denegrate my service. I have not denigrated your service Called me a liar, which you JUST repeated in this quoted post.you have a reading comprehension problem...I did not call you a liar in th eabove post Demanded I prove I ever served. Make fun of my rank all the time. I have never made fun of your rank gunny. I only note it. Shall I go on Commander? By the way moron, Captain, last I checked, is senior to Commander in the Navy, so being offended I accidently promoted you is an interesting tact to take.no shit? captain is higher than commander? thanks for reminding me. The fact is, your calling me a captain is sarcastic.... but that's ok for you to do. I forgot.

Lets refresh ourselves shall we? I have on numerous occasions on this board DEFENDED your service, attacking people that would demean it or question it. Remind when the last time you did the same for me? remind me of the last time someone demeaned your serviceUnlike you I have NEVER questioned your claims, even when defending myself all I did is state if I posted proof I expected you to do the same.you may not have questioned my service, you just suggested that, unlike marine heroes serving in the same unit as me, I didn't learn anything from that service

Unlike your claims against Bush my gripes with Kerry are factual and backed up by real evidence, not manufactured cheap forgeries so badly done a blogger could point them out with out ever even seeing the documents.oh...you mean the documented lies of the SBVT guys?

Here let me provide you with my dates so you can make some more ignorant personal insults and attacks on my service.

I was in the Army from Nov 1974 to May 1975, I was Honorably Discharged for personal reasons. Having served less than 180 days I received no benefits. I was 17 at the time.

I served in the Washington State National Guard from December 1978 till I joined the Marine Corps in July 1979. I was recommended for selection and promotion to 2nd Lt. The board felt I needed to serve longer than 6 months to be promoted and recommended I reapply in 1980.

I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 1979 to the end of May 1995. I was medically retired officially in 1999. You have to spend 5 years on the temporary Disabled list for 5 years or until they determine the condition will not improve, which ever comes first. I was a GySgt at that time. I was selected for GySgt in 1989 and promoted in 1990. ( I may have to check that, I may have been selected in 1988, but I believe 1989 is correct)

You are a great american, thank you for your service!

 

[Alpha1]

I think that all F-102's were pulled back from pacific theater forward deployments in 1968.

Lets give the pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group and the Air National Guard, their due, and cut the uninformed bullshit...

Just FYI.....

George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger, popularly known as "the Deuce." The F-102 may have been old but was far from useless, and it continued to serve in large numbers with both Air Force and Air National Guard units well into the 1970s. Furthermore, the F-102 was deployed to Vietnam throughout most of the conflict, and the aircraft proved its value early by deterring North Vietnamese pilots from crossing the border to attack the South. Perhaps more importantly, the F-102 and its Air National Guard pilots performed a vital role in defending the continental United States from nuclear attack.

The Air National Guard has often been ridiculed as a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. However, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in Thailand since 1961 and South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the region as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.

USAF F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in both nations throughout most of the Vietnam War. The Delta Dagger was based at Tan Son Nhut, Bien Hoa, and Da Nang in South Vietnam and also stood alert at Don Muang and Udorn in Thailand. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. The F-102 was considered one of the most useful air defense aircraft in theater because it had the fastest response time of any fighter stationed in South Vietnam.

Service far more righteous than dodging the draft....with letters to friendly Colonel Holmes for help....

 

[maineman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-102_Delta_Dagger

"Operations with both the F-102A and TF-102A two-seater (which was used in a Forward Air Control role because its two seats and 2.75-in. rockets offered good versatility for the mission) in Vietnam until 1968 when all aircraft were sent back to the United States."

 

[Gunny]

I never unjustly malign fellow veterans and service members...but hey... haven't I read you blasting LT Kerry? Or doesn't that count?

And I think the only time I would consider saying that to an air national guard pilot is if he tried to paint himself as a hero while simultaneously defaming one of those folks who DID go to Iraq or Afghanistan in order to win a political election.

1. Bush never painted himself anything. You Democrats have spent 8 years trying to make people give a crap about your unsupported version of his National Guard Service.

So, you ARE unjustly maligning a veteran, but not for his service ... solely because he is a Republican. If Audie Murphy was a Republican y'all be trying to dump on HIM.

2. As far as blasting Kerry goes, it's as simple as this: He is either a liar, or he was a piss-poor, derelict in his duty Naval Officer. Choose one.

I assume you know THIS ... what is the FIRST thing a military person is supposed to do when they are either ordered to commit a crime, or are witness to a crime? Report it immediately to the next higher up in the chain of command, right?

So, when Kerry went before Congress and confessed to participating in, and witnessing war crimes, WHERE WAS THE BACKUP DOCUMENTATION? Where are Kerry's reports to his CO?

There are none. No evidence that he reported anything. Yet, five years later he reports it to Congress?

Nothing but common sense and logic here ... he either lied to Congress or was a war criminal and/or derelict in his duty to report a crime.

That's not bashing. REAL questions that place a "?" in front of Kerry's credibility and morals.

 

[maineman]

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_1.html

During the early 1960s, the F-102A was gradually replaced in the ADC by the McDonnell F-101B Voodoo and the Convair F-106 Delta Dart. By mid-1961, the number of F-102As in service with the ADC was down to 221. However, by the end of 1969, with the exception of a squadron maintained in Iceland, all ADC F-102As had been transferred to the Air National Guard. The F-102As stationed in the Pacific had been withdrawn in December of 1969.

 

[Gunny]

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_1.html

During the early 1960s, the F-102A was gradually replaced in the ADC by the McDonnell F-101B Voodoo and the Convair F-106 Delta Dart. By mid-1961, the number of F-102As in service with the ADC was down to 221. However, by the end of 1969, with the exception of a squadron maintained in Iceland, all ADC F-102As had been transferred to the Air National Guard. The F-102As stationed in the Pacific had been withdrawn in December of 1969.

Interesting. In 1969, my Little League Coach and Cub Scout Den Mother's husband was an F-102 pilot in the USAF flying out of NAS Key West, as was his next door neighbor.

I know that for a fact because I was an airplane nut at the time, and our Cub Scout Den got to go out to NAS Key West and crawl all over the Capt's F-102 and sit in the cockpit.

 

[maineman]

Gunny:

I am not maligning his service. I am calling it what it really was.

I have several high school acquaintances who got drafted for Vietnam. I have a handful of them that did not come back. I have several other friends from that era who were LUCKY enough to get into the Illinois National Guard. They - and nearly every other member of the Illinois national guard in the late 1960's knew that, by being in the guard, their chances of going to Vietnam were significantly reduced and that was one of the prime motivations for getting into the organization: they were interested in self preservation. They didn't want to die in the jungle half way around the world before they ever had a chance to get married and have children and a life. I am sure that is why most Guard members nation wide were in the guard in the late 60's. That was reality. Now if you want to try and get on some high horse and claim that all those national guardsmen joined because they really couldn't wait to get to vietnam, go for it.

I must admit, that I am not sure I know what years you served in the marine corps or whether you were in Nam. As I said, I was never in country and I am quite glad that I avoided it. I do have many classmates and acquaintances who were in country and several of them - mostly army and marine officers I served with in the UN - that had done multiple tours in Vietnam. I have kept in touch with many of them over the years... one in particular- a green beret - that had done three full tours. The stories he told me about what went on are quite similar to those related to the congressional committee by young Lt Kerry. I think you do him and most vietnam vets a disservice when you judge him so harshly for what he saw and allowed... and yet you completely ignore and marginalize the heroism he showed on several occasions.... and you marginalize that heroism, it would seem, simply because he was a democrat?