Where is Murtha?

[maineman]

Maineman,

You dont think that it is wrong to get up in front of our nations press corps and condemn Marines before any investigation has been completed, WHILE you sit in a position of power, IN ORDER TO ADVANCE your own political agenda.

You dont think thats wrong in and of itself...? Not even mentioning the fact that the person that did this convicted and condemened these same Marines of crimes they did not even commit... in order to advance his own political agenda.

You dont find the whole thing representative of the worst kind of scumbag this nation has to offer?

SR

no. Like I said, for him to use the word "murder" was wrong and he should issue a retraction and an apology.

oh.. and what is different about your two initial questions? they seem basically the same to me.

 

[SR_fullpolitics]

no. Like I said, for him to use the word "murder" was wrong and he should issue a retraction and an apology.

maineman,

Arent there other aspects of this entire episode that are wrong in your estimation?

Do you believe that a sitting member of the US House of Representatives should be holding press conferences and blatantly lying about service members in order to advance a political agenda?

Do you believe that members of our Congress, should be telling lies, using their podium and mega phone through the press to slander US Marines in order to advance their political agenda?

Do you believe that Congressmen should convict and condemn service members DURING THE FIGHT of crimes in the court of public opinion, by simply making up lies in order to advance their political agenda?

Dont you think that what Murtha did was entirely politically motivated, and that his actions and his intentions go far beyond the simple misuse of words maineman?

SR

 

[doniston]

Just one of my many amazing powers!

I base my assertion on discussions on this board that have occured long before you came along to enlighten us. For example, MaineMan has posted the implication that hypocricy is acceptable as long as it coincides with his views and does not become a political liability.

The fact that you apparently will not criticize Murtha for a blatant abuse of political power (the military refers to it as "undue command influence") for his own advantage makes me suspect you fall into the same category as many others who post here.

And you fall into the same catogory as others on this board who are constantly beating dead horses. You disagree with Murtha's actions, Fine, so do I, but the issue is passe' (or at least certainly should be)-- Next you will be rehashing the Clinton/Lewinsksi affair------AGAIN.

 

[SR_fullpolitics]

And you fall into the same catogory as others on this board who are constantly beating dead horses. You disagree with Murtha's actions, Fine, so do I, but the issue is passe' (or at least certainly should be)-- Next you will be rehashing the Clinton/Lewinsksi affair------AGAIN.

disagreeing with Murthas actions is one thing, calling to account those that praise his actions is just as important wouldnt you say?

SR

 

[RetiredGySgt]

disagreeing with Murthas actions is one thing, calling to account those that praise his actions is just as important wouldnt you say?

SR

You are aware that Doniston is one of those people that likes to claim Bush was AWOL and that his daddy got him in the Guard. Both lies and both ancient history.

 

[CSM]

And you fall into the same catogory as others on this board who are constantly beating dead horses. You disagree with Murtha's actions, Fine, so do I, but the issue is passe' (or at least certainly should be)-- Next you will be rehashing the Clinton/Lewinsksi affair------AGAIN.

Horse crap and you know it.

Murtha is still in a position of power; he has said NOTHING regarding his actions even given the recent decision to drop the charges against the Marines so the issue is hardly "passe'". You may wish it were so.

Abuse of power is a dangerous thing in a democracy...something you libs are quick to point out when bashing the POTUS. I guess it's ok if the one doing the abuse is "one of yours". Then again, I expect nothing less from the Dems or libs.

 

[jasendorf]

Abuse of power is a dangerous thing in a democracy...something you libs are quick to point out when bashing the POTUS. I guess it's ok if the one doing the abuse is "one of yours".

For six years Republicans have taught us that it is OK to ignore abuses of power when the culprit is "one of yours." We're simply following your lead.

 

[SR_fullpolitics]

For six years Republicans have taught us that it is OK to ignore abuses of power when the culprit is "one of yours." We're simply following your lead.

I see. So youre excuse is that you know its not right but you still support it because some other men do it.

Is that right?


SR

 

[doniston]

You are aware that Doniston is one of those people that likes to claim Bush was AWOL and that his daddy got him in the Guard. Both lies and both ancient history.

YOU are the liar, I have never said either of those things.

 

[doniston]

Horse crap and you know it.

Murtha is still in a position of power; he has said NOTHING regarding his actions even given the recent decision to drop the charges against the Marines so the issue is hardly "passe'". You may wish it were so.

Abuse of power is a dangerous thing in a democracy...something you libs are quick to point out when bashing the POTUS. I guess it's ok if the one doing the abuse is "one of yours". Then again, I expect nothing less from the Dems or libs.

Because the charges have been (I beleive the proper term is that they have been) reduced doesn't mean it didn't happen. To me it is obvious that it did, and tho I personally would not call it murder. I definitely would describe it as a WAR CRIME Murtha was charging what he had been told by competent authority. but it is still a dead horse.

 

[maineman]

maineman,

Arent there other aspects of this entire episode that are wrong in your estimation?

perhaps, but nothing that I am going to lose to much sleep about

Do you believe that a sitting member of the US House of Representatives should be holding press conferences and blatantly lying about service members in order to advance a political agenda?

I don't think he blatantly lied about anything. I think he might have jumped to some unrealistic and overly pessimistic conclusions, but I don't think he LIED about any of it. You tend to overuse that word, by the way.

Do you believe that members of our Congress, should be telling lies, using their podium and mega phone through the press to slander US Marines in order to advance their political agenda?

asked and answered

Do you believe that Congressmen should convict and condemn service members DURING THE FIGHT of crimes in the court of public opinion, by simply making up lies in order to advance their political agenda?

asked and answered. how many different ways can you find to ask the same fucking question, by the way?

Dont you think that what Murtha did was entirely politically motivated, and that his actions and his intentions go far beyond the simple misuse of words maineman?

no. I think he talked to senior marine officials who gave him their assessment and he relayed it on. SHould he have held his tongue? Perhaps, in hindsight.

 

[maineman]

You are aware that Doniston is one of those people that likes to claim Bush was AWOL and that his daddy got him in the Guard. Both lies and both ancient history.

why was he never reprimanded for disobeying the direct order to report for his flight physical? Missing the flight physical caused him to lose his flight status and basically flushed the money we spent training him to fly jets down the shitter. Why does no one in Alabama ever remember him drilling there? Why are there no drill attendance records for him?

And please don't denigrate me for ASKING those questions...instead, why not try answering them?

 

[SR_fullpolitics]

perhaps, but nothing that I am going to lose to much sleep about

So you do see additional aspects other than the fact that he lied. None of us are going to lose any sleep over it either. This is not about losing sleep, and you know it.

I don't think he blatantly lied about anything. I think he might have jumped to some unrealistic and overly pessimistic conclusions, but I don't think he LIED about any of it. You tend to overuse that word, by the way.

I think he intentionally and knowingly said things that would benefit his political agenda FULLY knowing that they were not based in fact or in truth. If that isnt a blatant lie than im not sure what is.

asked and answered

Actually no. I didnt know if you partisan against the Marine Corps.

asked and answered. how many different ways can you find to ask the same fucking question, by the way?

Again, I wasnt sure if you had any indifference against convicting service members of murder in the court of public opinion if it were peace time. It would seem that while they are engaged in combat operations, having them look over their shoulder for liberal US Congressman might aggravate you a little more than if it were peace time, or i thought you may think it necessary to do such scumbag things WHILE they were fighting because it gets more coverage on the news.

no. I think he talked to senior marine officials who gave him their assessment and he relayed it on. SHould he have held his tongue? Perhaps, in hindsight.

So PERHAPS it would be wise for sitting US Congressman to NOT convict and condemn US Service members before the investigation is over? maybe even a trial? In your wisdom, that PERHAPS, might be the right way to go?

SR

 

[RetiredGySgt]

maineman,

Arent there other aspects of this entire episode that are wrong in your estimation?

perhaps, but nothing that I am going to lose to much sleep about

Do you believe that a sitting member of the US House of Representatives should be holding press conferences and blatantly lying about service members in order to advance a political agenda?

I don't think he blatantly lied about anything. I think he might have jumped to some unrealistic and overly pessimistic conclusions, but I don't think he LIED about any of it. You tend to overuse that word, by the way.

Do you believe that members of our Congress, should be telling lies, using their podium and mega phone through the press to slander US Marines in order to advance their political agenda?

asked and answered

Do you believe that Congressmen should convict and condemn service members DURING THE FIGHT of crimes in the court of public opinion, by simply making up lies in order to advance their political agenda?

asked and answered. how many different ways can you find to ask the same fucking question, by the way?

Dont you think that what Murtha did was entirely politically motivated, and that his actions and his intentions go far beyond the simple misuse of words maineman?

no. I think he talked to senior marine officials who gave him their assessment and he relayed it on. SHould he have held his tongue? Perhaps, in hindsight.

Wait a minute, Maineman aren't you the one that posted the definition of a lie when you were all on about how Bush lied to us? And claimed that saying something not true, no matter if you thought it true or not was a lie? Now your changing that because a Democrat did it?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

why was he never reprimanded for disobeying the direct order to report for his flight physical? Missing the flight physical caused him to lose his flight status and basically flushed the money we spent training him to fly jets down the shitter. Why does no one in Alabama ever remember him drilling there? Why are there no drill attendance records for him?

And please don't denigrate me for ASKING those questions...instead, why not try answering them?

I guess you missed the part about how one can NOT be ORDERED to take a flight physical. Flight status is voluntary, ALL they can do is provide you with an ORDER as to when you must take the physical if you CHOSE to remain on flight status.

You also must have missed the part where his jet was being phased out because it was so obsolete and he did not have enough time left to transition to another. Or that he requested and was granted a transfer to a non flight position in another State for personal reasons involving helping someone with a campaign. And I guess you missed the part where, while on flight status he flew MORE hours then required?

Further having BEEN in the National Guard all one need do when missing drills is make them up, which is what Bush did later. IT IS STANDARD POLICY, and has nothing to do with having your daddy make a call to anyone.

But do go on as if your points have any merit.

 

[maineman]

Wait a minute, Maineman aren't you the one that posted the definition of a lie when you were all on about how Bush lied to us? And claimed that saying something not true, no matter if you thought it true or not was a lie? Now your changing that because a Democrat did it?

I think you are mistaken. I think I said that saying something with the intention to deceive was a lie...as in "there is no doubt that Saddam has WMD's" That statement was made with the implication that there was absolute unanimity in the intelligence community about Saddam's WMD's, when, in fact, such was not the case - ergo - a statement made to intentionally deceive - ergo - a LIE. I have NEVER suggested that expressing an opinion which later proved to be inaccurate was itself a lie.

I would instead suggest that your "memory" is intentionally faulty because you have a hair across your ass about me and try to find little "gotcha" moments in my posts and it has been a while so you were getting desperate. try again.

 

[maineman]

I guess you missed the part about how one can NOT be ORDERED to take a flight physical. Flight status is voluntary, ALL they can do is provide you with an ORDER as to when you must take the physical if you CHOSE to remain on flight status.

You also must have missed the part where his jet was being phased out because it was so obsolete and he did not have enough time left to transition to another. Or that he requested and was granted a transfer to a non flight position in another State for personal reasons involving helping someone with a campaign. And I guess you missed the part where, while on flight status he flew MORE hours then required?

Further having BEEN in the National Guard all one need do when missing drills is make them up, which is what Bush did later. IT IS STANDARD POLICY, and has nothing to do with having your daddy make a call to anyone.

But do go on as if your points have any merit.

one cannot be ordered to take a flight physical? even back during the Vietnam war?

got a link for that?

flight status is voluntary?

so after a pilot goes through flight school, gets his wings, gets trained on an aircraft, gets orders to some squadron, he can just say, "gosh...thanks for all the training and stuff, but I think I'll just be goin' now"?? A pilot can snort a line of nose candy a mile long and then, on the day before the flight physical he was ordered to take, he can just say, "Nah...count me out...I really don't want to fly anymore"? Even during the Vietnam war?

got a link for THAT?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

one cannot be ordered to take a flight physical? even back during the Vietnam war?

got a link for that?

flight status is voluntary?

so after a pilot goes through flight school, gets his wings, gets trained on an aircraft, gets orders to some squadron, he can just say, "gosh...thanks for all the training and stuff, but I think I'll just be goin' now"?? A pilot can snort a line of nose candy a mile long and then, on the day before the flight physical he was ordered to take, he can just say, "Nah...count me out...I really don't want to fly anymore"? Even during the Vietnam war?

got a link for THAT?

So it is your position that if a pilot told his commanding Officer he no longer wanted to fly and was not going to take the flight physical that he could be forced to take it anyway?

Read National Guard policy on the issue, as well as any other service with flight status. A pilot can in fact take themself OFF flight status by request. What happens then is the Command makes a decision how to proceed on an individual basis for each occurance. In Bush's case his command allowed him to finish service and made NO official comments about his loss of flight status. Instead allowing him BY order to finish his obligation with desk duty and then authorizing him to leave service early. AND gave him an Honorable Discharge.

ALL of which was standard practice for ANYONE in the Air National Guard and during that time period the Air Force also.

read this.... and do not pretend because the site is a republican one it is no good.

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/guest/2004/jw_0920.shtml

BUSH EXCEEDS AIR NATIONAL GUARD ANNUAL SERVICE REQUIREMENTS (THREEFOLD FOR A SIX YEAR PERIOD)

Air National Guard Service Period
Minimum Annual Requirement
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush

May-68 to May-69
Minimum Annual Requirement - 50
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush - 253

May-69 to May-70
Minimum Annual Requirement - 50
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush - 340

May-70 to May-71
Minimum Annual Requirement - 50
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush - 137

May-71 to May-72
Minimum Annual Requirement - 50
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush -112

May-72 to May-73
Minimum Annual Requirement - 50
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush - 56

Jun -73 to Jul-73
Minimum Annual Requirement - 50
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush - 56

Ref:
http://www.hillnews.com/york/090904.aspx
Minimum Annual Requirement - 300
ANG Points Earned by Lt. Bush - 954

and

Now look at the Fraudulent Memo to File (below) produced by CBS.

As of 09/15/2004, CBS' 60 Minutes stands by its story that the memos were copies of original Air National Guard documents.

Observations regarding the 18 August 1973 memo:

Typewriters used by the Air National Guard in 1973 (at the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron) lacked the technology to produce the 18 August 1973 Memo for File -- to the specifications of today's Microsoft Word technology. The technology lacking was proportional typeface, superscript, curly apostrophes, Times New Roman font and vertical spacing.

Should you have doubts that the memo is a fraud (after viewing my re-type), then validate the memo yourself. Instructions: Take the 18 August 1973 memo that CBS says is a copy of the original document produced in 1973 and copy it into Microsoft Word. Then set your font to the default setting - "Times New Roman Font 9". Don't change anything from Microsoft Word default settings; i.e., the type size (font 9), tab stops, and margins. Now type the memo that CBS says Lt. Col Killian typed over 30 years ago. Walla, you get the 1973 message exactly. The spacing is the same, letters line up (look above and below each sentence) and line breaks are the same.

Since anyone can quickly ascertain that this document is fraudulent merely by going through the above exercise (you don't need a documents expert, handwriting expert or typewriting expert), then why weren't the DNC, Kerry's Campaign and CBS able to determine that these documents were fraudulent (using their experts)?

Other Points about the 18 August 2004 Memo for File:

Filing a memo with "SUBJECT: CYA" is unlikely; files are subject to inspection.

During the years Lt. Bush was in the Air National Guard (ANG) the abbreviation for an Officer's Efficiency Report would be O.E.R. not OETR.

Col. Staudt retired from the Air National Guard on 1 March 1972 almost 1½ years before the date of the fraudulently constructed memo of 18 August 1973.

Staudt would not be in a position to exert pressure on Hodges or Killian (to sugar coat Lt. Bush's O.E.R.) because he was not in the command line of either; he was retired.

Lt. Bush would not be getting an O.E.R. from Lt. Col Killian because he wasn't under Lt. Col Killian's observation for the number of days required to rate him. Also, Lt. Bush was leaving the Air National Guard and such a report would be of no advantage to the Guard and no advantage to Lt. Bush for career advancement in the Guard. The import of an O.E.R. (being rendered on Lt. Bush) would be minimal since he was on his way to Harvard Business School and leaving the military.

I can easily quote more specific things from this Officer on Bush, specifics about service and practices of the Air National Guard at the time. Further having BEEN in the Guard I know first hand how things work. Nothing Bush did was out of the ordinary. In fact his status as a "well respected officer" by his commander as evidenced by his fitness reports would enhance the position that he would be granted early release and would explain why he was allowed to transfer to another State.

 

[maineman]

So it is your position that if a pilot told his commanding Officer he no longer wanted to fly and was not going to take the flight physical that he could be forced to take it anyway?

It is my position that it was sleazy of George Bush to slide into the national guard while his less affluent peers were being sent off to Nam... allow the military to train him to fly... and then not complete his commitment.... and then, years later, let his unsavory cohorts denigrate the service of a man who did two tours in the war zone and was highly decorated for that service.

And your cute little Bush love poem commentary by the air force colonel in the republican propaganda website failed to point out that Bush, after basic flight training, got to chose his aircraft... and the F-102 that he chose had ALREADY been earmarked for removal from overseas service and he, therefore, KNEW that he would be able to avoid Vietnam by chosing that aircraft... and then, he STILL felt no compunction to stay and finish his tour - all the while, his peers were dying inthe jungle.

In Bush's case his command allowed him to finish service and made NO official comments about his loss of flight status. Instead allowing him BY order to finish his obligation with desk duty and then authorizing him to leave service early. AND gave him an Honorable Discharge.

ALL of which was standard practice for ANYONE in the Air National Guard and during that time period the Air Force also.

I do not believe that it was standard practice for ANY branch of the military to not give a shit about pilots who cavalierly refused to take their flight physicals and instead to reward them for such disobedience by giving them early outs. I believe that Dubya had a little help in that regard, just like he had a little help jumping over hundreds of more qualified appicants to get into the TANG in the first place. And some of us veterans look askance at such behavior (that would be ME)... while others chose to deify him and excuse and minimize any failings in his past simply because of his party....(that would be YOU - and you have the gall to call ME a partisan hack!)

 

[maineman]

didja miss this one?

I think you are mistaken. I think I said that saying something with the intention to deceive was a lie...as in "there is no doubt that Saddam has WMD's" That statement was made with the implication that there was absolute unanimity in the intelligence community about Saddam's WMD's, when, in fact, such was not the case - ergo - a statement made to intentionally deceive - ergo - a LIE. I have NEVER suggested that expressing an opinion which later proved to be inaccurate was itself a lie.

I would instead suggest that your "memory" is intentionally faulty because you have a hair across your ass about me and try to find little "gotcha" moments in my posts and it has been a while so you were getting desperate. try again.