What needs to be done about healthcare reform

[Madeline]

I'm fried right now so I'm going to comprehend only this much.

Well, who knows, Big Fitz. I have never met anyone who paid COD for an operation.

I just shelled out cash for over $5000 in medical tests for sleep apnea plus the machine. If I had insurance, the price would have been 40-75% higher.

Trust me, it helps if we have just ONE price everyone is charged.

After what I went through to get the tests scheduled and find the prices for it? damn right we need one price or total transparency in prices. That doesn't require a single payer system. It requires a change in price reporting and making em public for comparison shopping. A good price war would drop prices for healthcare precipitously. Just like every other industry.

See the issue here should not be about how government runs health care. They shouldn't really be involved in that at all. What we should be talking about is consumer based solutions to make healthcare much more like other 'essential' markets like food and heating oil or electricity. Government should be worried about who's trying to cheat us and making sure our medications are safe for consumption. They shouldn't be worried about making me take my next physical or getting tests done. But this is now become pre-paid medicine, not insurance.

Not for nothing, Big Fitz but a union of 300 Million consumers sounds a bit more unweildly than government reform.

I'm not sure how "price transparency" could be achieved. Every medical provider does this shell game price shifting, even your pharmacy. Imagine the resistance to change! Then imagine, even if we overcame that, the shenanigans they'd get up trying to endrun the change.

It seems to me, and mebbe I am being dense, that your "objection" logically follows from your assumption that government reforms are bad. (Government controls are good, believe me. No one wants to be buying insurance in an unregulated market.) But I'm still not seeing why the approach Obamacare took was so deeply flawed in your view, unless my post about rating risks did not persuade you.

 

[wyomingpatriot]

That's an idiotic suggestion, to privatize healthcare completely. Okay, let's not have government step in at all. Let doctors charge as much as they want. If I have the cure for your disease, and I'm the only person you can go to, with no laws limiting what I can or can't charge...my natural human aptness for greed will make me rape you in the ass.
In the meantime, let's privatize police. And roads. And schools. Great idea. Unbridled capitalism. Just what made the big automakers come back to uncle sam with their hands out, when they played too rough.

 

[WillowTree]

Well Sarah Palin wasn't wrong about DEATH Panels after all.











you mother fuckers from wyoming are so patriotic ain'tya?

 

[Madeline]

Well Sarah Palin wasn't wrong about DEATH Panels after all.

you mother fuckers from wyoming are so patriotic ain'tya?

Think you could address the substance of what someone writes, rather than needling them about some geographical defect you seem to think they have with a bunch of fucking smilies, Willow?

 

[WillowTree]

Well Sarah Palin wasn't wrong about DEATH Panels after all.

you mother fuckers from wyoming are so patriotic ain'tya?

Think you could address the substance of what someone writes, rather than needling them about some geographical defect you seem to think they have with a bunch of fucking smilies, Willow?

Bite me fatass

 

[Madeline]

Well Sarah Palin wasn't wrong about DEATH Panels after all.

you mother fuckers from wyoming are so patriotic ain'tya?

Think you could address the substance of what someone writes, rather than needling them about some geographical defect you seem to think they have with a bunch of fucking smilies, Willow?

Bite me fatass

See the new thread in the Flame Zone, Willow.

 

[WillowTree]

Think you could address the substance of what someone writes, rather than needling them about some geographical defect you seem to think they have with a bunch of fucking smilies, Willow?

Bite me fatass

See the new thread in the Flame Zone, Willow.

Which one asswipe?

 

[Big Fitz]

That's an idiotic suggestion, to privatize healthcare completely.

That was the way our medical system was for over 140 years before the New Deal fucked it to hell and gone. Worked very well for it's era. Nothing stopping us from doing it again, except politicians intent on power over us. Controlling healthcare controls the populace.

Secondly you are assuming I am proposing to strip away all the advances made in consumer protection, weights and measures, truth in advertising, anti-trust/monopoly, anti-fraud and other similar types of government regulation that ARE useful. I am not saying that for one second. I am saying government needs to be utterly and completely removed from the administration of healthcare or involvement in the doctor patient relationship beyond criminal aspects that may exist.

Let doctors charge as much as they want.

We should.

You seem to think that all doctors do is pull numbers out of their ass on no basis for pricing. What is the basis for pricing medical services? Do you even consider this? Do you know how? They actually teach professionals how to do this in college.

1. Consider your educational costs. It took a lot of time and money for you to get to be a doctor. This time has a monetary cost, most often it still needs to be repaid in the form of MASSIVE student loans that can take as much time as a mortgage to repay. If you are thinking this shouldn't be a factor in your bill, tell your local medical college to drop ITS rates. After all, college tuition has been rising faster than 4 times the rate of inflation for almost 15 years, with little to no reason.

2. Consider your facilities. If you're Dr. Fleischer in Cicily, Alaska with no real equipment, or facilities beyond a clinic that's a glorified office filled with sick people... your expenses are low. But if you are Dr. House in Princeton, NJ with multi million dollar equipment you must pay for and pay off over time... you have much higher expenses.

3. Consider your patients. You cannot charge so much that nobody can risk coming to you, or will never be able to pay. You will go out of business pricing yourself out of the market. Therefore you must consider the first two aspects in the mix with this aspect on how much you can charge. If all your patients are welfare cases or working on the farm or in a local saw mill or mine, they are going to be generally poor and you can't rack up services that cost an arm and a leg. Nor should you offer them here. They will need to go to a specialist in a better market that can support the equipment and treatment or another facility to handle more than general practice issues.

4. Now compile your base monthly costs and per patient rate. Just like making a home budget, pile all your expenses together, and what you need to pay to pay them off at a reasonable rate PLUS what you need to survive on. Then you divide that by the expected traffic to you. THAT sets your base price. It's fair and provides you with the necessary funds to stay in business and with a roof over your head. As things get better or worse, you can flex your prices appropriately.

ALL professionals do this. All of them in some form or another. There is NOTHING wrong with it. It is basic economics. Now if greed bites someone in the ass and they are sick of seeing snotty nose kids for 20 buck visits, fine. Crank up the price and become the specialist that deals in sports medicine where all you do is scope knees and ankles. Your business will drop precipitously to only those who need your services which in the wrong market may be never, or be fine if you are in a big city and a constant flow of amateur and professional sportsmen pass through your doors.

Basic economics. This occurs even when corporations run the hospital. It happens even when government is in charge... except they don't have to ever worry about running their business into the ground. Why? Because if they screw up? They can tax you to cover their asses. So they get sloppy, and expensive where a business NEVER could. When you have competition, you have the ability to NOT patronize someone who is overcharging or providing bad service or are just out and out morons trying to robbing you. If all are managed by the government... you have nowhere to run to, and they don't have to care if you're being served properly because they can get more tax money from you at gunpoint (the IRS) to cover any losses.

In the meantime, let's privatize police. And roads. And schools. Great idea.

Yes. yes it is. There has been only one government program in history that I loved what they did. The US Railroad Agency. They did one outstanding thing with creating standardized motive power for railroads during 2 major wars... and then it went away because it's job was done!

Private schools perform better, and have greater accountability. Private police can work just fine. Cities can contract out the enforcement of their laws and demand the same level of accountability and compliance for less than any municipal system. If they have problems, they can FIRE the police management company, and bring in a new one that will do the job better. Corporations do this with security companies all the time. Same can be done for education systems. But the unions don't want that because then they can't protect the incompetent and their now useless positions as union administrators.

Unbridled capitalism.

Not advocating it. I am a student of history and have read books on the guilded age and the anarchist (communists) of the 1890's to it's peak under Woodrow Wilson's 'progressivism' and through the 1930's and its collapse with the fall of Nazi Germany. This was a time of great adaptation to industrial life that had to be done by society to survive. Look at India and China and other Asian nations. They have not gone through these trials yet and have not yet had the reformers listened to on a mass scale in government to produce a modern western style capitalist society as they are on the arc to do. Nobody thinks this is good.

The 16/6/365 work years are a bad thing. In NYC they used to have to fight the residents of tenements to cut air shafts and windows through the buildings to allow oxygen into the inner cores of these massive internal slums, cutting holes in buildings to prevent suffocation from LACK OF OXYGEN to inner rooms! Nobody's advocating returning to these times personified by Sinclare and Riis. Nobody wants the robber barons to return and repeats of the Teapot Dome scandal, the trusts and monopolies.

The question is how wide should the road be for capitalism. Is it going to be a single tight ally where one vehicle can pass at a time at rare points, or a superhighway 10 lanes wide where hundreds of thousands of vehicles can pass through quickly and safely and get to where they need to go. Currently, medical care is being shoved into a thin alley with NO ability to even turn around.

This is the 21st century. We need to walk away from the methods of the 19th century socialism wants us to return to.

Just what made the big automakers come back to uncle sam with their hands out, when they played too rough.

Well, that's what happens when socialist pantywaists run corporations. They think that Uncle Sugar is obligated to save them from themselves and once they are picked up, booboos cleaned off and they've gotten a kiss to make it better, they can go back to what hurt themselves in the first place! No, they should have failed, been broken up and bought up by their competitors. Then we wouldn't have seen the unions bailed out to continue doing what helped create the disaster. We would see Detroit potentially start to improve instead of languishing as a socialist mess. They need to suffer the consequences of their bad decision just like every household and small business in this nation.

Your issue is the double standard. In that you need to get some more understanding from other philosophical sources.

 

[wyomingpatriot]

Bigfritz, you are a true scholar, and a true capitalist. However,
It makes no sense to take a system in place 150 years ago and apply it to the reality today, and then assume it would work. Yes, in theory unbridled capitalism works, as does unbridled socialism. But really? Allow doctors to charge whatever they want? Economic principles mean nothing when there is no regulation. You explained why doctors should be allowed to charge as they wish, and that was a valid suggestion, except that thats not what would happen for the simple reason that human beings are greedy. Imagine yourself stranded in a desert, your car broke down, and the only way out for you is to have some shady mechanic fix it. He can charge you whatever he wants! Five thousand dollars for a flat tire, why not?
Privatize police? That's insane. Your world would be anarchy, ruled by almighty overlord Donald Trump.
Privatize roads? That's also insane. Now Donald Trump owns the Interstate. Now you cant even drive to your own home because I own the street you live on, and I don't want you to drive on it unless you pay me $500. If you wont pay than my henchmen will murder you. You know why? Because there's no police to come stop me and give me legal consequence.
Privatize healthcare completely? I can charge you whatever I want, not because I want to have a bunch of happy customers coming back to me, but because I want to be rich, and sooner or later they'll need me. If I have a monopoly on a particular market, you must pay whatever I tell you a service is worth.
This is why we invented laws and government, because fundamentally, nations are like children playing in the sandbox, who without rules and boundaries will destroy each other because we lust for power and wealth.
The world you propose is anarchy, ruled over by hyper-massive corporations and murderous gangs that call themselves "police". People dont just naturally settle into an economic reality such as the one you portray because it suits their interest. That assumes we all have ethics and morals, and given a taste of power, any one of us could become Hitler.

 

[mattskramer]

I think that healthcare should be handled similar to the way that education is handled. (By the way: Where in the US Constitution does it say that everyone has a right to an education?) There are public schools and private schools. There is tax money and private tuition.

Anyway, there should be healthcare available for everyone just as basic education is available to everyone through taxes. To what extent are services to be included is up for debate just as what courses and classes constitute education is up for debate. If you want better healthcare than what is provided by government, you may spend extra money and go to a private doctor.

Private teachers and private schools are available even though we have a public school system. Similarly, I think that private hospitals and doctors would continue to be available even if we institute government run “universal health care”.

The rich can pay for their own special care. Yet, the desperately poor would not be totally left behind.

 

[Bfgrn]

I have worked in various longterm healthcare facilities and agencies for the developmentally disabled. What people don't realize is that next to greedy, unregulated health insurance companies, this is the root cause of our problem. Medicaid and Medicare are out of control. Do you know why?
BECAUSE WE SPEND TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS KEEPING COMPLETELY DISABLED, USELESS PEOPLE ALIVE AND BETTER THAN THE TAX-PAYING, WORKING UNINSURED IN NURSING HOMES AND OTHER FACILITIES.
Some examples: A client with profound mental retardation is 63 years old, has resided in an institution for his entire life, is completely immobile, incontinent, unaware, mostly unconscious, an IQ of maybe 10, obviously could never pay taxes but will live to be a 100 because he has all the attention in the world from doctors and nurses... The median cost of keeping him alive and giving him the best healthcare in the country next to a congressman: $200,000 A MONTH!!!! THAT ADDS UP TO MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR HIS LIFETIME. WHY DO WE KEEP THEM ALIVE? SO THEY CAN LAY THERE IN THEIR OWN SHIT???
Another example: A resident in a nursing home with advanced Alzheimer's, 98 years old. Fits a similar description as above. Medicaid has spent millions on her over the last 15 years when her money ran out, so she can also lay in a bed in her own shit staring at the ceiling.
This is where your tax dollars are REALLY going people. I dont think even congress understands that. As you can see, altogether with at least a million inherently worthless beings in our society, this is costing us - the real working people who must die if we cant afford insurance and those who do have insurance - trillions.
I SAY LET THEM DIE!!!
Let the Nazi accusations fly. Whatever. You're an idiot if you believe that. How are we any better than Nazis when we deny care to a 20 year old with cancer who doesnt have insurance, but value the life of a worthless retard in a bed more?

Modern science and medicine has made it possible to extend an individual human's existence well beyond what almost everyone would define as a 'quality' life.

That is exactly what the health care bill tried to address in a responsible way by paying for end-of-life counseling, where that person could make choices for themselves now, so THEIR own decisions could be carried out when they are no longer capable.

BUT Republicans and right wingers twisted this into 'death panels' and offing grandma. It was irresponsible, despicable and UN American.

 

[wyomingpatriot]

Mattskramer has a good idea. Healthcare should be universal, like education, but there should be a private option for those who choose so.

 

[WillowTree]

I have worked in various longterm healthcare facilities and agencies for the developmentally disabled. What people don't realize is that next to greedy, unregulated health insurance companies, this is the root cause of our problem. Medicaid and Medicare are out of control. Do you know why?
BECAUSE WE SPEND TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS KEEPING COMPLETELY DISABLED, USELESS PEOPLE ALIVE AND BETTER THAN THE TAX-PAYING, WORKING UNINSURED IN NURSING HOMES AND OTHER FACILITIES.
Some examples: A client with profound mental retardation is 63 years old, has resided in an institution for his entire life, is completely immobile, incontinent, unaware, mostly unconscious, an IQ of maybe 10, obviously could never pay taxes but will live to be a 100 because he has all the attention in the world from doctors and nurses... The median cost of keeping him alive and giving him the best healthcare in the country next to a congressman: $200,000 A MONTH!!!! THAT ADDS UP TO MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR HIS LIFETIME. WHY DO WE KEEP THEM ALIVE? SO THEY CAN LAY THERE IN THEIR OWN SHIT???
Another example: A resident in a nursing home with advanced Alzheimer's, 98 years old. Fits a similar description as above. Medicaid has spent millions on her over the last 15 years when her money ran out, so she can also lay in a bed in her own shit staring at the ceiling.
This is where your tax dollars are REALLY going people. I dont think even congress understands that. As you can see, altogether with at least a million inherently worthless beings in our society, this is costing us - the real working people who must die if we cant afford insurance and those who do have insurance - trillions.
I SAY LET THEM DIE!!!
Let the Nazi accusations fly. Whatever. You're an idiot if you believe that. How are we any better than Nazis when we deny care to a 20 year old with cancer who doesnt have insurance, but value the life of a worthless retard in a bed more?

Modern science and medicine has made it possible to extend an individual human's existence well beyond what almost everyone would define as a 'quality' life.

That is exactly what the health care bill tried to address in a responsible way by paying for end-of-life counseling, where that person could make choices for themselves now, so THEIR own decisions could be carried out when they are no longer capable.

BUT Republicans and right wingers twisted this into 'death panels' and offing grandma. It was irresponsible, despicable and UN American.

We don't give a shit what you demonRats say "Grandma ain't shovel ready." so come NOV. you can just sit down and stfu.

 

[wyomingpatriot]

I'm not a democrat. I'm just sick of paying for your grandma to lay there in a nursing home in her own shit and then wiping it all over the walls because she's so out of her mind.

 

[Bfgrn]

I have worked in various longterm healthcare facilities and agencies for the developmentally disabled. What people don't realize is that next to greedy, unregulated health insurance companies, this is the root cause of our problem. Medicaid and Medicare are out of control. Do you know why?
BECAUSE WE SPEND TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS KEEPING COMPLETELY DISABLED, USELESS PEOPLE ALIVE AND BETTER THAN THE TAX-PAYING, WORKING UNINSURED IN NURSING HOMES AND OTHER FACILITIES.
Some examples: A client with profound mental retardation is 63 years old, has resided in an institution for his entire life, is completely immobile, incontinent, unaware, mostly unconscious, an IQ of maybe 10, obviously could never pay taxes but will live to be a 100 because he has all the attention in the world from doctors and nurses... The median cost of keeping him alive and giving him the best healthcare in the country next to a congressman: $200,000 A MONTH!!!! THAT ADDS UP TO MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR HIS LIFETIME. WHY DO WE KEEP THEM ALIVE? SO THEY CAN LAY THERE IN THEIR OWN SHIT???
Another example: A resident in a nursing home with advanced Alzheimer's, 98 years old. Fits a similar description as above. Medicaid has spent millions on her over the last 15 years when her money ran out, so she can also lay in a bed in her own shit staring at the ceiling.
This is where your tax dollars are REALLY going people. I dont think even congress understands that. As you can see, altogether with at least a million inherently worthless beings in our society, this is costing us - the real working people who must die if we cant afford insurance and those who do have insurance - trillions.
I SAY LET THEM DIE!!!
Let the Nazi accusations fly. Whatever. You're an idiot if you believe that. How are we any better than Nazis when we deny care to a 20 year old with cancer who doesnt have insurance, but value the life of a worthless retard in a bed more?

Modern science and medicine has made it possible to extend an individual human's existence well beyond what almost everyone would define as a 'quality' life.

That is exactly what the health care bill tried to address in a responsible way by paying for end-of-life counseling, where that person could make choices for themselves now, so THEIR own decisions could be carried out when they are no longer capable.

BUT Republicans and right wingers twisted this into 'death panels' and offing grandma. It was irresponsible, despicable and UN American.

We don't give a shit what you demonRats say "Grandma ain't shovel ready." so come NOV. you can just sit down and stfu.

Willow, you are the most ignorant fuck on this board. Your tiny little brain is filled with nothing but Fox News propaganda. You couldn't generate an original thought.

You are also vile as as unfeminine as a female could get.

 

[WillowTree]

Modern science and medicine has made it possible to extend an individual human's existence well beyond what almost everyone would define as a 'quality' life.

That is exactly what the health care bill tried to address in a responsible way by paying for end-of-life counseling, where that person could make choices for themselves now, so THEIR own decisions could be carried out when they are no longer capable.

BUT Republicans and right wingers twisted this into 'death panels' and offing grandma. It was irresponsible, despicable and UN American.

We don't give a shit what you demonRats say "Grandma ain't shovel ready." so come NOV. you can just sit down and stfu.

Willow, you are the most ignorant fuck on this board. Your tiny little brain is filled with nothing but Fox News propaganda. You couldn't generate an original thought.

You are also vile as as unfeminine as a female could get.

 

[Meister]

Modern science and medicine has made it possible to extend an individual human's existence well beyond what almost everyone would define as a 'quality' life.

That is exactly what the health care bill tried to address in a responsible way by paying for end-of-life counseling, where that person could make choices for themselves now, so THEIR own decisions could be carried out when they are no longer capable.

BUT Republicans and right wingers twisted this into 'death panels' and offing grandma. It was irresponsible, despicable and UN American.

We don't give a shit what you demonRats say "Grandma ain't shovel ready." so come NOV. you can just sit down and stfu.

Willow, you are the most ignorant fuck on this board. Your tiny little brain is filled with nothing but Fox News propaganda. You couldn't generate an original thought.

You are also vile as as unfeminine as a female could get.

Willow doesn't mince her words, you know where she's coming from on anything she posts. She's not ignorant, and certainly her words aren't from Fox, so I'm wondering who has the little brain. So in short...I disagree with you.

 

[Bfgrn]

We don't give a shit what you demonRats say "Grandma ain't shovel ready." so come NOV. you can just sit down and stfu.

Willow, you are the most ignorant fuck on this board. Your tiny little brain is filled with nothing but Fox News propaganda. You couldn't generate an original thought.

You are also vile as as unfeminine as a female could get.

Willow doesn't mince her words, you know where she's coming from on anything she posts. She's not ignorant, and certainly her words aren't from Fox, so I'm wondering who has the little brain. So in short...I disagree with you.

I know where she is coming from...Fox propaganda injected into a tiny little paranoid right wing pea.

 

[Meister]

Willow, you are the most ignorant fuck on this board. Your tiny little brain is filled with nothing but Fox News propaganda. You couldn't generate an original thought.

You are also vile as as unfeminine as a female could get.

Willow doesn't mince her words, you know where she's coming from on anything she posts. She's not ignorant, and certainly her words aren't from Fox, so I'm wondering who has the little brain. So in short...I disagree with you.

I know where she is coming from...Fox propaganda injected into a tiny little paranoid right wing pea.

Coming from a liberal in the echo chamber....such irony

 

[Bfgrn]

Willow doesn't mince her words, you know where she's coming from on anything she posts. She's not ignorant, and certainly her words aren't from Fox, so I'm wondering who has the little brain. So in short...I disagree with you.

I know where she is coming from...Fox propaganda injected into a tiny little paranoid right wing pea.

Coming from a liberal in the echo chamber....such irony

Projecting pea brain? Liberals don't have an echo chamber, that is a tool of the right.

REAL irony!

I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.
Will Rogers