Where Do You Stop With Torture?

[rayboyusmc]

If this is what Bush/Cheney our moral guides brought US to, do you still defend torture?

The Torture of Children under George W. Bush
Posted on January 25th, 2009
by psburton in Op-ed
Read 2,266 times.

As we begin to debate the possibility, a department of justice criminal investigation may be warranted in respect to the conduct and actions of George W. Bush and senior members of his administration. To my thinking the abuse, torture and killing of children seem to stand out as the most morally repugnant allegations, and as fate would have it, they seem be the charges for which we have the best evidence to indict and obtain conviction.

http://www.bloggernews.net/119512

 

[Sinatra]

Reading your posts is torture...

 

[rayboyusmc]

» The Torture of Children under George W. Bush - Blogger News Network

Reading your inane reply is more moral vomit from the right.


All laws are subject to your interpretation.

I guess it's okay if someone captures you and your kids and tortures them to get information they want?

 

[manu1959]

yep....it all started under bush..........

Torture, rendition, and other abuses against captives in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere: Extraordinary Rendition

 

[Newby]

When I hear the 'safe' word??

 

[rayboyusmc]

Yes, making torture a way of life started under him,

At the end of this debate, and has been pointed out by others, this really isn't about our enemies and their values, it's about us and our values. Republicans like to talk about our American history of courageous revolutionary patriots, and frontiers men and women, and about our national traditions and heritage. What Republicans want to ignore is that such brave people didn't take the safe route. They risked greatly to found and build the kind of nation they wanted to live in. Patrick Henry didn't say; give me liberty, but only if I don't have to risk death. What would those founding Americans think of today's cowardly Republicans? Probably the same as they thought about them back then, as the conservatives of their day were arguing that we should remain an English colony, and that was mostly because they were making good money off the Crown. It seems some things never change

TPM

 

[manu1959]

Yes, making torture a way of life started under him,

At the end of this debate, and has been pointed out by others, this really isn't about our enemies and their values, it's about us and our values. Republicans like to talk about our American history of courageous revolutionary patriots, and frontiers men and women, and about our national traditions and heritage. What Republicans want to ignore is that such brave people didn't take the safe route. They risked greatly to found and build the kind of nation they wanted to live in. Patrick Henry didn't say; give me liberty, but only if I don't have to risk death. What would those founding Americans think of today's cowardly Republicans? Probably the same as they thought about them back then, as the conservatives of their day were arguing that we should remain an English colony, and that was mostly because they were making good money off the Crown. It seems some things never change

TPM

hardly.....torture has existed by proxy for decades....bush mistake is he had it done by americans and gitmo....he should have had it outsourced like clinton and everyone before him did....

 

[rayboyusmc]

Bullshit, Why is Cheney now trying to cover his ass like he is on all the interviews.

They went farther than we have ever gone before. But then they did say the Geneva convention was quaint.

The right will live with this for a long time even as they try and deny it.

And you didn't answer if it okay to torture a child to get the parent to talk.


Just wondering how far some will go to relieve their cognitive dissonance.

 

[Pyrite]

Most Americans have yet to see the “special” videos form Abu Ghraib, the ones that show American guards and a girl of 12 or 13 screaming in vain for her brother held in another cell to help her while she is stripped naked and beaten.
The Iraqi journalist Suhaib Badr-Addin al reports he witnessed a very ill 15-year-old forced to run up and down the slabs at Abu Ghraib with two heavy cans of water, beaten whenever he stopped. Stripped naked and doused with cold water when he collapsed.

And then we have the case of General Hamid Zabar another recipient of vice president Cheney’s want to encourage cooperation and confession through the implementation of “enhanced interrogations” They decided the most effective technique was to order the arrest of his 16-year-old son, Soldiers were dispatched to find the boy, he was stripped naked, and after drenching him with mud and water, drove him around in the open back of a truck in the cold of the January night. Then they brought him naked and on the verge of death to his father to encourage cooperation and confession.

If any of this is true, then the entire bush administration, everyone that even knew this was happening, deserves to go to jail in public disgrace for the rest of their lives. This is sickening, disgusting, repulsive.

Anyone who defends these actions should feel ashamed of themselves.

 

[RodISHI]

Since when did the CIA have to open it's books for review? Who started this?

Torture was around long before Cheney or Bush. Facts are more like it was not opened to public scrutiny. That does not mean it meets approval with the public it means it was not previously open for discussion.

As the DEMS say, "MOVE ON". We have a lot more important issues to deal with than what is already in the past.

For future reference, "No torture" means "no torture". From what I am reading it is okay to kill the enemy but you cannot use "enhanced" means to get info from them. Nor may you keep them locked up to keep them from trying to kill your people.

 

[Pyrite]

Since when did the CIA have to open it's books for review? Who started this?

Torture was around long before Cheney or Bush. Facts are more like it was not opened to public scrutiny. That does not mean it meets approval with the public it means it was not previously open for discussion.

As the DEMS say, "MOVE ON". We have a lot more important issues to deal with than what is already in the past.

I suppose we can apply this to all crimes. You murdered someone? well, I suppose we should just move on.

For future reference, "No torture" means "no torture". From what I am reading it is okay to kill the enemy but you cannot use "enhanced" means to get info from them.

That would be correct.

Nor may you keep them locked up to keep them from trying to kill your people.

No one is saying that you can't hold people so shut the fuck up.

 

[RodISHI]

Putz off. The deal is these terrorist called for war. They got it. Obama was in a position to do just as much back then about how these prisons with terrorist operatives in them were run. In fact it was both DEMS and REPS who put the hammer down and continued the roll. Like it or not it happened. Terrorist are not citizens of the United States of America. They do not recieve the benefits of being a terrorist as non-citizens. It is really that simple.

WAR ZONES with terrorist are not crimes zones the same as soveriegn zones already owned by the US. Terrorist are not even representing a country. Therefore they were and are fair game when they attack this country. They put themselves into that position. It was not Cheney or Bush or anyone in the congress that put them into that position. REPEAT, THEY DID THAT TO THEMSELVES! In your own words back to you, "STFU".

 

[rayboyusmc]

So we can torture their kids just like Jack would on 24.

I think too many on the right don't realize that this is only a show.

Torture was never openly advocated like Bush and Cheney did. They made it a policy of the governmnet. They were so scared shitless when the got blown away on 9-11 through their own incompetence, they decided to throw out every value we had to make themselves look good. Two fucking morons and traitors.

There will be trials. More and more of their crimes against humanity and our own moral values continue to leak out with the sewage.

 

[Sinatra]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

 

[Luissa]

I have no idea how I feel about torture. We have all these regulations we most follow while the other guy has none, they are fighting a different style of war and when we have to play by the rules it doesn't always turn out well for us. If one of our guys ends up in their prison they torture them but our we suppose to be better and not do the same?
And like someone else said this did not start with Bush/Cheney.

 

[RodISHI]

I would not advocate torture period. As far as trials go? I doubt it. Incompetence was there before Bush and Cheney got there. Fact is we should be holding the countries where these terrorist breed more accountable for the action of their citizens. I doubt that will work though as we do not hold the people accountable in our own country for all of the crimes they commit. The current banking crisis is testament to that.

If in fact teenagers were abused congress should be addressing the situation by secret grand jury. Not in the public on the Internet or the public rumor polls. We are still at the moment a soveriegn nation. Personally I would like to keep it that away. I could care less what the majority of posters post on some Internet BS lines. I say that knowing the spam that goes out to attempt to influence the minds of the masses out in cyberland. It is also for that exact and same reason I believe to much mis-information is spread around. The illusions of safety when in fact there is none when our top agencies movements are not kept confidential by our leaders.

 

[WillowTree]

If this is what Bush/Cheney our moral guides brought US to, do you still defend torture?

The Torture of Children under George W. Bush
Posted on January 25th, 2009
by psburton in Op-ed
Read 2,266 times.

As we begin to debate the possibility, a department of justice criminal investigation may be warranted in respect to the conduct and actions of George W. Bush and senior members of his administration. To my thinking the abuse, torture and killing of children seem to stand out as the most morally repugnant allegations, and as fate would have it, they seem be the charges for which we have the best evidence to indict and obtain conviction.

A topic more or less ignored by the main stream media during the course of the war on terror, Few Americans are even aware President Bush authorized rendition and detentions of children as enemy combatants. We even have documented incidents when they were simply young family members of high profile terror suspects and the want was to use the children as leverage to obtain cooperation, information and confessions.
The mind bending numbers were supplied by the Bush administration itself to the United Nations in 2008 to counter claims of even higher estimates, Some NGO’s and human rights groups were saying the United States was responsible for the detention and disappearance of ten thousand children in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The folks at the white house assured the United Nations the figure was more in the 2,500 range and it could account for most of them, paper work gets lost sometimes I guess, but they were sticking by the twenty five hundred figure come hell or high water.

In an episode right out of the popular but fictional series 24, Jack Bauer snatches a couple kids to obtain information from a terrorist, George Bush wasn’t pretending, he really did order his people to encourage Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s cooperation and confession by “detaining and interrogating” the terrorists two children ages 7 and 9, of course, George Bush still insists the lawyers at Justice told him everything he did was legal and no one was ever tortured on his watch. I speculate even Americans who are comfortable with the torture of suspected terrorists to gain information do not support the use of it on children.
In Afghanistan alone 800 boys, between the ages of 10 and 15 felt to differing degree the embrace of vice president Cheney’s enhanced interrogation policy. Reliable reports tell us 64 children were sent to Guantánamo bay, some may still be there, of course after six or seven years they are not children anymore are they.
We can all agree Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a terrorist, but how George Bush and Dick Cheney ever arrived at a reality that made them think they could possibly convince a jury of their peers, they were justified in the abuse of the man’s children is something I lack the intellect to wrap my mind around.

I thought we were supposed to provide links.. and only post a paragraph or so followed by a link.. isn't that called "the fair use policy"????

 

[Sinatra]

So we can torture their kids just like Jack would on 24.

I think too many on the right don't realize that this is only a show.

Torture was never openly advocated like Bush and Cheney did. They made it a policy of the governmnet. They were so scared shitless when the got blown away on 9-11 through their own incompetence, they decided to throw out every value we had to make themselves look good. Two fucking morons and traitors.

There will be trials. More and more of their crimes against humanity and our own moral values continue to leak out with the sewage.

Jack is dreamy...

 

[Article 15]

If this is what Bush/Cheney our moral guides brought US to, do you still defend torture?

The Torture of Children under George W. Bush
Posted on January 25th, 2009
by psburton in Op-ed
Read 2,266 times.

As we begin to debate the possibility, a department of justice criminal investigation may be warranted in respect to the conduct and actions of George W. Bush and senior members of his administration. To my thinking the abuse, torture and killing of children seem to stand out as the most morally repugnant allegations, and as fate would have it, they seem be the charges for which we have the best evidence to indict and obtain conviction.

A topic more or less ignored by the main stream media during the course of the war on terror, Few Americans are even aware President Bush authorized rendition and detentions of children as enemy combatants. We even have documented incidents when they were simply young family members of high profile terror suspects and the want was to use the children as leverage to obtain cooperation, information and confessions.
The mind bending numbers were supplied by the Bush administration itself to the United Nations in 2008 to counter claims of even higher estimates, Some NGO’s and human rights groups were saying the United States was responsible for the detention and disappearance of ten thousand children in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The folks at the white house assured the United Nations the figure was more in the 2,500 range and it could account for most of them, paper work gets lost sometimes I guess, but they were sticking by the twenty five hundred figure come hell or high water.

In an episode right out of the popular but fictional series 24, Jack Bauer snatches a couple kids to obtain information from a terrorist, George Bush wasn’t pretending, he really did order his people to encourage Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s cooperation and confession by “detaining and interrogating” the terrorists two children ages 7 and 9, of course, George Bush still insists the lawyers at Justice told him everything he did was legal and no one was ever tortured on his watch. I speculate even Americans who are comfortable with the torture of suspected terrorists to gain information do not support the use of it on children.
In Afghanistan alone 800 boys, between the ages of 10 and 15 felt to differing degree the embrace of vice president Cheney’s enhanced interrogation policy. Reliable reports tell us 64 children were sent to Guantánamo bay, some may still be there, of course after six or seven years they are not children anymore are they.
We can all agree Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a terrorist, but how George Bush and Dick Cheney ever arrived at a reality that made them think they could possibly convince a jury of their peers, they were justified in the abuse of the man’s children is something I lack the intellect to wrap my mind around.

I thought we were supposed to provide links.. and only post a paragraph or so followed by a link.. isn't that called "the fair use policy"????

Check post #3, Willow

 

[WillowTree]

If this is what Bush/Cheney our moral guides brought US to, do you still defend torture?

I thought we were supposed to provide links.. and only post a paragraph or so followed by a link.. isn't that called "the fair use policy"????

Check post #3, Willow

Thank You,, I found it. I wish these bloggers would provide links to the documents they refer to.. If they have access then why can't they share them?