What’s Islam Got to Do With It?

[Annie]

Annie, you know as well as I do, the media speculates. It's entertainment. 21st Century panem et circenses.

And you are ignoring that in this case it's leaks that are fueling the stories. Seems many in Pentagon are not happy with went down for years, all in the name of sensitivity to islam. My guess is if something like this was putting your people in danger, you wouldn't be keen on it either.

I've got to go grade papers, catch you later.

Not one of my favourite tasks, people don't understand how difficult it is. No curve though Annie! Get them on competence/mastery!

I always do! LOL! My 7th graders are like teaching a gifted class. No matter what I throw at them, they want more. Avg grade in the class, across all subjects is an 87%!

 

[Kalam]

Worse, one of the tenets of Islam is (apparently) that killing infidels is a good thing.

O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty. And keep your duty to Allah. Surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8​

I actually find it ludicrous that with the real daily evidence of radical Islam confronting you you always post some idealistic verse from the Koran to refute. Your outlook is either intensely pollyannish or simply deflective. I don't know which but its actually becoming rather trite and tiresome. Perhaps you could simply responded to the realism of the issues.

(Note: this is a general statement and not about Hasan)

I've responded to the issue by demonstrating that Hasan's actions contradicted some of Islam's fundamental precepts. He's on his own -- I responded to the incident personally on the thread that was started about it; I have nothing more to say at this point. Pollyannaish is probably one of the last words I'd pick to describe myself.

 

[Annie]

O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty. And keep your duty to Allah. Surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8​

I actually find it ludicrous that with the real daily evidence of radical Islam confronting you you always post some idealistic verse from the Koran to refute. Your outlook is either intensely pollyannish or simply deflective. I don't know which but its actually becoming rather trite and tiresome. Perhaps you could simply responded to the realism of the issues.

(Note: this is a general statement and not about Hasan)

I've responded to the issue by demonstrating that Hasan's actions contradicted some of Islam's fundamental precepts. He's on his own -- I responded to the incident personally on the thread that was started about it; I have nothing more to say at this point. Pollyannaish is probably one of the last words I'd pick to describe myself.

Kalam, I respect you and have found you to be what most believe Muslims to be, reasonable and not wanting violence or war, from any side. You are correct about some of Islam's fundamental precepts being of a peaceful nature. However, there are many verses that are not and others that even are interpreted to mean that it's alright to lie about motives, though that goes against everything most of us believe God/Allah would 'inspire.'

 

[Kalam]

Kalam, I respect you and have found you to be what most believe Muslims to be, reasonable and not wanting violence or war, from any side.

Thanks, Annie. That respect is reciprocated and I appreciate that you're able to see past the false portrayal of Islam that individuals like Hasan perpetuate. I will be clear, though, and say that I don't oppose using violence to stop others from oppressing Muslims when necessary. I do take issue with the notion that collective punishment is an appropriate way of doing this... the overwhelming majority of our servicemen and women perform their duty honorably.

You are correct about some of Islam's fundamental precepts being of a peaceful nature. However, there are many verses that are not and others that even are interpreted to mean that it's alright to lie about motives, though that goes against everything most of us believe God/Allah would 'inspire.'

The so-called radicals within Islam rely on interpreting some passages beyond their clear meanings. In doing so, they neglect the equally-important enjoinments that require peace in most circumstances. One of my goals is making this as clear as possible so that people can judge Islam according to what it actually teaches. My intention has never been to deny the existence or downplay the significance of the teachings you mentioned. They are important to me as well with the exception of lying, which I do not believe to be legitimate.

 

[PixieStix]

A quote from the book "The Haj" by Leon Uris

Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. Leon Uris, The Haj

 

[Annie]

Kalam, I respect you and have found you to be what most believe Muslims to be, reasonable and not wanting violence or war, from any side.

Thanks, Annie. That respect is reciprocated and I appreciate that you're able to see past the false portrayal of Islam that individuals like Hasan perpetuate. I will be clear, though, and say that I don't oppose using violence to stop others from oppressing Muslims when necessary. I do take issue with the notion that collective punishment is an appropriate way of doing this... the overwhelming majority of our servicemen and women perform their duty honorably.

You are correct about some of Islam's fundamental precepts being of a peaceful nature. However, there are many verses that are not and others that even are interpreted to mean that it's alright to lie about motives, though that goes against everything most of us believe God/Allah would 'inspire.'

The so-called radicals within Islam rely on interpreting some passages beyond their clear meanings. In doing so, they neglect the equally-important enjoinments that require peace in most circumstances. One of my goals is making this as clear as possible so that people can judge Islam according to what it actually teaches. My intention has never been to deny the existence or downplay the significance of the teachings you mentioned. They are important to me as well with the exception of lying, which I do not believe to be legitimate.

Thank for that respectful response. I've bolded two sections that caught my attention. Are you saying that any non-Islamic troops in Islamic countries are fair game? I don't think so, but thought being 'super blunt' was the best way to further dialogue. Do you think 'moderate Muslims', which would include yourself, should put both the violent and non-violent clauses of Koran on the same footing?

I'm a bit confused, honestly, in your response. I mean no disrespect, just trying for clarification.

 

[Sunni Man]

A quote from the book "The Haj" by Leon Uris

Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. Leon Uris, The Haj

Leon Uris was a Jew and an avowed Zionist who's goal was to do anything to further the cause for the state of Israel.

He disliked arabs and said and wrote anything to put them in a negative light.

 

[Kalam]

Thank for that respectful response. I've bolded two sections that caught my attention. Are you saying that any non-Islamic troops in Islamic countries are fair game? I don't think so, but thought being 'super blunt' was the best way to further dialogue.

No, I believe that any person who deprives Muslims of their human rights is a legitimate target, regardless of that person's religious beliefs. Individual soldiers who purposefully kill noncombatants in Iraq, for example, have forfeited their right to life according to Islam. I do not believe that a person's mere presence as a soldier in an Islamic country justifies aggression against them.

Do you think 'moderate Muslims', which would include yourself, should put both the violent and non-violent clauses of Koran on the same footing?

The verses that allow violence only do so in specific circumstances, but observing them under those circumstances is necessary if Islam is to be defended. Of course, I'm more inclined toward peace, and both scripture and tradition praise those who choose mercy over retribution. Our right to defend ourselves and respond to enemies with force should be reserved, though. That's what I was trying to say.

I'm a bit confused, honestly, in your response. I mean no disrespect, just trying for clarification.

Absolutely; I apologize for being unclear.

 

[Kalam]

A quote from the book "The Haj" by Leon Uris

Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. Leon Uris, The Haj

Leon Uris was a Jew and an avowed Zionist who's goal was to do anything to further the cause for the state of Israel.

He disliked arabs and said and wrote anything to put them in a negative light.

I'm sure that makes him more credible in the eyes of those who oppose Islam.

 

[PixieStix]

A quote from the book "The Haj" by Leon Uris

Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. Leon Uris, The Haj

Leon Uris was a Jew and an avowed Zionist who's goal was to do anything to further the cause for the state of Israel.

He disliked arabs and said and wrote anything to put them in a negative light.

That quote go over your head?

 

[Diuretic]

Didn't Leon Uris write fiction?

 

[JW Frogen]

We all, every last one of us, have a self narrative which we use to define our place in the world. Now emotional instability can be caused by numerous reasons, environment, genetics, learned behavior, but the narrative we use to cope or not with it is self defined.

Jihadist Islam gave this man a ready made narrative to attach his sense of self to in order to lash out and kill innocents in the belief it would bring some meaning to his emotional storms.

 

[chanel]

Medicalizing mass murder not only exonerates. It turns the murderer into a victim, indeed a sympathetic one. After all, secondary PTSD, for those who believe in it (you won't find it in DSM-IV-TR, psychiatry's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual), is known as "compassion fatigue." The poor man -- pushed over the edge by an excess of sensitivity.

Have we totally lost our moral bearings? Nidal Hasan (allegedly) cold-bloodedly killed 13 innocent people. His business card had his name, his profession, his medical degrees and his occupational identity. U.S. Army? No. "SoA" -- Soldier of Allah. In such cases, political correctness is not just an abomination. It's a danger, clear and present.

washingtonpost.com

Well said Mr. Krauthammer.

 

[Diuretic]

Medicalizing mass murder not only exonerates. It turns the murderer into a victim, indeed a sympathetic one.

But the law will exercise its judgement as to whether or not murder was committed. And it should be able to do so without comments like these in the media. It's times like these that the true nature of any criminal justice system is tested. Given that the defendant has now been charged I would have thought that the matter would be sub judice and speculative comment like this would be prohibited as it could prejudice a fair trial.

 

[chanel]

What the hell are you talking about? No media coverage? No press? No opinions on message boards? Because it could prejudice a jury?

Not a country I'd like to live in thank you very much.

 

[Diuretic]

What the hell are you talking about? No media coverage? No press? No opinions on message boards? Because it could prejudice a jury?

Not a country I'd like to live in thank you very much.

No I'm not saying anything of the sort.

I would think potential jurors would be asked if they had preconceived notions of guilt or innocence and that might help a bit. Media coverage is acceptable, of course it is, but the sort of media coverage that suggests someone is guilty or innocent, in other words which enters into an examination of the facts in issue, would be prejudicial and shouldn't be permitted.

I remember a few years ago watching the Peterson matter on Fox News here and I wondered how the bloke could get a fair trial.

 

[JW Frogen]

The US is a wealthy democracy, saturated in consumerism and pop entertainment.

It should not be hard to find 12 people, or 12 million, who know nothing about this guy or indeed, any news at all.

Now, if we were trying Britney Spears for lip syncing, it may be impossible to have a fair trial.

 

[Ravi]

The US is a wealthy democracy, saturated in consumerism and pop entertainment.

It should not be hard to find 12 people, or 12 million, who know nothing about this guy or indeed, any news at all.

Now, if we were trying Britney Spears for lip syncing, it may be impossible to have a fair trial.

He's being tried in a military court, not a civilian one.

And anyone that blames this on pcism is an asshole, imo.

No offense, chanel.

 

[JW Frogen]

The US is a wealthy democracy, saturated in consumerism and pop entertainment.

It should not be hard to find 12 people, or 12 million, who know nothing about this guy or indeed, any news at all.

Now, if we were trying Britney Spears for lip syncing, it may be impossible to have a fair trial.

He's being tried in a military court, not a civilian one.

And anyone that blames this on pcism is an asshole, imo.

No offense, chanel.

The jury must be pooled from enlisted Marines then.

 

[chanel]

I didn't realize they had military courts in NY. I thought this was being tried in a civilian court. What did I miss?