CDZ What makes a good poster?

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.
What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

Flopper up there for instance is no right winger and he has little or no respect for President Trump and doesn't have a clue why any of us with any integrity can support the President. But he provides reasoned arguments and it is rare that he becomes personally insulting to anybody in a discussion. And he does not deliberately misquote me or mischaracterize the point I am making or presume to put thought, ideas, wants, hopes, words in my head or mouth. I don't agree with him on much when it comes to conservatism and especially the President. But I can fully respect him and appreciate his input.

I would cherish having him as a dinner companion or meeting him in pretty much any other setting because we could easily be friends. And he is a good poster.
Did you mean to send this post to me? If so I don't understand your central point.

"up there for instance is no right winger"????

It was a post to Jackson. I mentioned you however because I thought you might appreciate it so that's why you got a notice about it.
Got it.

When Obama said you can keep your doctor and insurance and Trump said he would repeal Obamacare those were not lies in my opinion because these statements were not intended to deceive. They were misstatements but not lies. In fact, I don't consider any violation of campaign promises to be lies because these statements are made based on current plans and the assumption that thing go the way the candidate hopes they will go.

Consider what is going on at the border. Trump has claimed more than once that the detention camps are not concentration camps. However, the definition of a concentration camp is a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities. He says things about the detention camps that are compete lies. He disputes what his own people say and what videos reveal and he calls it false news.

The detention camps are just one example. He does this with everything from something so trivial as the number attending his inauguration to claiming we have a nuclear deal with NK when we don't.

This type of behavior is known as creating a false reality. A person misstates know facts, twist the truth, and adds some outright lies to enhance his position. He ask his staff, his party and his supporters to back him up so they backup his lies and misstatements. Conservative media jumps in with evidence to support the president, liberal media goes the other direction. Then the alt-right and far left start making up shit so what was once simple facts become questionable.

What all this does is create an environment in which the various parties can not agree on the facts and if you can't agree on facts, you can not fix the problem.
 
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What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

Flopper up there for instance is no right winger and he has little or no respect for President Trump and doesn't have a clue why any of us with any integrity can support the President. But he provides reasoned arguments and it is rare that he becomes personally insulting to anybody in a discussion. And he does not deliberately misquote me or mischaracterize the point I am making or presume to put thought, ideas, wants, hopes, words in my head or mouth. I don't agree with him on much when it comes to conservatism and especially the President. But I can fully respect him and appreciate his input.

I would cherish having him as a dinner companion or meeting him in pretty much any other setting because we could easily be friends. And he is a good poster.
Did you mean to send this post to me? If so I don't understand your central point.

"up there for instance is no right winger"????

It was a post to Jackson. I mentioned you however because I thought you might appreciate it so that's why you got a notice about it.
Got it.

When Obama said you can keep your doctor and insurance and Trump said he would repeal Obamacare those were not lies in my opinion because these statements were not intended to deceive. They were misstatements but not lies. In fact, I don't consider any violation of campaign promises to be lies because these statements are made based on current plans and the assumption that thing go the way the candidate hopes they will go.

Consider what is going on at the border. Trump has claimed more than once that the detention camps are not concentration camps. However, the definition of a concentration camp is a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities. He says things about the detention camps that are compete lies. He disputes what his own people say and what videos reveal and he calls it false news.

The detention camps are just one example. He does this with everything from something so trivial as the number attending his inauguration to claiming we have a nuclear deal with NK when we don't.

This type of behavior is known as creating a false reality. A person misstates know facts, twist the truth, and adds some outright lies. He requires his staff, his party and his supporters back him up so they backup his lies. Before long he and supporters start to believe.

What all this does is create an environment in which the various parties can not agree on the facts and if you can't agree on facts, you can not fix the problem.

Okay let's go with the one example you detailed:

A detention center is NOT a concentration camp nor is it a prison. Any more than a holding cell at a jail is a concentration camp or a prison. They are temporary facilities until a legal process can be completed.

By law the President is not supposed to allow people to enter the USA illegally. But our convoluted and ridiculous amnesty laws allow illegals a hearing when they are in the USA and request amnesty. And the tens of thousands arriving at the border know that and most have been well coached to demand amnesty knowing they don't qualify for it.

The huge bulk of people in the detention centers are not eligible for amnesty and almost all of those who are not and who are released into the general population with an assigned court date do not show up for those hearings. And with the tens of thousands pouring across the border we do not have sufficient detention centers to hold all of them meaning a lot of people are in the general population illegally. Again, most are not eligible for amnesty.

Your description of the detention centers as concentration camps and/or insistence that the President lies when he says they are not concentration camps is just simply not a reasonable argument.
 
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That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.
Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.
I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.
So lies are ok, provided it's about something that doesn't matter, at least to you. I got news for you. Everything a president says matters to someone.

Trump contradicts documented fact and then disregards anyone who points out the inaccuracies. He even lies when he has no discernible reason to do so  and then turns around and tells another lie that flies in the face of the previous one. These little, pointless lies provide cover for the big, important ones. Who bothers to read about Trump lies today? His supporters like you just assume it's of no importance and fake news. His adversaries have long ago accepted the fact he's a chronic liar.

What's really interesting is through irony, evasion, self-contradiction, and obviously ridiculous claims, he let his supporters in on the joke. If everything is a lie, then the man who makes his lies obvious is practicing a peculiar form of honesty.
I cannot accept he is a chronic liar, but he does bloviate to create an image that he finds desirable. You cannot get over the less than truthful comments while completely ignoring his accomplishments in office. I at least acknowledge his puffing but find his actions far more important where you must disagree.
 
Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.
I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.
So lies are ok, provided it's about something that doesn't matter, at least to you. I got news for you. Everything a president says matters to someone.

Trump contradicts documented fact and then disregards anyone who points out the inaccuracies. He even lies when he has no discernible reason to do so  and then turns around and tells another lie that flies in the face of the previous one. These little, pointless lies provide cover for the big, important ones. Who bothers to read about Trump lies today? His supporters like you just assume it's of no importance and fake news. His adversaries have long ago accepted the fact he's a chronic liar.

What's really interesting is through irony, evasion, self-contradiction, and obviously ridiculous claims, he let his supporters in on the joke. If everything is a lie, then the man who makes his lies obvious is practicing a peculiar form of honesty.
I cannot accept he is a chronic liar, but he does bloviate to create an image that he finds desirable. You cannot get over the less than truthful comments while completely ignoring his accomplishments in office. I at least acknowledge his puffing but find his actions far more important where you must disagree.

The President speaks like all of us speak with some hyperbole and he does misspeak at times as we all sometimes do and/or gets a number or fact wrong as we all sometimes do. The difference is his gaffes/misspeaks are usually on social media or national television. We can back up and correct our errors, or somebody will correct us, and that's that. The President has no such luxury and has to deal with knee jerk reaction by the MSM and social media, many who read all sorts of 'bad' stuff into it and/or blow it all out of proportion.

I don't excuse him when he screws up and he does now and then. But he doesn't deserve the pure hatred and demonization that most of the left puts on him. And I'll forgive him a lot when he doesn't break faith with America and Americans and does what he says he would do when we elected him.

I think the best posters don't strain at gnats or stretch into the unverifiable in order to accuse him.
 
Flopper up there for instance is no right winger and he has little or no respect for President Trump and doesn't have a clue why any of us with any integrity can support the President. But he provides reasoned arguments and it is rare that he becomes personally insulting to anybody in a discussion. And he does not deliberately misquote me or mischaracterize the point I am making or presume to put thought, ideas, wants, hopes, words in my head or mouth. I don't agree with him on much when it comes to conservatism and especially the President. But I can fully respect him and appreciate his input.

I would cherish having him as a dinner companion or meeting him in pretty much any other setting because we could easily be friends. And he is a good poster.
Did you mean to send this post to me? If so I don't understand your central point.

"up there for instance is no right winger"????

It was a post to Jackson. I mentioned you however because I thought you might appreciate it so that's why you got a notice about it.
Got it.

When Obama said you can keep your doctor and insurance and Trump said he would repeal Obamacare those were not lies in my opinion because these statements were not intended to deceive. They were misstatements but not lies. In fact, I don't consider any violation of campaign promises to be lies because these statements are made based on current plans and the assumption that thing go the way the candidate hopes they will go.

Consider what is going on at the border. Trump has claimed more than once that the detention camps are not concentration camps. However, the definition of a concentration camp is a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities. He says things about the detention camps that are compete lies. He disputes what his own people say and what videos reveal and he calls it false news.

The detention camps are just one example. He does this with everything from something so trivial as the number attending his inauguration to claiming we have a nuclear deal with NK when we don't.

This type of behavior is known as creating a false reality. A person misstates know facts, twist the truth, and adds some outright lies. He requires his staff, his party and his supporters back him up so they backup his lies. Before long he and supporters start to believe.

What all this does is create an environment in which the various parties can not agree on the facts and if you can't agree on facts, you can not fix the problem.

Okay let's go with the one example you detailed:

A detention center is NOT a concentration camp nor is it a prison. Any more than a holding cell at a jail is a concentration camp or a prison. They are temporary facilities until a legal process can be completed.

By law the President is not supposed to allow people to enter the USA legally. But our convoluted and ridiculous amnesty laws allow illegals a hearing when they are in the USA and request amnesty. And the tens of thousands arriving at the border know that and most have been well coached to demand amnesty knowing they don't qualify for it.

The huge bulk of people in the detention centers are not eligible for amnesty and almost all of those who are not and who are released into the general population with an assigned court date do not show up for those hearings. And with the tens of thousands pouring across the border we do not have sufficient detention centers to hold all of them meaning a lot of people are in the general population illegally. Again, most are not eligible for amnesty.

Your description of the detention centers as concentration camps and/or insistence that the President lies when he says they are not concentration camps is just simply not a reasonable argument.
Concentration Camp:
A place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities. I think Trump's detention camps fits the definition pretty good.

These people are locked up in cages sharing everything. Some have been separated from there children and some will probably never see them again. There are 1475 kids that the government has misplaced.

Only the detainees lawyer is entitled to know where the detainee is being kept. Since most detainees don't have lawyers, family and love ones go from facility to facility trying find them. If they don't arrive during visitor hours, they have to wait to next day just find out if the person is in the camp.

Detainees that are seeking asylum are detained up one year. However, they are given a chance to end their imprisonment by signing an agreement for voluntary detention. Most do not, even if they have no lawyer and virtual no chance of being accepted they refuse to give up.

According to ICE, these people are not being punished because they have not been found guilty of anything. The fact is we treat convicted felons in federal penitentiaries better than most detainees. However, isn't that the plan?
concentration camp definition - Google Search
 
Did you mean to send this post to me? If so I don't understand your central point.

"up there for instance is no right winger"????

It was a post to Jackson. I mentioned you however because I thought you might appreciate it so that's why you got a notice about it.
Got it.

When Obama said you can keep your doctor and insurance and Trump said he would repeal Obamacare those were not lies in my opinion because these statements were not intended to deceive. They were misstatements but not lies. In fact, I don't consider any violation of campaign promises to be lies because these statements are made based on current plans and the assumption that thing go the way the candidate hopes they will go.

Consider what is going on at the border. Trump has claimed more than once that the detention camps are not concentration camps. However, the definition of a concentration camp is a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities. He says things about the detention camps that are compete lies. He disputes what his own people say and what videos reveal and he calls it false news.

The detention camps are just one example. He does this with everything from something so trivial as the number attending his inauguration to claiming we have a nuclear deal with NK when we don't.

This type of behavior is known as creating a false reality. A person misstates know facts, twist the truth, and adds some outright lies. He requires his staff, his party and his supporters back him up so they backup his lies. Before long he and supporters start to believe.

What all this does is create an environment in which the various parties can not agree on the facts and if you can't agree on facts, you can not fix the problem.

Okay let's go with the one example you detailed:

A detention center is NOT a concentration camp nor is it a prison. Any more than a holding cell at a jail is a concentration camp or a prison. They are temporary facilities until a legal process can be completed.

By law the President is not supposed to allow people to enter the USA legally. But our convoluted and ridiculous amnesty laws allow illegals a hearing when they are in the USA and request amnesty. And the tens of thousands arriving at the border know that and most have been well coached to demand amnesty knowing they don't qualify for it.

The huge bulk of people in the detention centers are not eligible for amnesty and almost all of those who are not and who are released into the general population with an assigned court date do not show up for those hearings. And with the tens of thousands pouring across the border we do not have sufficient detention centers to hold all of them meaning a lot of people are in the general population illegally. Again, most are not eligible for amnesty.

Your description of the detention centers as concentration camps and/or insistence that the President lies when he says they are not concentration camps is just simply not a reasonable argument.
Concentration Camp:
A place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities. I think Trump's detention camps fits the definition pretty good.

These people are locked up in cages sharing everything. Some have been separated from there children and some will probably never see them again. There are 1475 kids that the government has misplaced.

Only the detainees lawyer is entitled to know where the detainee is being kept. Since most detainees don't have lawyers, family and love ones go from facility to facility trying find them. If they don't arrive during visitor hours, they have to wait to next day just find out if the person is in the camp.

Detainees that are seeking asylum are detained up one year. However, they are given a chance to end their imprisonment by signing an agreement for voluntary detention. Most do not, even if they have no lawyer and virtual no chance of being accepted they refuse to give up.

According to ICE, these people are not being punished because they have not been found guilty of anything. The fact is we treat convicted felons in federal penitentiaries better than most detainees. However, isn't that the plan?
concentration camp definition - Google Search

I'm sorry, but that is simply so irrational when compared to the reality of the situation I can't take it seriously. I hope you understand.
 
Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.
I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.
So lies are ok, provided it's about something that doesn't matter, at least to you. I got news for you. Everything a president says matters to someone.

Trump contradicts documented fact and then disregards anyone who points out the inaccuracies. He even lies when he has no discernible reason to do so  and then turns around and tells another lie that flies in the face of the previous one. These little, pointless lies provide cover for the big, important ones. Who bothers to read about Trump lies today? His supporters like you just assume it's of no importance and fake news. His adversaries have long ago accepted the fact he's a chronic liar.

What's really interesting is through irony, evasion, self-contradiction, and obviously ridiculous claims, he let his supporters in on the joke. If everything is a lie, then the man who makes his lies obvious is practicing a peculiar form of honesty.
I cannot accept he is a chronic liar, but he does bloviate to create an image that he finds desirable. You cannot get over the less than truthful comments while completely ignoring his accomplishments in office. I at least acknowledge his puffing but find his actions far more important where you must disagree.
I find the passage of the tax bill a notable accomplishment, although accolades go to congress, not Trump. That bill would have been passed regardless of which republican became president. However, since Trump was the president he deserves the credit.

Trump's 6 months of threats to close the border, build and impenetrable border wall, and then cut off aid to Central American countries produced the expected results, hundreds of thousands of Central Americans storming the US border. Trump should have been prepared. He took 5 billion dollars of funds from defense allocations for wall construction and dealing with the border crisis and ignored the border crisis. Then tried to blame congress for the mess because they wouldn't give him more funds.

I agreed with Trump that Obama's deal with Iran was not good. However, to walk out on the deal was wrong and has accomplished nothing except returning production of enriched uranium to the level before the agreement and bringing the US to the brink of war in Middle East.

Whether Kim jong um is just playing Trump for a chump to get world recognition or really wants a deal is still up the air.

Trump's actions on the environment is appalling.

Trump efforts to destroy Obama's accomplish will inspire the next democrat president to follow suite. This started with the Bush administration, intensified under Obama and Trump has driven it even further, not a very positive development for the future of the country.

Well, I've real work to do and I've used up my allotted time posting so I'll have to bring this to an end. I'm pretty sure I have not changed your opinion of Trump and you have not changed mind. However, it's been a good exchange of ideas.
 
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So lies are ok, provided it's about something that doesn't matter, at least to you.

Yes, I am able to distinguish between form and substance. I evaluate a President based on his actions, not his eloquence.
 
what really get's me is people that have the writing skills to advance good arguments but prefer to make sly and petty verbal attack against the poster. I'm sure you've seen a number of these posts

Like this?
so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner

I'm genuinely curious: what do you find inaccurate about the statement?
 
what really get's me is people that have the writing skills to advance good arguments but prefer to make sly and petty verbal attack against the poster. I'm sure you've seen a number of these posts

Like this?
so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner

I'm genuinely curious: what do you find inaccurate about the statement?

I found it to be a sly and petty verbal attack against the character of Trump supporters.
 
what really get's me is people that have the writing skills to advance good arguments but prefer to make sly and petty verbal attack against the poster. I'm sure you've seen a number of these posts

Like this?
so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner

I'm genuinely curious: what do you find inaccurate about the statement?

I found it to be a sly and petty verbal attack against the character of Trump supporters.

But is it inaccurate?
 

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