What should we do now: for Liberals

[deaddude]

I didn't say it made sense.

Not much ever does.

 

[Said1]

I'm the worst theologian ever, but, if God says slavery is acceptable, how can some Christians believe slavery is unacceptable?

I'm not good on theology either, but I do know that slavery was practised by just about eveyone at that time, and the bible does address certain societal issues almost like a guide. Some religions change with the times, some didn't.

 

[nakedemperor]

I'm not good on theology either, but I do know that slavery was practised by just about eveyone at that time, and the bible does address certain societal issues almost like a guide. Some religions change with the times, some didn't.

That's true. I'm just not at all equipped to reconcile the bible being the word of God but also somehow able to "change" over time, in meaning or interpretation.

 

[Said1]

That's true. I'm just not at all equipped to reconcile the bible being the word of God but also somehow able to "change" over time, in meaning or interpretation.

I can understand that, and I know you're not trying to be an ass about it. I used to discuss this a lot with my grandfather who was a Catholic priest for many years before he went into teaching.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Mr. Marbles
So you want to eliminate Israel?

Eliminate was a bad choice of word, because the pro-israeli western press associate "eliminate" and "destroy" with the imposition of an arab supremacist state in Palestine.

By elimination I meant "peaceful evolution from jewish ethnocracy to democratic state".

I was trying to be as concise as I can in order to please you, since you said my “books” on Israel were too long for your attention span.

Long posts = Marbles gets bored.

Short posts = José is misunderstood.

You just can’t win : )

Back to your question:

The answer is a qualified yes.

Let’s frame the “elimination of Israel” issue this way:

In retrospective, did I support the elimination of the white supremacist state known as United States of America, where blacks were bought and sold as products and later in its history regarded as second class citizens??

Did I support the “elimination” of that old USA through peaceful evolution towards a society of equals that truly reflects the ideals of its founders?

“We THE PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form...”

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL...”

Yes, I did (unfortunately, the fight against racial discrimination in the US was not as peaceful as I would have liked it to be).

Did I support the elimination of the german supremacist state known as nazi Germany, where jews and gypsies were regarded as second class citizens and subjected to sterilization and physical elimination and its replacement by the modern pluralistic german state of today?

Sure I did.

And what about the boer supremacist state known as South Africa under apartheid? In retrospective, did I support its demise either?

You bet.

I support the peaceful evolution of Israel from a jewish state to a multi-ethnic state just like the US or Canada a state for all the peoples who now inhabit Palestine.

Eventually this would mean the elimination of the jewish supremacist state known as Israel, not by revolution but by evolution.

In a previous post, I have already laid out the concrete, fundamental steps to turn Israel from a jewish ethnocracy based on a MYTHOLOGICAL jus sanguinis legislation (the right of return) into a democratic state. You can find it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8632&page=18&pp=15

As you can see in the following post, even a staunch, but HONEST, SECULAR Israel’s supporter like Comrade, agreed that this would be the ideal solution to this conflict.

A more “elaborated” version of the same post can be found here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8632&page=20&pp=15

Marbles, I conclude our conversation exorting you to prove to all members of the US MESSAGE BOARD that your solid, vigorous defence of minority rights does not stop at Canada’s borders.

I urge you to join our struggle to turn Palestine from a racist PROMISED LAND to only one people into a truly PROMISING LAND for all the peoples who call it home.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Jose, not only Jews may become citizens of Israel. Gentiles (meaning all non-jews) are also allowed to become citizens after a standard naturalization process. Zionism was not meant to be ethnically racist as you seem to be claiming.

 

[no1tovote4]

Jose, not only Jews may become citizens of Israel. Gentiles (meaning all non-jews) are also allowed to become citizens after a standard naturalization process. Zionism was not meant to be ethnically racist as you seem to be claiming.

There are many voting Arab citizens of Isreal, the assumption that their religion is the only basis to citizenship would be an incorrect assumption.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Therefore the actions of the 9/11 terrorists is not Jihad since they were the aggressors? They (the terrorists) are just perverting an idea in Koran about self defense?

It's a preemptive doctrine of defense. They see the growth of america as leading eventually to an erosion of their precious islamic shariah code of horrors.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Does this imply that God's meaning can change over time? Re: interpretation, that is?

dude it was the ancient world. Nowhere does it command jews or christians to go actively enslave. period.

Your argument sucks.

 

[nakedemperor]

dude it was the ancient world. Nowhere does it command jews or christians to go actively enslave. period.

Your argument sucks.

What argument? It was a question.

And even if the 11th commandment isn't "Thou shalt go actively enslave", the "you can only enslave someone for 7 years" and "you have to treat your slaves humanely" etc. are pretty disturbing. Since you know, God apparently thinks slavery's fine, even if he doesn't encourage it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

What argument? It was a question.

And even if the 11th commandment isn't "Thou shalt go actively enslave", the "you can only enslave someone for 7 years" and "you have to treat your slaves humanely" etc. are pretty disturbing. Since you know, God apparently thinks slavery's fine, even if he doesn't encourage it.

Those rules effectively make it an institution similar to indentured servitude, a cash free 7 yr, business relationship with payment in the form of food and shelter.

Not too shabby. Good point, NE.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The god of the old testament effectively ended slavery by putting conditions on it such that it was a totally new institution.

 

[MrMarbles]

Eliminate was a bad choice of word, because the pro-israeli western press associate "eliminate" and "destroy" with the imposition of an arab supremacist state in Palestine.

By elimination I meant "peaceful evolution from jewish ethnocracy to democratic state".

I was trying to be as concise as I can in order to please you, since you said my “books” on Israel were too long for your attention span.

Long posts = Marbles gets bored.

Short posts = José is misunderstood.

You just can’t win : )

Back to your question:

The answer is a qualified yes.

Let’s frame the “elimination of Israel” issue this way:

In retrospective, did I support the elimination of the white supremacist state known as United States of America, where blacks were bought and sold as products and later in its history regarded as second class citizens??

Did I support the “elimination” of that old USA through peaceful evolution towards a society of equals that truly reflects the ideals of its founders?

“We THE PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form...”

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL...”

Yes, I did (unfortunately, the fight against racial discrimination in the US was not as peaceful as I would have liked it to be).

Did I support the elimination of the german supremacist state known as nazi Germany, where jews and gypsies were regarded as second class citizens and subjected to sterilization and physical elimination and its replacement by the modern pluralistic german state of today?

Sure I did.

And what about the boer supremacist state known as South Africa under apartheid? In retrospective, did I support its demise either?

You bet.

I support the peaceful evolution of Israel from a jewish state to a multi-ethnic state just like the US or Canada a state for all the peoples who now inhabit Palestine.

Eventually this would mean the elimination of the jewish supremacist state known as Israel, not by revolution but by evolution.

In a previous post, I have already laid out the concrete, fundamental steps to turn Israel from a jewish ethnocracy based on a MYTHOLOGICAL jus sanguinis legislation (the right of return) into a democratic state. You can find it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8632&page=18&pp=15

As you can see in the following post, even a staunch, but HONEST, SECULAR Israel’s supporter like Comrade, agreed that this would be the ideal solution to this conflict.

A more “elaborated” version of the same post can be found here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8632&page=20&pp=15

Marbles, I conclude our conversation exorting you to prove to all members of the US MESSAGE BOARD that your solid, vigorous defence of minority rights does not stop at Canada’s borders.

I urge you to join our struggle to turn Palestine from a racist PROMISED LAND to only one people into a truly PROMISING LAND for all the peoples who call it home.

Sounds cool to me. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Sounds cool to me. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

No Marbles, it is not cool. But of course you would agree with him because you are an ignorant liberal that gets confused by lots of pretty rhetoric.

Jose is using the same argument that the liberal atheist minority in the US is using against the Christians - where they complain that their un-sacred freedoms are being infringed upon by those nasty horrible Christians who want to step on their un-sacred freedoms by celebrating Christmas instead of a "Winter Holiday" and other horrible things. It's the Christians fault that they are not experiencing their un-sacred freedoms. Total hogwash.

Although you can certainly make a case for calling Israel an ethnic "Jewish State" it still has the makings of a democracy FAR more than what the Palestines with their "Palestinian Authority" have. Even with the passing of Arafat, the Palestinians have a very long way to go before they can come even close to the democratic state that exists in Israel. And when an ethnic group is targeted for systematic killing, it is only normal for them to become "ethnic-centered". To accuse the Jews of racial discrimination is ludicrous.

This is just an insidious attack upon Israel by Jose despite the pretty face he puts upon his argument. When Jews are hated so fiercely and being deliberately killed by Arabs...if it walks like a duck….who's the real racist here?

 

[MrMarbles]

No Marbles, it is not cool. But of course you would agree with him because you are an ignorant liberal that gets confused by lots of pretty rhetoric.

Jose is using the same argument that the liberal atheist minority in the US is using against the Christians - where they complain that their un-sacred freedoms are being infringed upon by those nasty horrible Christians who want to step on their un-sacred freedoms by celebrating Christmas instead of a "Winter Holiday" and other horrible things. It's the Christians fault that they are not experiencing their un-sacred freedoms. Total hogwash.

Although you can certainly make a case for calling Israel an ethnic "Jewish State" it still has the makings of a democracy FAR more than what the Palestines with their "Palestinian Authority" have. Even with the passing of Arafat, the Palestinians have a very long way to go before they can come even close to the democratic state that exists in Israel. And when an ethnic group is targeted for systematic killing, it is only normal for them to become "ethnic-centered". To accuse the Jews of racial discrimination is ludicrous.

This is just an insidious attack upon Israel by Jose despite the pretty face he puts upon his argument. When Jews are hated so fiercely and being deliberately killed by Arabs...if it walks like a duck….who's the real racist here?

I always enjoy it when the majority believes it is the minority and is under attack. The religous right is in power. Who is atacking the Christian way? Christians?

You support Israel because it is under attack by terrorists, right? Yet there are only terrorists because they are being oppressed and have only one way to fight back. If America was occupied by hostile Islamic forces, wouldn't you resort to whatever form of warfare available to you?

The terrorists are wrong to use force for their cause. But Israel is wrong to build walls, and destroy towns.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I always enjoy it when the majority believes it is the minority and is under attack. The religous right is in power. Who is atacking the Christian way? Christians?

You support Israel because it is under attack by terrorists, right? Yet there are only terrorists because they are being oppressed and have only one way to fight back. If America was occupied by hostile Islamic forces, wouldn't you resort to whatever form of warfare available to you?

The terrorists are wrong to use force for their cause. But Israel is wrong to build walls, and destroy towns.

You don't know who is attacking the Christian majority in the U.S.? Wake up! The majority today is being held in thrall by the minority as much as they can get away with.

Yes. How are they being "oppressed"? It is obvious you think the Israelis have no claim to their land even though their claim goes back to the tribes of Abraham.

Walls and reciprocity is how people try to stay alive and defend themselves.

 

[ajwps]

Eliminate was a bad choice of word, because the pro-israeli western press associate "eliminate" and "destroy" with the imposition of an arab supremacist state in Palestine. By elimination I meant "peaceful evolution from jewish ethnocracy to democratic state".

I was trying to be as concise as I can in order to please you, since you said my “books” on Israel were too long for your attention span........

José to be as succint as possible, Israel is a sovereign country and no amount of self delusion or wishful thinking will make Israel evolve into something you have as a wet-dream.

You may define Israel as a Jewish ethnocracy or democratic state or dictatorship of the prolitariat. The fact remains that Israel will have to be destroyed by some form of warfare for your dream to come true.

Reality does not change because you want it to.....