When Deliberations Become Dithering

[potter 58]

ah BS Charles, please explain Tora Bora, you know where the CIA pleaded for American troops to do the assault but nah, Jr went the cheap route and hired the locals who were known to be bought off by the highest bidder which in this case appears to be OSAMA

 

[Ringel05]

Oh come on Si for 8 freaken years of Bush all we heard if Clinton had only done this or that, sorry what goes round comes around , deal with it

And when Clinton was in office all we heard was how bad Reagan an Daddy Bush were.
Deal with it.

 

[Ringel05]

It's funny, I find myself again defending Obama on specific issues. There a multi-layered reasons for what is going on here. First off while Karzid is the so called president of Afghanistan he is in truth only the mayor of Kabul, where all of his power base is. Karzid wants the US to eliminate the Taliban (and all other opposition) for him because he doesn't have the backing for him to accomplish this on his own. We don't necessarily want to do this.
The second and probably most important reason for the delay is Obama is trying to get the coalition partners to anti up more troops and support, relieving the need for the US to extend more troops, support and money.
There are other issues at play but are relativity compared to the two listed above.

 

[potter 58]

Oh Ringel you are going to catch hell for that one, we all know Obama is trying to tear down this country as fast as possible , just read the wingnut posts on this board

 

[California Girl]

It's funny, I find myself again defending Obama on specific issues. There a multi-layered reasons for what is going on here. First off while Karzid is the so called president of Afghanistan he is in truth only the mayor of Kabul, where all of his power base is. Karzid wants the US to eliminate the Taliban (and all other opposition) for him because he doesn't have the backing for him to accomplish this on his own. We don't necessarily want to do this.
The second and probably most important reason for the delay is Obama is trying to get the coalition partners to anti up more troops and support, relieving the need for the US to extend more troops, support and money.
There are other issues at play but are relativity compared to the two listed above.

Perhaps our POTUS should be a fucking leader and then our coalition partners might feel inclined to follow.

 

[potter 58]

and what coalition would that be Cali, Bush's so called coalition of the bribed?

 

[Ringel05]

It's funny, I find myself again defending Obama on specific issues. There a multi-layered reasons for what is going on here. First off while Karzid is the so called president of Afghanistan he is in truth only the mayor of Kabul, where all of his power base is. Karzid wants the US to eliminate the Taliban (and all other opposition) for him because he doesn't have the backing for him to accomplish this on his own. We don't necessarily want to do this.
The second and probably most important reason for the delay is Obama is trying to get the coalition partners to anti up more troops and support, relieving the need for the US to extend more troops, support and money.
There are other issues at play but are relativity compared to the two listed above.

Perhaps our POTUS should be a fucking leader and then our coalition partners might feel inclined to follow.

I explained what he was doing and why he was doing it. However when he already stated we weren't there to win, it's my humble but accurate opinion, he shot himself in the foot. I don't see the partners stepping up to the plate on this one.
one other issue that I forgot to mention, quite possibly the most important are the Afghans themselves. It's an extremely tribal, illiterate region and getting the Afghans to step up and do for themselves is the biggest pipe dream of all. For an example, I can't remember the name of the book off hand, A Soviet surgeon who was in Afghanistan off and on during the Soviet occupation trained Afghans for 10 years in combat surgery. During the Soviet draw down, prior to leaving he observed them in action. They would simply sew the exterior wound up, no more, no less, he was obviously horrified and speechless.
Another issue is Afghan families will send one brother to fight in the Army and another to fight in the Taliban. Essentially the won't fight one another but are more than willing to pass information back and forth.

 

[Charles Stucker]

ah BS Charles, please explain Tora Bora, you know where the CIA pleaded for American troops to do the assault but nah, Jr went the cheap route and hired the locals who were known to be bought off by the highest bidder which in this case appears to be OSAMA

First, Herr Plodder, Gary Bernsten is the sort of guy to cover his posterior. Whether he actually asked for "US troops" or not is a question which can only be answered by documents that are currently classified. Second, the intel putting Bin Laden at Tora Bora was not absolute - perhaps he was never there. Third, the call was made by the local CENTCOM, so Bush may not have had as much "say" in the troops used as you suppose. And Finally - Tora Bora was doing something - it was an offensive to drive the remaining resistance out of those caves.

Obama is doing Nothing, zilch, zip, nada. That is why he is dithering.
Bush made mistakes, but he was blindsided by a problem which Clinton allowed to occur and which Clinton probably helped hide from him. Obama knew the US was in Afghanistan before he announced his intention to run for office and from all accounts Bush gave Obama all the transitional assistance that Clinton failed to give him (Bush).
Any way you slice it, Obama is coming off as an indecisive loser.

 

[JW Frogen]

One of the great ironies of politics is that rhetoric often masks reality and perception is often inverse to reality.

Bush spoke in blunt terms.

Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq first due to real or perceived strategic threat but then used the follow up policy in a radical change of US position to support democracy in both countries. This democracy advocacy has come at great cost, risk, even cost to the military objectives. It placed idealism over short term strategic interest.

Yet the perception is Bush was pursuing narrow, nationalistic objectives.

Obama speaks in lofty, if vague rhetoric about hope and change, yet in Iraq he would have abandoned the infant democracy to civil war and Al Qaeda in 2007 for domestic political advantage and now in Afghanistan is considering abandoning nation building and democracy to concentrate on attacking only Al Qaeda.

Obama’s thinking on both countries is old school, realist, Bush’s was Wilsonian idealistic, yet much of the press and public perception has it the other way around.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Oh come on Si for 8 freaken years of Bush all we heard if Clinton had only done this or that, sorry what goes round comes around , deal with it

All I remember hearing about Clinton after Bush was in there is thank God Billy Boy is gone.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Bush dithered. He did not put enough troops into Iraq to do what he was trying to do.
Of course when you expect to be greeted as saviours with open arms and those open arms turn out to be AK47's....

Boooooooosh makes it all OK, then. It's amazing how Obama is so dependent on GWB for justification of what BHO does and doesn't do. One would think the liberals would hate that fact.

I was just responding to the statement that Bush did not dither.

I wanted all troops out of Iraq long ago. I was against the invasion before it happened.

Afganistan should have been large fast and no more than 6 month in duration.

I believe that Bush truly thought he had enough troops in Afghanistan to do the job. We know with hindsight he was wrong.

His biggest mistake in Iraq was Rumsfeld.

 

[Xenophon]

He should just end teh war and be done with it.

 

[Annie]

Boooooooosh makes it all OK, then. It's amazing how Obama is so dependent on GWB for justification of what BHO does and doesn't do. One would think the liberals would hate that fact.

I was just responding to the statement that Bush did not dither.

I wanted all troops out of Iraq long ago. I was against the invasion before it happened.

Afganistan should have been large fast and no more than 6 month in duration.

I believe that Bush truly thought he had enough troops in Afghanistan to do the job. We know with hindsight he was wrong.

His biggest mistake in Iraq was Rumsfeld.

Though it seemed right at the time, I agree.