What the Left Isn't Telling You About US Healthcare

[Chris]

I dont think i want a government involved in the health care system as they cant seem to manage social security or medicare. if we have to donate for this next where and how will they squander this money? my biggest question is, are all these folks in washington going to participate in this health plan? washington is going after the insurance companies, how about the providers that are giving the services? the charges for tests and treatment are sky rocking, which in turn makes insurance premiums go higher. so i would say that if you start with the providers and their charges maybe that would help the problem and get these costs under control... this should not be the burden of the tax payers.

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

 

[Navy1960]

Navy ...that is the longest winded attempt I've ever seen to reinforce John Kenneth Galbraith's astute observation; to justify the right wing agenda...ME, MYSELF and I...

IF your patriotism is based on pieces of parchment and not on citizens of YOUR country, as in "We, the People", then you are totally obtuse to the intent of our founders...

Under our current system, the insurance corporations you want to protect can destroy a person's life because it creates profit and it creates more jobs. It doesn't matter if you pay your premium on time and you have been their most loyal customer...and they can deny you coverage when you are facing the biggest crisis in your life...

It is NOTHING like what our founders envisioned!

The Germans created plenty of "jobs" at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka... go fight for them...

I'm very secure in the knowledge that the founders of this nation wished every single person to be the masters of their own destiny. In fact, the constitution is very clear in it's meaning that liberty is best served the citizens have the power and not a strong Federal Govt. In fact, I would submit that those that advocate willingly giving freedoms to Govt. in favor of personal comfort are at odds with the original intent of the constitution. Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, all of them spoke on this issue and even you and I have debated this in other threads. What you assume though is that I and those that feel as I do have a blanket objection to healthcare coverage and are somehow shills for the insurance insdustry when nothing could be further from the truth. What I advocate is and have from day one on this debate is fixing the actual issues that cause healthcare to rise and do so in a manner where healthcare insurance can be available to anyone that wishes to purchase it. What I advocate is fully within the framework of the commerce clause of our constiution and is not some misunderstood doctrine that the likes of Lenin, Marx, and others have advocated over time. I submit that it is those that advocate healthcare mandated for all lack a clear understanding of our form of Govt. and it's history and have been indoctrinated in the good works of Lenin and have zero understand of the framers original intent that a person and not the collective or the Govt. is where the power of liberty and choice lay. While you may see this as akin to Nazi Germany, I would submit to you, that those advocating this sort of healthcare have more in common than I do.

Now that being said, there are many here that want healthcare reform, there are only a few here though that wish to do so within our form of Govt. and not one that has little if anything in common with the framers intent or our own constitution. While you mah not like the idea of personal liberty, or freedom of choice, or the power of a constitution that is meant to give that power to the people, it is what the framers intended and as such is there for all to see. If you don't think so then I have a suggestion try reading the 10th Amendment as a starting point, or even the 1st., in fact all of them, at one point or another put power in the hands of the people and place limits on the Govt. Again, if you and others wish healthcare as a mandate or a public option then you really should work within it, and stop making suggestions that are out of the intent of our form of Govt.

Navy, you're arguing a polarized debate against a straw man. NO ONE is proposing a government run health care plan. The House and the Senate are proposing reform and regulation over corporations and the decreasing possibility of being able to BUY your insurance as an individual through a public option...

The debate over our Constitution and our framers' intent has been going on since the beginning of our nation. It has been debated by men that have much more knowledge than you or I ... But I'm sure one common thread all "strict" Constitutionalists share... an attempt in some way shape or form to DENY some citizens the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

IF the intent of the framers is such a passion to you, then you should be incensed that corporations have totally subverted the role our founders saw for them...

You touched on it Navy...this IS a moral issue...even a life or death issue to fellow citizens that do NOTHING wrong or irresponsible...they get run over and crushed by a corporation that has NO public responsibility, but has gained all the rights of an individual...

As I've said before Bfgrn, and I do believe we even agreed on this matter that corporations when this nation were formed were very limited as to what they could and could not do. While I have do recognize that a society is measured by how it cares for those that are unable to care for themselves and have said so many times, what I do believe is that our society is better able to care for it's sick, it's poor , it's seniors, it's disabled, when the proper regulation is applied and the proper amount of deference is given to the citizen to make the right choices. As I have said, if anyone thinks that lowering healthcare costs is a bad thing then they will find in me someone who would completely disagree with that position. Where I tend to part company with the current advocates of this legislation is that somehow that by covering everyone, even those that don't want coverage it will automatically lower costs. The other issue I have is that, I hold the position that our Govt. is not empowered to pass mandates that it's citizens carry such coverage. There are in fact many things our Govt. can do to lower those costs so that people can have the access to the healthcare coverage they need. In fact, as most of these insurance companies operate state to state, under the commerce clause the Govt. has wide lattitude to legislate reforms if they so choose. What I suggest though, and continue to do so, is that this issue will never pass until the basic issue is resolved and that is what we are discussing, what is healthcare , is it a right? Until that time why not all of us agree that we can reduce these cost so that we can actually reduce the costs and deliver it to those that need it. I don't advocate any company that steps outside the bounds of any ethics should be held up as some kind of shining example to be emulated. However, these companies do have a right to profits as long as the laws of our nation allow them to do so. Just don't assume that those that advocate like I do, that I don't understand the moral issue involved here, in fact I do very much so, it's just that I believe that we can solve this issue if we as citizens implore our Govt. to do the things they are empowered to do and actually address the real issues on healthcare.

 

[KittenKoder]

I dont think i want a government involved in the health care system as they cant seem to manage social security or medicare. if we have to donate for this next where and how will they squander this money? my biggest question is, are all these folks in washington going to participate in this health plan? washington is going after the insurance companies, how about the providers that are giving the services? the charges for tests and treatment are sky rocking, which in turn makes insurance premiums go higher. so i would say that if you start with the providers and their charges maybe that would help the problem and get these costs under control... this should not be the burden of the tax payers.

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

Still not seeing the big picture I see, this does not surprise me.

 

[Navy1960]

This every other nation comment that pays half what we do ignore several factors among them , what nation is one of the most obese nations in the world? well that would be this one. A few other factors.

Crime in the United States is characterized by high levels of violence and homicide compared to other developed countries.[citation needed] Some authors attribute both trends to the fact that criminals in America are more likely to have firearms.[2] Crime statistics are published annually by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Uniform Crime Reports which represents crimes reported to the police. The Bureau of Justice Statistics conducts the annual National Crime Victimization Survey which captures crimes not reported to the police.

Yes we have one of the highest crime rates of any other nation too, and also one of the highest accident rates, as well as an illegal immigrant medical cost of over 80 billion dollars a year. So when this statistic is harped on by the WHO take into consideration all the factors before you just use that as means to measure this nation by. It's one of the reason, I've said and continue to say, that if you don't address these issue you will never fix these costs. That was just a few,

 

[toomuchtime_]

This every other nation comment that pays half what we do ignore several factors among them , what nation is one of the most obese nations in the world? well that would be this one. A few other factors.

Crime in the United States is characterized by high levels of violence and homicide compared to other developed countries.[citation needed] Some authors attribute both trends to the fact that criminals in America are more likely to have firearms.[2] Crime statistics are published annually by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Uniform Crime Reports which represents crimes reported to the police. The Bureau of Justice Statistics conducts the annual National Crime Victimization Survey which captures crimes not reported to the police.

Yes we have one of the highest crime rates of any other nation too, and also one of the highest accident rates, as well as an illegal immigrant medical cost of over 80 billion dollars a year. So when this statistic is harped on by the WHO take into consideration all the factors before you just use that as means to measure this nation by. It's one of the reason, I've said and continue to say, that if you don't address these issue you will never fix these costs. That was just a few,

It is not true that every nation with universal health insurance/health care pays half per capita of what we do. They do pay less but that's because they provide less. Canada has a much lower doctor-patient ratio than we do and the Canadian Medical association complains that wait times are dangerously long, not just inconvenient. In addition, Canada invests much less than we do in acquiring the latest technologies and equipment - if you have a serious illness, unless you are rich, more expensive treatments are probably not available to you. Additionally, in the US between $100 billion and $200 billion a year is spent on defensive medical tests and referrals because of the fear of litigation, and in Canada doctors don't have to protect themselves against this sort of thing. In short, the Canadian system costs less because it provides less and because doctors are not held hostage by bizarre medical malpractice system that is protected by politicians beholden to trial lawyers.

 

[Maple]

Chris do you know how Italy pays for it's socialized health care, try $8.00 per gallon of gasoline, and that was before the extreme rise in price for a gallon of gas. It's probably close to $10.00 or $11.00 per gallon now. You think that's a savings, because I sure as hell don't. What a job killer too.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I dont think i want a government involved in the health care system as they cant seem to manage social security or medicare. if we have to donate for this next where and how will they squander this money? my biggest question is, are all these folks in washington going to participate in this health plan? washington is going after the insurance companies, how about the providers that are giving the services? the charges for tests and treatment are sky rocking, which in turn makes insurance premiums go higher. so i would say that if you start with the providers and their charges maybe that would help the problem and get these costs under control... this should not be the burden of the tax payers.

You donate? Hmm, they just take my money.

 

[elvis]

i dont think i want a government involved in the health care system as they cant seem to manage social security or medicare. If we have to donate for this next where and how will they squander this money? My biggest question is, are all these folks in washington going to participate in this health plan? Washington is going after the insurance companies, how about the providers that are giving the services? The charges for tests and treatment are sky rocking, which in turn makes insurance premiums go higher. So i would say that if you start with the providers and their charges maybe that would help the problem and get these costs under control... This should not be the burden of the tax payers.

every other industrialized nation has a national healthcare system, and they pay half per capita what we pay for healthcare.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

and they pay double what we do in taxes.

 

[Oddball]

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

The depth and breadth of your economic ignorance is truly astonishing.

 

[Chris]

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

The depth and breadth of your economic ignorance is truly astonishing.

Your lies are truly astonishing.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5813a5.htm

 

[DiveCon]

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

The depth and breadth of your economic ignorance is truly astonishing.

Your lies are truly astonishing.

QuickStats: Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) Spent on Health Care --- Selected Countries, 2006

yet your link proves what YOU said to be a lie

typical fucking moron cant read his own charts

 

[elvis]

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

The depth and breadth of your economic ignorance is truly astonishing.

Your lies are truly astonishing.

QuickStats: Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) Spent on Health Care --- Selected Countries, 2006

your stupidity is truly astonishing.

 

[Oddball]

EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION HAS A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, AND THEY PAY HALF PER CAPITA WHAT WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE.

Why?

Because there are cost efficiencies in having one main insurer, and because that insurer can set drug prices so drug companies don't gouge the public.

The depth and breadth of your economic ignorance is truly astonishing.

Your lies are truly astonishing.

QuickStats: Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) Spent on Health Care --- Selected Countries, 2006

Linking to a federal gubmint site -which you obviously didn't even skim through- to "prove" your extremely limited menu of DNC talking points, and an even more limited scope of analytical thought proves what???

I mean something other than that you're a room-temperature IQ intellectual Lilliputian.