"When Bad Things Happen..."

[Meriweather]

An impressive sermon but it doesn’t explain the existence of evil or the supposed origins of Satan. In fact so impressive a sermon I find it very difficult to identify the deity you describe with the God portrayed by centuries of Christian theology. It also goes nowhere near the nature of the Crucifixion and how any deity, less than omnipotent or not, could engineer such an event. Mysterious ways? Very mysterious.

1. Not intended as a homily but a sharing of personal experiences.
2. Satan is said to have been one of the most powerful angels who chose ruling over serving.
3. My study of centuries of Catholic and Jewish theology (plus personal experience) show that this is exactly how God is portrayed. Twenty-first century man with the help of modern English and their own "personal" interpretations of post Protestant Reformations are possibly the foundation of your brand of Christianity.
4. Since you are of the mind that the Crucifixion was "engineered" I doubt you know anything but the Protestant Reformation view of the Crucifixion

My reaction to assertions such as "Suffering, while keeping faith in God's love, builds strength in body, mind, and soul, and also builds a stronger faith/knowledge of God's love “ is no less than one of repulsion. This glib and contradictory sophistry, so often dished up by Christians, strikes me as bordering on the obscene.

As I pointed out above, it is not glib, it is not sophistry--but hard learned (even hard fought) lessons of life. It is certainly not contradictory. You have an extremely odd view of "obscene" if anyone who does not fall in line with your views, but lives their own experiences and presents their own findings is seen as "obscene."

 

[Karl Rand]

[QUOTE="C_Clayton_Jones, post: 21443447, member: 29614”]

Needless to say, no such paradigm exists, given the fact that belief systems, religion, and ‘god’ are all creations of man – imbued with man’s faults, fears, and failings, devoid of fact and truth.

Indeed, when liberated from the tyranny of religious doctrine and dogma, those free from religion are capable of accepting and making peace with ‘when bad things happen,’ unlike theists who continue to struggle to reconcile the harsh realities of life with the mythology of their errant beliefs.[/QUOTE]
If you’re talking about the claims made for ‘an all loving God’, yes, On a secular level though we all need to keep in mind never to underestimate the random cruelty of the Universe. However, let’s not get into a lengthy discussion about randomness actually existing or not.

 

[Karl Rand]

An impressive sermon but it doesn’t explain the existence of evil or the supposed origins of Satan. In fact so impressive a sermon I find it very difficult to identify the deity you describe with the God portrayed by centuries of Christian theology. It also goes nowhere near the nature of the Crucifixion and how any deity, less than omnipotent or not, could engineer such an event. Mysterious ways? Very mysterious.

1. Not intended as a homily but a sharing of personal experiences.
2. Satan is said to have been one of the most powerful angels who chose ruling over serving.
3. My study of centuries of Catholic and Jewish theology (plus personal experience) show that this is exactly how God is portrayed. Twenty-first century man with the help of modern English and their own "personal" interpretations of post Protestant Reformations are possibly the foundation of your brand of Christianity.
4. Since you are of the mind that the Crucifixion was "engineered" I doubt you know anything but the Protestant Reformation view of the Crucifixion

My reaction to assertions such as "Suffering, while keeping faith in God's love, builds strength in body, mind, and soul, and also builds a stronger faith/knowledge of God's love “ is no less than one of repulsion. This glib and contradictory sophistry, so often dished up by Christians, strikes me as bordering on the obscene.

As I pointed out above, it is not glib, it is not sophistry--but hard learned (even hard fought) lessons of life. It is certainly not contradictory. You have an extremely odd view of "obscene" if anyone who does not fall in line with your views, but lives their own experiences and presents their own findings is seen as "obscene."

I’m not sure if I’m misreading you or your English expression isn’t unambiguous but you appear to claim only a single exact portrayal of God is given via a study of Catholic and Jewish theology. If that’s what you're saying I cannot agree. Confusion abounds.
As to your impression I’m suggesting you yourself are obscene maybe my English expression is unclear? Glib and contradictory sophistry dished up by Christians to justify suffering in the light it builds a stronger faith/knowledge of God’s love to my mind an obscene doctrine preached to the masses from time immemorial to justify opression and slavery , fuel wars and the slaughter of millions. Not just in Christian theology either, instance Islam's preaching martyrdom being rewarded in the afterlife.
As to Satan and what he’s said to have been there are a number of variations on how he became what he’s supposed to be. All of them leave some very worrying questions about the so called Almighty.

I shall avoid drawing attention to any of the ‘hard learned (even hard fought) lessons of life' I may or may not have endured myself.

 

[ding]

An impressive sermon but it doesn’t explain the existence of evil or the supposed origins of Satan. In fact so impressive a sermon I find it very difficult to identify the deity you describe with the God portrayed by centuries of Christian theology. It also goes nowhere near the nature of the Crucifixion and how any deity, less than omnipotent or not, could engineer such an event. Mysterious ways? Very mysterious.

1. Not intended as a homily but a sharing of personal experiences.
2. Satan is said to have been one of the most powerful angels who chose ruling over serving.
3. My study of centuries of Catholic and Jewish theology (plus personal experience) show that this is exactly how God is portrayed. Twenty-first century man with the help of modern English and their own "personal" interpretations of post Protestant Reformations are possibly the foundation of your brand of Christianity.
4. Since you are of the mind that the Crucifixion was "engineered" I doubt you know anything but the Protestant Reformation view of the Crucifixion

My reaction to assertions such as "Suffering, while keeping faith in God's love, builds strength in body, mind, and soul, and also builds a stronger faith/knowledge of God's love “ is no less than one of repulsion. This glib and contradictory sophistry, so often dished up by Christians, strikes me as bordering on the obscene.

As I pointed out above, it is not glib, it is not sophistry--but hard learned (even hard fought) lessons of life. It is certainly not contradictory. You have an extremely odd view of "obscene" if anyone who does not fall in line with your views, but lives their own experiences and presents their own findings is seen as "obscene."

I’m not sure if I’m misreading you or your English expression isn’t unambiguous but you appear to claim only a single exact portrayal of God is given via a study of Catholic and Jewish theology. If that’s what you're saying I cannot agree. Confusion abounds.
As to your impression I’m suggesting you yourself are obscene maybe my English expression is unclear? Glib and contradictory sophistry dished up by Christians to justify suffering in the light it builds a stronger faith/knowledge of God’s love to my mind an obscene doctrine preached to the masses from time immemorial to justify opression and slavery , fuel wars and the slaughter of millions. Not just in Christian theology either, instance Islam's preaching martyrdom being rewarded in the afterlife.
As to Satan and what he’s said to have been there are a number of variations on how he became what he’s supposed to be. All of them leave some very worrying questions about the so called Almighty.

I shall avoid drawing attention to any of the ‘hard learned (even hard fought) lessons of life' I may or may not have endured myself.

Suffering has a unique way of teaching lessons that cannot be learned any other way. It takes two generations to forget the lessons learned from suffering by previous generations.

A proud man such as yourself cannot learn the folly of pride until he has been humbled. That usually doesn’t happen without a certain level of suffering. The exalted will be humbled and the humble will be exalted.

 

[ding]

Alexander Solzhenitsyn

“More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: ‘Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.’” “Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval...But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.’”

“Templeton Lecture, May 10, 1983,” in The Solzhenitsyn Reader: New and Essential Writings, 1947-2005, eds. Edward E. Ericson, Jr. and Daniel J. Mahoney (Wilmington, DE: Intercollegiate Studies Institute, 2006), 577

 

[BreezeWood]

"When Bad Things Happen to Good People"

Good People ...

bad things do not happen to good people, bad things happen to people and their degree of good - good people reside in the Everlasting.

 

[Karl Rand]

"When Bad Things Happen to Good People"

Good People ...

bad things do not happen to good people, bad things happen to people and their degree of good - good people reside in the Everlasting.

I know, and Father Xmas is going to come down your chimney and leave you all kinds of new toys and things. 2nd Thessalonians 2:11.

 

[Anathema]

Good People ...

bad things do not happen to good people, bad things happen to people and their degree of good - good people reside in the Everlasting.

We will have to disagree. I watched the best, most decent and faithful person I’ve ever known decay and wither away while his “God” ignored him at every turn.

That’s when I learned thst the Divinecpower is not “Good” by sny human definition.

 

[Meriweather]

I’m not sure if I’m misreading you or your English expression isn’t unambiguous but you appear to claim only a single exact portrayal of God is given via a study of Catholic and Jewish theology. If that’s what you're saying I cannot agree. Confusion abounds.
As to your impression I’m suggesting you yourself are obscene maybe my English expression is unclear? Glib and contradictory sophistry dished up by Christians to justify suffering in the light it builds a stronger faith/knowledge of God’s love to my mind an obscene doctrine preached to the masses from time immemorial to justify opression and slavery , fuel wars and the slaughter of millions. Not just in Christian theology either, instance Islam's preaching martyrdom being rewarded in the afterlife.
As to Satan and what he’s said to have been there are a number of variations on how he became what he’s supposed to be. All of them leave some very worrying questions about the so called Almighty.

Let's try again. You and I are approaching God/Religion from two very different perspectives. One of the things I learned early on is that politicians will try to appropriate religion to gain power by drawing people of faith into a political/national position. Religion will try to wrestle power from politicians using believers as well. Early on my Catholic teachers pointed to how Christ taught. He avoided preaching to nations and governments; he wasn't political. My teachers pointed out that Christ taught individuals how faith/God can touch an individual life, not a nation's life, not the life of the world nor even the universe.

I type a post relating how God has worked in an individual life, and in return I receive an angry post about politics and all that is wrong with the universe. Some of today's Christian politicians are great believers in abortion and have taught the nation that abortion is not a bad thing. Some of yesterday's Christian politicians taught that slavery was not a bad thing--never mind that Biblical slavery six thousand years ago was an entirely different proposition than the slavery of the 1800s. People look at universal chaos, worldwide disasters and disease and cannot see God anywhere in that. Yet in one of the earliest books of scripture, the Bible teaches us that God will not be found in great and powerful happenings--to look for God in the tiny whispers of our lives.

Too many people are still looking at great and powerful happenings and like Elijah who lived over ten thousand years ago and was looking for God in the exact same places, found nothing. God wasn't there. We were told this over eleven thousand years ago! What Elijah pointed out, and what Jesus taught, is that God is found in the small things of life, and is present to work with us in individual happenings in our individual lives. This is my faith, taught to me by the Catholic Church, and reinforced by the Jewish faith as well.

 

[BreezeWood]

Good People ...

bad things do not happen to good people, bad things happen to people and their degree of good - good people reside in the Everlasting.

We will have to disagree. I watched the best, most decent and faithful person I’ve ever known decay and wither away while his “God” ignored him at every turn.

That’s when I learned thst the Divinecpower is not “Good” by sny human definition.

e will have to disagree. I watched the best, most decent and faithful person I’ve ever known decay and wither away while his “God” ignored him at every turn.

That’s when I learned thst the Divinecpower is not “Good” by sny human definition.

Rabbi Kushner's conclusion is that one can believe any TWO of those three concepts and maintain a reasonable logic related to why bad things happen to good people

there is a flaw if Kushner did not define "good people" - there would be no need for his book if what he meant were people who had freed their spirit by accomplishing remission through the triumph in purity of good - those people by the Religion of Antiquity - The Triumph of Good vs Evil - as prescribed by the Almighty would already be in heaven - having defeated evil bad things would cease to exist.

the book is apparently about people who have goodness in them but are not pure and therefore remain subject themselves to either cause where intervention would be unwarranted as that is their purpose in being given life in the first place.


and faithful person ...

faith is recognizing the path however that alone is not the triumph required to free one's spirit to be eligible for judgement. sadly or as stated, the Almighty will not intervene again to save humanity, Noah - it is sink or swim for the individual as well.

 

[Anathema]

there is a flaw if Kushner did not define "good people" - there would be no need for his book if what he meant were people who had freed their spirit by accomplishing remission through the triumph in purity of good - those people by the Religion of Antiquity - The Triumph of Good vs Evil - as prescribed by the Almighty would already be in heaven - having defeated evil bad things would cease to exist.

the book is apparently about people who have goodness in them but are not pure and therefore remain subject themselves to either cause where intervention would be unwarranted as that is their purpose in being given life in the first place.

and faithful person ...

faith is recognizing the path however that alone is not the triumph required to free one's spirit to be eligible for judgement. sadly or as stated, the Almighty will not intervene again to save humanity, Noah - it is sink or swim for the individual as well.

I’m not here to debate what the standard for goodness and faith should be or what the criteria for Divine assistance are. You have yours and I have mine. I won’t insult yours but mine will not be changed.

The failure of my fsther’s God (the Christian one), and the inability of clergy of every other organized religion I talked to over almost 3 years to answer the simple question “Why?” Turned me off of organized religion completely and to a far more Spiritual path. It was only after that change in mentality when I was able to find useful answers.

 

[BreezeWood]

there is a flaw if Kushner did not define "good people" - there would be no need for his book if what he meant were people who had freed their spirit by accomplishing remission through the triumph in purity of good - those people by the Religion of Antiquity - The Triumph of Good vs Evil - as prescribed by the Almighty would already be in heaven - having defeated evil bad things would cease to exist.

the book is apparently about people who have goodness in them but are not pure and therefore remain subject themselves to either cause where intervention would be unwarranted as that is their purpose in being given life in the first place.

and faithful person ...

faith is recognizing the path however that alone is not the triumph required to free one's spirit to be eligible for judgement. sadly or as stated, the Almighty will not intervene again to save humanity, Noah - it is sink or swim for the individual as well.

I’m not here to debate what the standard for goodness and faith should be or what the criteria for Divine assistance are. You have yours and I have mine. I won’t insult yours but mine will not be changed.

The failure of my fsther’s God (the Christian one), and the inability of clergy of every other organized religion I talked to over almost 3 years to answer the simple question “Why?” Turned me off of organized religion completely and to a far more Spiritual path. It was only after that change in mentality when I was able to find useful answers.

.

I’m not here to debate what the standard for goodness and faith should be or what the criteria for Divine assistance are.

that sortof seemed to be the criteria for the thread, book ...

no problem about "organized religion" especially the 4th century christian bible.

 

[Anathema]

that sortof seemed to be the criteria for the thread, book ....

Discussion but not debate. They’re two different things. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind and mine most definitely won’t be. I was just looking to see what other people’s views were.

 

[BreezeWood]

that sortof seemed to be the criteria for the thread, book ....

Discussion but not debate. They’re two different things. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind and mine most definitely won’t be. I was just looking to see what other people’s views were.

.

Discussion but not debate. They’re two different things. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind and mine most definitely won’t be. I was just looking to see what other people’s views were.

I was just looking to see what other people’s views were ...

that is not how you chose to respond. neither the book nor the thread can be discussed without the principle of "good people" being established.

 

[Anathema]

On the internet it’s nice and easy to act Divine and Ignore those who annoy you. Buh bye Breezewood.