What would have to charge before electric cars become economical?

[ScienceRocks]

What would have to charge before electric cars becomes economical? Firstly, the time to charge would have to decrease to within a few minutes...This is a good first step. Next would be the ability to go a few hundred miles(200-250) on that charge.

Most importantly it would have to be affordable for most people. I'd say 15-25 thousand dollars.

This would have to do the above. When do you think we will have it???

 

[uscitizen]

You answered your question in your title. They have to hold more charge.

 

[ScienceRocks]

200 miles per charge
Recharge within minutes
Under $25k

 

[uscitizen]

Or a quick and easy powerpak exchange system at all gas-n-go's.

 

[Old Rocks]

Barring that, a battery that could hold a larger charge and is cheap, would enable plug in hybrids to achieve far beyond the mandated mileage of 2025. Even if it took four hours at night to charge them.

 

[Mr. H.]

Good point. But when traveling over 200 miles, the 4 hour thing becomes an inconvenience. Most folks can't afford a second vehicle for puttering around.

 

[whitehall]

What would have to charge before electric cars becomes economical? Firstly, the time to charge would have to decrease to within a few minutes...This is a good first step. Next would be the ability to go a few hundred miles(200-250) on that charge.

Most importantly it would have to be affordable for most people. I'd say 15-25 thousand dollars.

This would have to do the above. When do you think we will have it???

Maybe the cost of charging and the economical availability of charging stations without taxpayer funding. The longevity of the typical batteries and the burden to both drivers and battery people of maintaining supplies not to mention the haz-mat problem of monster piles of gigantic batteries.

 

[Mr. H.]

Batteries are recycled. I see ads in the paper for old batteries. They have worth.

What currently has no worth, without your mentioned taxpayer funding, is everything else.

 

[Old Rocks]

Good point. But when traveling over 200 miles, the 4 hour thing becomes an inconvenience. Most folks can't afford a second vehicle for puttering around.

The point was that a plug in hybrid, like the C-Max Energi by Ford, with a 50 to 60 mile range on the battery, but a 600+ range as a hybrid, getting 47/47, would exceed the mandated standards for 2025 by a huge margin. Even if you had to plug in for four hours to recharge the batteries, it would not matter most days, as most of us in an urban setting put on fewer than 40 miles a day.

 

[Old Rocks]

What would have to charge before electric cars becomes economical? Firstly, the time to charge would have to decrease to within a few minutes...This is a good first step. Next would be the ability to go a few hundred miles(200-250) on that charge.

Most importantly it would have to be affordable for most people. I'd say 15-25 thousand dollars.

This would have to do the above. When do you think we will have it???

Maybe the cost of charging and the economical availability of charging stations without taxpayer funding. The longevity of the typical batteries and the burden to both drivers and battery people of maintaining supplies not to mention the haz-mat problem of monster piles of gigantic batteries.

As plug in hybrids, you charging station is your garage. And you pay for it. Longevity of the batteries is not a problem. No more than the longevity of the present ICEs is a problem. As for your huge pile of batteries, apparently you are completely ignorant of the value of Nickel or Lithium. Even old lead batteries bring a good price at a recycling depot.

 

[Mr. H.]

Good point. But when traveling over 200 miles, the 4 hour thing becomes an inconvenience. Most folks can't afford a second vehicle for puttering around.

The point was that a plug in hybrid, like the C-Max Energi by Ford, with a 50 to 60 mile range on the battery, but a 600+ range as a hybrid, getting 47/47, would exceed the mandated standards for 2025 by a huge margin. Even if you had to plug in for four hours to recharge the batteries, it would not matter most days, as most of us in an urban setting put on fewer than 40 miles a day.

Gotcha.

But I still like the diesel fuel approach. I think the whole hybrid/battery thing is a bit premature at this point.

Hydrocarbons are groovy.

 

[Old Rocks]

Good point. But when traveling over 200 miles, the 4 hour thing becomes an inconvenience. Most folks can't afford a second vehicle for puttering around.

The point was that a plug in hybrid, like the C-Max Energi by Ford, with a 50 to 60 mile range on the battery, but a 600+ range as a hybrid, getting 47/47, would exceed the mandated standards for 2025 by a huge margin. Even if you had to plug in for four hours to recharge the batteries, it would not matter most days, as most of us in an urban setting put on fewer than 40 miles a day.

Gotcha.

But I still like the diesel fuel approach. I think the whole hybrid/battery thing is a bit premature at this point.

Hydrocarbons are groovy.

While I think the improvements in power and efficiency in the diesels is great, I cannot make diesel at home. I can make electricity.

 

[whitehall]

Batteries are recycled. I see ads in the paper for old batteries. They have worth.

What currently has no worth, without your mentioned taxpayer funding, is everything else.

Everything is recycled including heavy metals and acid that will kill you. It don't mean everything is hunky dory. The byproducts of the manufacture of these big batteries is a serious hazard and the piles of junk batteries will sooner or later leach into the environment. The cost of replacing the batteries is substantial and charging stations require energy either from nuclear plants, coal fired plants or hydroelectric and they have to be maintained and manned. Lefties might think electricity comes from a divine source but there ain't no free lunch.

 

[Old Rocks]

Batteries are recycled. I see ads in the paper for old batteries. They have worth.

What currently has no worth, without your mentioned taxpayer funding, is everything else.

Everything is recycled including heavy metals and acid that will kill you. It don't mean everything is hunky dory. The byproducts of the manufacture of these big batteries is a serious hazard and the piles of junk batteries will sooner or later leach into the environment. The cost of replacing the batteries is substantial and charging stations require energy either from nuclear plants, coal fired plants or hydroelectric and they have to be maintained and manned. Lefties might think electricity comes from a divine source but there ain't no free lunch.

Dang, do you work at being stupid?

Lithium is not a heavy metal, and it is far to valuable a metal to be thrown away, or left sitting in junk yards.

By products of the manufacture. OK, flap yap unless you provide a link.

There are many Toyota Rav 4 EV's from the 1990s still running on the original NHIM batteries.
Toyota RAV4 EV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The RAV4 EV closely resembles the regular internal combustion engine (ICE) version - without a tailpipe - and has a governed top speed of 78 mph (~126 km/h) with a range of 100 to 120 miles (160 to 190 km). The 95 amp-hour NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh, charges inductively and has proven to be surprisingly durable. Some RAV4 EVs have achieved over 150,000 miles (240,000 km) on the original battery pack. It was also one of the few vehicles with a single speed automatic transmission at that time.

The University at which I attend classes has a number of charging stations, none of which are manned.

Portland State University | News

 

[Pogo]

I can't help re-reading the title over and over thinking it's supposed to say "what would have to change" (?)

This entire question of longer and longer-range batteries and charging stations is completely wrongheaded. EVs were never meant to work like that, and they can't. They're for the everyday local commute to the workplace, the store, the school, the errands that make up 70-80% of all our total driving activity.

For a trip longer than that (which makes up a small fraction of the average driver's highwayscape and yet is held up as some sort of standard), you just roll out the ICE and gas up as you go like any other day.

The EV doesn't replace the ICE - it replaces the local part of it. If we knock off two-thirds to three-quarters of our current petrol consumption by using EVs when ICEs are not called for, that alone makes a tremendous dent in fossil fuel consumption. But trying to extend the EV for hundreds of miles is like expecting a base stealer to run a marathon simply because both involve running.

 

[Old Rocks]

I can't help re-reading the title over and over thinking it's supposed to say "what would have to change" (?)

This entire question of longer and longer-range batteries and charging stations is completely wrongheaded. EVs were never meant to work like that, and they can't. They're for the everyday local commute to the workplace, the store, the school, the errands that make up 70-80% of all our total driving activity.

For a trip longer than that (which makes up a small fraction of the average driver's highwayscape and yet is held up as some sort of standard), you just roll out the ICE and gas up as you go like any other day.

The EV doesn't replace the ICE - it replaces the local part of it. If we knock off two-thirds to three-quarters of our current petrol consumption by using EVs when ICEs are not called for, that alone makes a tremendous dent in fossil fuel consumption. But trying to extend the EV for hundreds of miles is like expecting a base stealer to run a marathon simply because both involve running.

You are correct in that this is the state of the present technology. However, the physics of the materials that are possible to use in batteries show that long range EVs are possible using fairly cheap materials.
At the rate at which materials science is advancing it is possible that we could see such a battery in the near future.

However, lacking that, the plug in Hybrid is a very good solution. In that, you have both the EV for short commutes, and the long range vehicle in the same vehicle.

 

[ScienceRocks]

One of the few things I support Obama on is his leadership in energy technology. Now I don't know how economical it is, but the more research the more likely it will become so.

I just wish like hell he was more pro-science and other area's.