When does life begin?

[xsited1]

If you're a Republican, it begins at conception. If you're a Democrat, it begins when the baby is born, unless it was a failed abortion attempt in which case it's okay to kill the 'fetus'.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Okay Cali, lemmie ask ya a question.....

Since you believe in the egg being a human, and you believe in a sperm being a human, and since it's illegal to kill humans, does this mean that dudes who beat off should be sent to prison for mass murder?

Nope dillo, not thumping, but I do feel that there are quite a few answers that puzzle us that can be found there.

 

[PeterS]

Ever read or studied any of it PeterS? If not, STFU and go in the corner, because you've obviously got a closed mind as reflected in this post.

Any belief in the supernatural is irrational. I do not need to study it to know that it lacks rational proof and the fact that it lacks rational proof means one cannot know truth. If I am being open minded how on earth can I embrace truth when it is devoid of all rational proof? I can only embrace your view if I close my mind and there is nothing in your torah that I find worth that high a price.

 

[sealybobo]

I would like everyone's opinion on when they think a human life begins and why they hold that position.

Thank you all.

When does your birth certificate say you were born? Then.

Until we start caring about the born, screw worrying about this. People are starving all over the world. Where is the conversation about that? Do you care because those lives are sufering. Was iraq really worth a million lives? Some estimate the numbers could be that high.

If you value life, you wouldn't be focused on the unborn. You'd worry about human suffering.

And doesn't god give us free will? You can choose to be moral or you can choose not to believe.

Just like you don't worry about what they do in china or mexico or canada, don't worry about me and my body. You can voice your opinion but ultimately its my choice.

 

[elvis]

If you're a Republican, it begins at conception. If you're a Democrat, it begins when the baby is born, unless it was a failed abortion attempt in which case it's okay to kill the 'fetus'.

I wonder Obama supporters believe the last part, or if they just make excuses for him because he is so inspirational and gives great speeches.

Hmmm

Germans were moved by speeches too.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Any belief in the supernatural is irrational. I do not need to study it to know that it lacks rational proof and the fact that it lacks rational proof means to know truth. If I am being open minded how on earth can I embrace truth when it is devoid of all rational proof. I can only embrace your view if I close my mind and there is nothing in your torah that I find worth that high a price.

"There is a principle which can never fail to hold a man in everlasting ignorance, and that principle is contempt prior to investigation".

So, I suppose that you're an atheist? Remember dude.....they told a couple of bike mechanics named Wright that they would never fly either, because it went against rational thought.

 

[PeterS]

No, if a human egg is fertilized by more than one sperm, as happens infrequently, it will develop very weirdly for a while, then abort.

Is it alive? Is it human? Is it a person?

Or...did god abort it and therefore guilty of murder!

 

[elvis]

When does your birth certificate say you were born? Then.

Until we start caring about the born, screw worrying about this. People are starving all over the world. Where is the conversation about that? Do you care because those lives are sufering. Was iraq really worth a million lives? Some estimate the numbers could be that high.

If you value life, you wouldn't be focused on the unborn. You'd worry about human suffering.

And doesn't god give us free will? You can choose to be moral or you can choose not to believe.

Just like you don't worry about what they do in china or mexico or canada, don't worry about me and my body. You can voice your opinion but ultimately its my choice.

How do you know I don't care about what happens in China, Mexico, or Canada? Because I ask a question about when life begins? Using your line of reasoning, if you have ever cared about anything, besides human life, and focused on it for more than 15 minutes, you would not value human life.

 

[Caligirl]

Okay Cali, lemmie ask ya a question.....

Since you believe in the egg being a human, and you believe in a sperm being a human, and since it's illegal to kill humans, does this mean that dudes who beat off should be sent to prison for mass murder?

I haven't heard that spin before but me likey.

Maybe that's why the priests said masturbation was a sin eh?

More seriously, I joke about it to make the point that it is a matter of faith, and a personal matter, and there are probably many ways to look at it. I don't think we can possibly know 'the answer.' I was raised taught that birth control is wrong. That's not taught very often anymore but that was what I was raised with. Should I try to legislate that position?

There are a lot of belief systems out there and I will never try to legislate *your* morality and ethics.

Consider an atheist and an evangelical. They both have an abortion. God loves them both the same. The evangelical had the abortion believing it was a bad bad sin, the atheist had the abortion without even believing in God's existence. How would God judge these two situations? ("forgive them they know not what they do" and all that.)

It's got to be left to the individual. You say forty days others say conception others say viability etc etc.

If I really had to draw a line in the sand it would be biologically based: Abortion is unethical once the fetus feels pain which cannot happen before a nervous system develops. So, abortion prior to nervous system development would be relatively OK as far as the fetus is concerned but after not at all.

But I only say that to make the point that everyone is going to think about it differently, and as I have said many times before I would never have an abortion even if I were raped or if the baby was sick, but by the same token I would never legislate that others can't make their own minds about it.

 

[PeterS]

"There is a principle which can never fail to hold a man in everlasting ignorance, and that principle is contempt prior to investigation".

So, I suppose that you're an atheist? Remember dude.....they told a couple of bike mechanics named Wright that they would never fly either, because it went against rational thought.

An atheist does not believe in god. How can I believe or not believe in that with I cannot prove exists? And Man delivers the irrational into the rational all the time--it's called science. If you have a proof for god based on scientific method then fine but you cannot use the torah because it is based on myth and a belief in the supernatural. What else you got. I'm all ears...

 

[dilloduck]

An atheist does not believe in god. How can I believe or not believe in that with I cannot prove exists? And Man delivers the irrational into the rational all the time--it's called science. If you have a proof for god based on scientific method then fine but you cannot use the torah because it is based on myth and a belief in the supernatural. What else you got. I'm all ears...

Has science ever proved something that wasn't already the truth ?

 

[PeterS]

Has science ever proved something that wasn't already the truth ?

Nope. Your point?

 

[sealybobo]

How do you know I don't care about what happens in China, Mexico, or Canada? Because I ask a question about when life begins? Using your line of reasoning, if you have ever cared about anything, besides human life, and focused on it for more than 15 minutes, you would not value human life.

Did you ever post anything about starving kids in africa? My point is that this is a political wedge issue that should not be discussed. just like your religion is personal and sacred to you, so is having an abortion.

fact is, many anti abortion people have actually had abortions themselves and the guilt is eating them up. Look at born agains. Most of them were really bad before they found god. So they go around assuming everyone else is as fucked up as they were before they found god. and their religion tells them that us non born again christians all have it wrong.

Well I feel they have it all wrong. God doesn't care as much about abortion as he does racism or not dealing with poverty or global warming or war. Those are the things you should be focused on And if your daughter gets knocked up, you can be pro life. If you won't give poor women welfare so they can raise those kids right, then your first priority should be eliminating poverty, not banning abortions. Its a necessary evil.

 

[dilloduck]

Nope. Your point?

that's it. Prior to being pronounced true by scientific method it was also true.
That and the fact that science is constantly having to say " ooops--we thought that it was true but guess what? It ain't "

 

[elvis]

Did you ever post anything about starving kids in africa? My point is that this is a political wedge issue that should not be discussed. just like your religion is personal and sacred to you, so is having an abortion.

fact is, many anti abortion people have actually had abortions themselves and the guilt is eating them up. Look at born agains. Most of them were really bad before they found god. So they go around assuming everyone else is as fucked up as they were before they found god. and their religion tells them that us non born again christians all have it wrong.

Well I feel they have it all wrong. God doesn't care as much about abortion as he does racism or not dealing with poverty or global warming or war. Those are the things you should be focused on And if your daughter gets knocked up, you can be pro life. If you won't give poor women welfare so they can raise those kids right, then your first priority should be eliminating poverty, not banning abortions. Its a necessary evil.

The people on this board will decide what should be discussed. Global warming is a political wedge. Racism is a political wedge. And yet, you want those things discussed. This discussion will continue whether you like it or not.

 

[elvis]

that's it. Prior to being pronounced true by scientific method it was also true.
That and the fact that science is constantly having to say " ooops--we thought that it was true but guess what? It ain't "

It was "true" until 1492 that the world was flat.

 

[PeterS]

that's it. Prior to being pronounced true by scientific method it was also true.That and the fact that science is constantly having to say " ooops--we thought that it was true but guess what? It ain't "

So? I don't get your point. If I glued feathers to my arms and flapped like a bird would I have just proved Mans ability to fly just as the Wrights did? After all flight is a absolute Truth correct? Both the irrational and rational can be true but it is only when we delve into the rational that Man can prove truth.

 

[dilloduck]

So? I don't get your point. If I glued feathers to my arms and flapped like a bird would I have just proved Mans ability to fly just as the Wrights did? After all flight is a absolute Truth correct? Both the irrational and rational can be true but it is only when we delve into the rational that Man can prove truth.

It's ok--A lot of people don't. Just because science has yet to prove the "irrational" to be rational, doesn't mean it isn't.
(in spite of what science would like you to think)

 

[elvis]

Belief in God takes faith. One has to trust what he can't see.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I haven't heard that spin before but me likey.

Maybe that's why the priests said masturbation was a sin eh?

If I really had to draw a line in the sand it would be biologically based: Abortion is unethical once the fetus feels pain which cannot happen before a nervous system develops. So, abortion prior to nervous system development would be relatively OK as far as the fetus is concerned but after not at all.

Masturbation is a sin? Well, there's a book in India called the Kama Sutra, which details just about every way to have sex that is humanly possible with another person(s). Now, things that God doesn't want around, generally fade away within a couple of centuries, or it is met with some really ugly consequences. However, the Kama Sutra is STILL around, and just as popular as ever.

Interesting thing about the Jewish faith by the way, speaking of pain. Did you know that they believe that we actually have 2 souls in us? One is the yetzer harrah (animal nature), and the other is the yetzer hartov (God nature). Interestingly enough, the animal nature is borne in the blood, and the God nature is borne in the nervous system. The animal nature (blood) is our "physical" self, and our nervous system (which runs on electricity) is our God nature. Maybe the reason that the Hebrews came up with the 40 day mark is because that may be how long it takes the body to form a nervous system, which incidentally, is the vessel for the soul. So, if your line in the sand is at the point where it can feel pain, I'm with ya, because I see it as 40 days, but they're still the same thing.