What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by bear513, May 22, 2013.

  1. Circe
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    Circe Silver Member

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    Well, I sort of liked it. It's fully 225 years out of date, but I've been studying the French Revolution so "Down with the aristos!" feels familiar and homey.
     
  2. Bfgrn
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    Bfgrn Gold Member

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    Read the whole article. There is current information.

    But try this litmus test when you are listening to conservatives. When have they ever stood up for the little guy over the big guy, the poor over the rich, the minority over whites, or women's equality?

    When you understand what conservatism is, every argument they make leads to the same end.

    Q: What is conservatism?
    A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

    When you understand this and view their words, ask the question; will this lead to some form of an aristocracy?

    The answer is always YES...


    Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
    William E. Gladstone
     
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  3. Circe
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    Circe Silver Member

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    Yes! That's what Robespierre said! And Hebert, and Danton, and especially the murderous Marat.......

    Probably these ideas need to be a little updated as of 2013, however.
     
  4. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Yes change begets more change and it is accelerating all the time. We have acquired more new products and technology in the last 50 years than probably in the rest of the history of the world. And those who are unable to adapt and capitalize on the trends and new innovations get left in the dust.

    Think how demoralizing it must have been to the wagon and buggy manufacturers as the automobile began consuming almost all of the personal transportation market. Ironically most of the first automobiles were electric but they quickly gave way to internal combustion engines at that technology improve and became more practical.

    And yet we still have buggy and wagon manufacturers but now they build their products for show, for pleasure, for nostalgia and don't pretend that they are still in the transportation business.

    Likewise those stores and shops that will survive will offer products for those who want to see what they are buying up close and personal, will feature superior customer service and atmosphere that the internet cannot provide, but most are also broadly expanding their internet services to accommodate those who prefer to shop that way.

    Conservatism has always included a strong confidence in the free market to provide prosperity for the maximum number of people. And the free market operates strictly on the concept of providing products and services that the people want and/or on persuading people that they want the products and services offered. Short circuit that process with too much government taxation amd unnecessary regulation, meddling, and interference, and there will be less prosperity for all.
     
  5. Bfgrn
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    Bfgrn Gold Member

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    I told you the article talks about current times. An aristocracy can take more forms than the ones in Robespierre's day. A plutocracy, a oligarchy, a corporatocracy.
     
  6. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Most of the stuff he cuts and pastes is. Or at least it has little relevance to whatever he is responding to. I don't think most of these folks who can't grasp what modern conservatism is, but who attack it relenetlessly, could articulate an accurate concept of modern American conservatism if their lives depended on it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  7. PMZ
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    I grew up mostly in the 50s and early 60s. I'm sure that if one were to poll the adults of those years as to what the secret of America was, almost all would agree on freedom. I believe that the same is true of today. What would be different between then and now would be the answer to the question, "where does America's freedom come from?" Then it would have been universally, "our democracy and our Constitution", now about 40% would answer "from our personal guns, and from a weak, limited government".

    What caused that cultural shift? IMO it's largely due to a product invented during the days that President Reagan was riding the waves of the Iran situation and perestroika, and perfected by Rush Limbaugh, media motivated extreme conservatism. The quality of Rush's business model is indisputable. He's been paid by advertisers over a billion dollars over his career for delivering that product. Many others, like Rupert Murdoch, and Glenn Beck have followed in his footsteps and achieved huge rewards in doing so.

    They all also benefited from a sub-message of their theme. That economic growth comes from the wealthy, and therefore tax reductions to the wealthy result in growth. Supply side economics. So small government, or high deficits, result in economic growth.

    Media motivated extreme conservatism was also boosted during those years by the relationship between the media gurus and the Republican Party. The GOP found a brand new and significantly powerful tool for their party by encouraging the success of media motivated extreme conservatism and creating, in essence, 24/7/365 unregulated political campaign advertising.

    As we politically moved from the success of Clinton to the failures of Bush, that connection became the life support system for the GOP. They put the media pedal to the metal to obscure Bush's failure and the crescendo peaked, as one would expect, in 2008 when the party was faced with a weak slate, McCain and Palin, trying to follow Bush's catastrophes against a strong Obama/Biden ticket.

    Since then there have been almost no successes from the marriage that people once thought was made in heaven. Despite the 24/7/365 negative campaigning by the media for the Republicans, President Obama was reelected. Recovery has ensued. Progress made in the ending of the holy wars, the decline in the deficit, and our largest global competitiveness issue, health care. The Republican's are now mostly known for their Congressional intransigence. Not much to build on.

    IMO the best end game for these American Dark Ages would be to return to where we were, our faith in the gift from our founders, democracy and our Constitution. I think that that return would ultimately put the GOP back into the game. I think that if the decline in opinion casting is matched by the returning preeminence of news casting, and the resultant maturation of an informed electorate we can go back to success.
     
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  8. itfitzme
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    itfitzme VIP Member

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    You got me of thinking of my father, who grew up in the depression.

    My father served in WWII and the Korean war. *He proudly hung the American flag out every Memorial Day. *No one doubted his patriotism. *

    He also served as Secretary Treasurer for his local chapter of the union, a member of the AFL/CIO. He was an active member of the local Moose Club. *He never missed a local and national vote. *He was a registered Republican. He was a Catholic. And he proudly paid his union dues, his Moose membership fee, his church donation, and his state and local taxes.

    He fought in WWII, against the aggressions of Germany and Japan. *He fought in Korea against the Communist aggression.

    In those days, service to country, to fellow co-workers, and to local community volunteer organizations was service to supporting freedom and America. *This included both donating time and money.

    Why? Because service to his country was service to its gov't, a gov't founded on democracy and suppporting freedom. *Service to the union was supporting a democractic and free labor force. *And service to the community was service to neghbors who also supported the ideals of democratic freedoms.

    He recognized that his military service, the US governmemt, the union, the local community volunteer organization, and his church were fundamemtally social organizations that required personal sacrifice to the larger social community in order to guarantee democratic freedoms.*

    He recognized the difference between personal responsibility to a socially derived democracy and the Communism of the United Soviet Socialist Republic.

    He understood the difference betweee choosing to give up some personal freedoms and Soviet Socialism.

    He understood that labor unions were democratic social organizations, not Socialism.

    He saw no personal or ideological conflict between a social democracy and Socialism. *

    Freedom wasn't a gun. *He had a rifle and a pistol when he served. His knives and machette were stored away in a footlocker in the garage. He kept a baseball bat by the front door at home. He took his driver's license and a pen to the voting booth. *He had a tool for everything, the right tool at the right time.

    When it came to work at his job, he arrived early, left work late, worked overtime, and worked holidays. Once the vote was in, the rules established, and the orders given, he did his job. *Like as with his tools,*he did the right thing at the right time.

    He knew the difference because freedom was something he fought for, something he worked for, something he voted for. *He understood the difference between living on a deserted island and living in a free and democratic society.*

    Freedom was the right to vote. And the cost of that freedom was in accepting that democratic vote.

    He understood the differences and didn't expect for freedom to be a free-for-all. He didn't expect freedom to just be free.
     
  9. PMZ
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    You and I remember it the same way. There were no stronger Republicans than my parents. There were no stronger Democrats than my immigrant grandparents. If they were alive today, I believe that my grandparents would continue to be proud, but my parents would be appalled.

    I give conservatives a hard time about wanting the past, but, in this regard, I'm with them.
     
  10. Bfgrn
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    Bfgrn Gold Member

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    I don't disagree with what you are saying. But you are really missing my point. The changes I've seen is not about 'products', it's about people. Personal interaction has diminished, community and neighbor has been replaced with gated communities and privacy fences. You would have had to lived it to miss it.

    Conservatives today have turned 'free markets' into a blind faith. Capitalism is an economic theory, not a moral theory or a religion. And BTW, liberals also believe in capitalism. But they also understand the "free market" doesn't exist. There is no such thing. All markets are constructed. There are rules to any market, and there is nothing magical or self regulating or 'invisible'. We only have to look at the recent financial crisis to see that unregulated Wall Street greed leads to total self interest and no regard for our nation. That is why government must regulate and intervene when there is malfeasance.
     

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