What price 4 your childrens liberty?

[Mr.Fitnah]

Free health care for enslaving them to unpayable debt?
Cap and trade fraud to making a select few wealthy?

I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labor and in our amusements. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
- Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
-Thomas Jefferson

"The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
-Thomas Jefferson

The right of a nation to kill a tyrant in case of necessity can no more be doubted than to hang a robber, or kill a flea.
John Adams

 

[Caligirl]

Price for liberty -

I am willing to go through personal economic hardship so that the environment is sustained in a healthy way, and this is for my kids and grandkids.

I am not willing to attack foreign dictator regimes if the cost is lies from our leaders, promoting a culture of deceit and warfare, and consolidation of executive power, and loss of checks and balances.

That's for starters - Isn't it nice that we have the same motivations, even though we see the path to our goals in different ways? Isn't it nice that we can have a civil discussion about it?

And as for debt, the republicans are the ones that are worse overall about this - and most economists agree that deficit spending is necessary during a recession. So, I expect that will turn around beginning next year when the recession is lessening.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Price for liberty -

I am willing to go through personal economic hardship so that the environment is sustained in a healthy way, and this is for my kids and grandkids.

I am not willing to attack foreign dictator regimes if the cost is lies from our leaders, promoting a culture of deceit and warfare, and consolidation of executive power, and loss of checks and balances.

That's for starters - Isn't it nice that we have the same motivations, even though we see the path to our goals in different ways? Isn't it nice that we can have a civil discussion about it?

And as for debt, the republicans are the ones that are worse overall about this - and most economists agree that deficit spending is necessary during a recession. So, I expect that will turn around beginning next year when the recession is lessening.

Without hijacking the import of this thread, there is no historical proof that spending such as the stimulus bill does, ever ended a recession.

I would direct you to study both the 1920 Recession, and the Garfield administration, which did nothing, and ended the recession. Also, see Japan's lost 15 years trying the spending method.

As for actual numbers, these probably won't change your thinking, but for reference:
"In fact, every federal social program has cost far more than originally predicted. For instance, in 1967 the House Ways and Means Committee predicted that Medicare would cost $12 billion in 1990, a staggering $95 billion underestimate. Medicare first exceeded $12 billion in 1975. In 1965 federal actuaries figured the Medicare hospital program would end up running $9 billion in 1990. The cost was more than $66 billion.
In 1987 Congress estimated that the Medicaid Special Hospitals Subsidy would hit $100 million in 1992. The actual bill came to $11 billion. The initial costs of Medicare's kidney-dialysis program, passed in 1972, were more than twice projected levels. "

Doug Bandow on Medicare on National Review Online

So, if a possible 10 times the estimated $1.4 trillion gives you pause, as it should, think again.

 

[Navy1960]

I'm not willing to sacrifice my daughters future on environmental policy put forth by the IPCC and marketed by the likes of Al Gore that will saddle my daughter and her children with debt that they wll never be able to repay and a future where they will look to other nations for all their needs. I am not willing to give ground to a Govt. that seeks to burden my children and grandchildren with debt to pay for those that look to it rather than seek out their own paths in life. My daughter deserves a better nation than the one we received and the one she and her children will inherit will be one that is deep in debt to other nations, and one just in the last year has almost tripled the deficit. The very idea that this nation is somehow obligated to provide every need for it's citizens I find truley disgusting only because it serve to make our nation a nation of dependant slaves to a Master. In a lot of ways after over 20 years in the Navy and seeing how some of my fellow citizens feel and their willingness to hand over rights won with the blood of those I served with to a Federal Govt. for their own personal comfort saddens me greatly. It tells me our nation has truley come to the point where we have a choice, we have a choice to become a 3rd world nation that is indebted to others and produces nothing,yet comsumes everything, or a nation that is a leader to the world a beacon of freedom for others to follow.

 

[Caligirl]

Also not to derail the thread, but 1.4 trillion damn well gives me pause, I doubt 14 trillion gives me any more! But I am not an economist and had no such training, zero classes in it, so usually leave these analyses up to them. Anything in biological sciences, on the other hand, I can tell you about!

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The science is in and the discussion is over on man made global warming , cap and trade is a fraud to control behavior and energy production . The result will be Al Gore and his CO2 credit companies getting rich while nothing changes .

The countries financial policies are based on debt since the creation of the Federal reserve bank where congress abrogated it responsibility to regulate and create money .The problem has been going on for almost 100 years to blame one party is a waste of time, Now our debt is almost unservicable .Interest rates will continue to rise and we will have to borrow more to pay the debt.
The policy is wrong.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I am willing to go through personal economic hardship so that the environment is sustained in a healthy way, and this is for my kids and grandkids.

I think I'll go out an hug a tree. When cap and trade kicks in, that is all we will be able to afford in terms of recreation. I guess I best start getting used to it.