What Kind of State in Israel?

[RoccoR]

irosie91, MHunterB, et al,

There are atleast two-sides to every story or major event. In the case of the Damascus Affair of 1840, there is more than aspect to look at it.

"It wasn't a first option!
The violence started with zionists migrating into the area."

Damascus, 1840. 'Nuff said.

what about Damascus 1840? muslims never attack jews without
FULL JUSTIFICATION what do you expect them to do when jews kill kids
as an ingredient for cookies?

(PREFACE)

Analogous to this event is the Salem Witch Trails.

The episode is one of the most notorious cases of mass hysteria, and has been used in political rhetoric and popular literature as a vivid cautionary tale about the dangers of isolationism, religious extremism, false accusations and lapses in due process).
Salem witch trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(SIMILARLY)

The Damascus affair was an 1840 incident in which the accusation of ritual murder was brought against members of the Jewish community of Damascus. Eight notable Jews of Damascus were falsely accused of murdering a Christian monk, imprisoned and tortured. Several of the imprisoned died of torture, and another was forced to convert to Islam. In addition, the Muslim populace of Damascus fell upon the Jewish synagogue in the suburb of Jobar, pillaged it, and destroyed the scrolls of the Law.
The affair drew wide international attention in particular due to the efforts of the Austrian Consul in Aleppo Eliahu Picciotto, who made representations to Ibrahim Pasha, who then ordered an investigation. Sir Moses Haim Montefiore, backed by other influential westerners led a delegation to the ruler of Syria and Egypt, Mehemet Ali. The negotiations in Alexandria continued from August 4 to August 28 and secured the unconditional release and recognition of innocence of the nine prisoners still remaining alive (out of thirteen). Later in Constantinople, Montefiore persuaded Sultan Abdülmecid I to issue a firman (edict) intended to halt the spread of blood libel accusations in the Ottoman Empire. The prevailing contemporary interpretation of this event is that of being a part of a long history of false blood libel charges against Jews.[1]
SOURCE: Damascus affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(COMMENT)

Today, we could use more modern genetic testing to determine the probability and potential for what drives such events. Through forensic testing, we could (today) explore whether the controversial VMAT-2 Gene was involved or some other inducement. The zest in which the Spanish Inquisition was carried-out was a form of mass hysteria in combination with vigilantism through group-thinking.

Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of “mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment” (p. 9). Groups affected by groupthink ignore alternatives and tend to take irrational actions that dehumanize other groups. A group is especially vulnerable to groupthink when its members are similar in background, when the group is insulated from outside opinions, and when there are no clear rules for decision making.

References (also see annotated bibliography of books, articles and websites below)

• Janis, Irving L. (1972). Victims of Groupthink. New York: Houghton Mifflin.
• Janis, Irving L. (1982). Groupthink: Psychological Studies of Policy Decisions and Fiascoes. Second Edition. New York: Houghton Mifflin.

SOURCE: What is Groupthink

Needless to say, such events occur periodically, even today. It is not tied to the Arab-Israeli dispute.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

loinboy, et al,

Fault is leaping over the diagnosis and attributing negligence. I'm not doing that at all.

I read your post several times and I can't figure out what you are trying to say. It is too much of a jumble.

He's trying to say it's all the Palestinian's fault and none of the Israeli's fault.

(SIMPLEST TERMS)

The Palestinian-Arab/Israeli dispute is quite similar to children who fight over toys. Two children want the same toys at the same time. In the end, one will get it and the other will complain to mother.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

loinboy, et al,

Perspective.

I believe in the democratic process. I also believe in the Rule of Law. Practices like the insurgency and terrorism are a very last resort. The Palestinians took it as a first option.

It wasn't a first option!

The violence started with zionists migrating into the area.

(COMMENT)

This is immigration intolerance, a mild form of apartheid. The immigration was not violence, it was the Arab reaction to it that sparked the violence and made it an issue.

The LoNs did what it did. Britain withdrew, and the Arab Armies attacked. The Arab League and the Palestinians chose force of arms as the means of settling the dispute.

That's not true! Arab nations had told the British if they were not going to protect the Palestinian's civil rights, then they would step in to do it. That's why the arab nations went into Palestine, to ensure arab civil rights that were being disregarded by the zionists.

(COMMENT)

This doesn't even pass the "smell test." Since when, today or yesteryear, does the Arab or Palestinian have a reputation for protecting the civil rights of its citizens? Every Arab government is either in turmoil or dominated by a strong central government. What do you think the Arab Spring is all about?

After the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (November 1947 - July 1949), Reprisal operations (1950s - 1960s - counter-Fedayeen guerillas action), Six-Day War (June 1967) Yom Kippur War (October 1973), Lebanon War (1982), First Intifada (1987–1993), Lebanon War (2006), -
Gaza War (December 2008 - January 2009), and now Operation Pillar of Defense (November 2012 - Ongoing), the Arab/Palestinian, the Arab League and the Iranian decision to the "Use of Force" as the first option to the settlement methodology has not been successful; Israel has survived (through 3 Major Wars, a half dozen minor wars, and a constant level of insurgency operations).

Israel started the last 6 wars its been in.

(COMMENT)

Again, the "smell test!" I'm just sure that the Israeli head of state just wakes up one day and says, time to attack an Arab country. Yeah, like that happens. It has nothing to do with the Arab Nations massing troops along the common borders; I'm sure that the Israeli head of state said, It's Yom Kipper, let's invite the Arab Armies over for a celebration. Or, was it a surprise attack tactically planned to start on the biggest Jewish holiday of the year.

I'm very sure that the Israelis just could wait for the Jabalia refugees to start something so the IDF had something more to do. I'm sure that the Palestinians were attacked by a 1000 of their own, who were cooperating with the Israelis and asked to be executed. Yeah, I can just imagine that.

Each event has a trigger. And each side is just as responsible for the cycle of violence as the other. The difference is, the Israeli doesn't play the part of the victim.

HAMAS, as a leadership entity, has been a very dismal failure. But PA President Mahmoud Abbas, despite internal obstacles, has managed to get the PA recognized as an entity and is moving towards statehood. If this is done, his State of Palestine may be able to make a claim and secure war reparations and property settlements from Israel (maybe).

Abbas, is an Israeli bitch!

(COMMENT)

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice. And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

The counterpart to using the Peaceful method, as Mahmoud Abbas is doing, is to choose the non-peaceful method, as Hamas is doing.

As I said, we've circled back around again, the Palestinian jump to violence as the first choice. I've seen no evidence of a concerted effort otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

loinboy, et al,

Perspective.

I believe in the democratic process. I also believe in the Rule of Law. Practices like the insurgency and terrorism are a very last resort. The Palestinians took it as a first option.

It wasn't a first option!

The violence started with zionists migrating into the area.

(COMMENT)

This is immigration intolerance, a mild form of apartheid. The immigration was not violence, it was the Arab reaction to it that sparked the violence and made it an issue.


(COMMENT)

This doesn't even pass the "smell test." Since when, today or yesteryear, does the Arab or Palestinian have a reputation for protecting the civil rights of its citizens? Every Arab government is either in turmoil or dominated by a strong central government. What do you think the Arab Spring is all about?


(COMMENT)

Again, the "smell test!" I'm just sure that the Israeli head of state just wakes up one day and says, time to attack an Arab country. Yeah, like that happens. It has nothing to do with the Arab Nations massing troops along the common borders; I'm sure that the Israeli head of state said, It's Yom Kipper, let's invite the Arab Armies over for a celebration. Or, was it a surprise attack tactically planned to start on the biggest Jewish holiday of the year.

I'm very sure that the Israelis just could wait for the Jabalia refugees to start something so the IDF had something more to do. I'm sure that the Palestinians were attacked by a 1000 of their own, who were cooperating with the Israelis and asked to be executed. Yeah, I can just imagine that.

Each event has a trigger. And each side is just as responsible for the cycle of violence as the other. The difference is, the Israeli doesn't play the part of the victim.

HAMAS, as a leadership entity, has been a very dismal failure. But PA President Mahmoud Abbas, despite internal obstacles, has managed to get the PA recognized as an entity and is moving towards statehood. If this is done, his State of Palestine may be able to make a claim and secure war reparations and property settlements from Israel (maybe).

Abbas, is an Israeli bitch!

(COMMENT)

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice. And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

The counterpart to using the Peaceful method, as Mahmoud Abbas is doing, is to choose the non-peaceful method, as Hamas is doing.

As I said, we've circled back around again, the Palestinian jump to violence as the first choice. I've seen no evidence of a concerted effort otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice. And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

Most people miss the obvious.

Fact: Fatah lost the 2006 elections.

Fact: Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

Now, how is it that Fatah and Abbas ended up being the PA in the West Bank?

 

[ima]

The existence of MOSES is not necessary to the evolution of events in the Middle east----the
concept of zionism is what galvanized the re-establishment of Israel Zionism has been a force for more than 3000 years . The existence or non existence of the rapist pig is
not necessary to the establishment of the filth of shariah----it was elaborated from
the filth of the Justinian code with some old arabian customs tossed in for extra filth

Moses was a rapist pig? Wasn't he the one god gave 2 tablets and said if your headache doesn't go away, smoke some of the burning bush?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think the Wakseh between the Fatah–Hamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice. And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

Most people miss the obvious.

Fact: Fatah lost the 2006 elections.

Fact: Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

Now, how is it that Fatah and Abbas ended up being the PA in the West Bank?

(COMMENT)

Oh, I don't think anyone has missed the obvious. We are quite use to the Palestinian People speaking with a forked-tongue.

Let's see which the Palestinian People appreciate more; the promise of war (the option of HAMAS), or the pursuit of peace (the option of FATAH).

Maybe as the President of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas, can accomplish more than he could as a member of a failed government.

Give it time, it looks good so far.

(MEANWHILE)

Sometime, when the Palestinian pursues the high road to peace, positive outcomes happen.

The UN General Assembly’s vote of November 29 overwhelmingly recognising Palestine’s "state status" and President Mahmoud Abbas’ decree of January 3 absorbing the former "Palestinian Authority" into the State of Palestine have established the State of Palestine on the soil of Palestine. It has become both a legal and a practical "fact on the ground" which cannot be ignored.

The words "two-state solution" have been recited together for so long that it is widely assumed that they are inseparable and that one cannot have one without the other. Indeed, Israel and the United States argue relentlessly that a Palestinian state can only exist as the result of a negotiated "solution" acceptable to Israel. Were this the case, the occupying power, which has never shown any genuine enthusiasm for a Palestinian state and has barely feigned any pretense of interest in recent years, would enjoy an absolute and perpetual veto power over Palestinian statehood.
SOURCE: Partitioning the “two-state solution” - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

Saudi Arabia will give the Palestinian government in the West Bank $100 million, Reuters reported. The donation comes as President Mahmoud Abbas has asked Arab countries for a $100 monthly "safety net." He promptly thanked Saudi Arabia, a longtime benefactor.

Abbas has been asking for the money since December, when the Israeli government decided to seize more than $120 million in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, the Guardian reported.
SOURCE: Saudi Arabia to give $100 million to Palestinian Authority

(QUESTION)

Are we moving closure to the old Two-State Solution? Or, are there still significant differences?

Will there be a difference between the Peace that the West Bank (FATAH) reaps, or will Gaza (HAMAS) benefit equally?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think the Wakseh between the Fatah–Hamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice. And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

Most people miss the obvious.

Fact: Fatah lost the 2006 elections.

Fact: Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

Now, how is it that Fatah and Abbas ended up being the PA in the West Bank?

(COMMENT)

Oh, I don't think anyone has missed the obvious. We are quite use to the Palestinian People speaking with a forked-tongue.

Let's see which the Palestinian People appreciate more; the promise of war (the option of HAMAS), or the pursuit of peace (the option of FATAH).

Maybe as the President of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas, can accomplish more than he could as a member of a failed government.

Give it time, it looks good so far.

(MEANWHILE)

Sometime, when the Palestinian pursues the high road to peace, positive outcomes happen.

Saudi Arabia will give the Palestinian government in the West Bank $100 million, Reuters reported. The donation comes as President Mahmoud Abbas has asked Arab countries for a $100 monthly "safety net." He promptly thanked Saudi Arabia, a longtime benefactor.

Abbas has been asking for the money since December, when the Israeli government decided to seize more than $120 million in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, the Guardian reported.
SOURCE: Saudi Arabia to give $100 million to Palestinian Authority

(QUESTION)

Are we moving closure to the old Two-State Solution? Or, are there still significant differences?

Will there be a difference between the Peace that the West Bank (FATAH) reaps, or will Gaza (HAMAS) benefit equally?

Most Respectfully,
R

Yep, you missed the obvious.

The two state solution has been on the table since 1937 and we are farther away from a deal than we were back then. It has always been a pipe dream. It is there to legitimize Israel.

 

[irosie91]

[O

The two state solution has been on the table since 1937 and we are farther away from a deal than we were back then. It has always been a pipe dream. It is there to legitimize Israel.

Tinmore finally makes a good point------the people who lately call themselves
"palestinians" and the rest of the UMMAH never lacked an opportunity to
create a STATE for ----the "arabs" of the area-----their BIG PROBLEM
was that they were asked to tolerate a "jewish state" in order to do so and
to give up absolute and complete control of the entire middle east for the
glory of the ISLAMIC CAUSE Muhummad did not give in ---he ordered and
GOT a comprehensive genocide of christians, jews, zoroastrians and "others"
in arabia should the "ummah" tolerate anything less in the rest of the
middle east?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't think I've missed it, since I've used it so many times. But, YES, it has been around for a while.

Yep, you missed the obvious.

The two state solution has been on the table since 1937 and we are farther away from a deal than we were back then. It has always been a pipe dream. It is there to legitimize Israel.

(COMMENT)

Assuming that Hamas, AIPAC and the Security Council don't queer the deal, I think it is imperative that US Foreign Policy and actions get behind Mahmoud Abbas and help him on the political and diplomatic effort to establish the State of Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

Mr R. If the PA becomes a "country" what happens to Gaza?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't think I've missed it, since I've used it so many times. But, YES, it has been around for a while.

Yep, you missed the obvious.

The two state solution has been on the table since 1937 and we are farther away from a deal than we were back then. It has always been a pipe dream. It is there to legitimize Israel.

(COMMENT)

Assuming that Hamas, AIPAC and the Security Council don't queer the deal, I think it is imperative that US Foreign Policy and actions get behind Mahmoud Abbas and help him on the political and diplomatic effort to establish the State of Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

 

[RoccoR]

irosie91, et al,

This is an interesting question.

Mr R. If the PA becomes a "country" what happens to Gaza?

(COMMENT)

By many accounts, including a couple members of this discussion group, there is no real love between the Palestinian that is the insurgent, and the Palestinian that lives for peace. There is no real dividing label or characteristic that you can put on them, for which you will not find an exception. And, there is no quick way to tell them apart.

My impression is that most of the Gazians are much more militant and are not interested in the FATAH Peace and Statehood Initiatives spawned in the West Bank. So, it is quite possible that the Gazians will stick to insurgent tactics. Although it is possible that "some" People of Gaza might be tired and want to chose the pathway to a peaceful settlement, Palestinians are known to kill their own that cooperate with those that oppose the insurgency.

At this point we just don't have enough data points in the set to accurately make a prediction.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

irosie91, et al,

This is an interesting question.

Mr R. If the PA becomes a "country" what happens to Gaza?

(COMMENT)

By many accounts, including a couple members of this discussion group, there is no real love between the Palestinian that is the insurgent, and the Palestinian that lives for peace. There is no real dividing label or characteristic that you can put on them, for which you will not find an exception. And, there is no quick way to tell them apart.

My impression is that most of the Gazians are much more militant and are not interested in the FATAH Peace and Statehood Initiatives spawned in the West Bank. So, it is quite possible that the Gazians will stick to insurgent tactics. Although it is possible that "some" People of Gaza might be tired and want to chose the pathway to a peaceful settlement, Palestinians are known to kill their own that cooperate with those that oppose the insurgency.

At this point we just don't have enough data points in the set to accurately make a prediction.

Most Respectfully,
R

my impression is that Gazans have been much more intensely propagandized ---
but even more important is they lost an advantage with the INTIFADA that the
PA people are regaining---that is the ECONOMIC interaction.

 

[P F Tinmore]

irosie91, et al,

This is an interesting question.

Mr R. If the PA becomes a "country" what happens to Gaza?

(COMMENT)

By many accounts, including a couple members of this discussion group, there is no real love between the Palestinian that is the insurgent, and the Palestinian that lives for peace. There is no real dividing label or characteristic that you can put on them, for which you will not find an exception. And, there is no quick way to tell them apart.

My impression is that most of the Gazians are much more militant and are not interested in the FATAH Peace and Statehood Initiatives spawned in the West Bank. So, it is quite possible that the Gazians will stick to insurgent tactics. Although it is possible that "some" People of Gaza might be tired and want to chose the pathway to a peaceful settlement, Palestinians are known to kill their own that cooperate with those that oppose the insurgency.

At this point we just don't have enough data points in the set to accurately make a prediction.

Most Respectfully,
R

my impression is that Gazans have been much more intensely propagandized ---
but even more important is they lost an advantage with the INTIFADA that the
PA people are regaining---that is the ECONOMIC interaction.

What makes you say that?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think the Wakseh between the Fatah–Hamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice. And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

Most people miss the obvious.

Fact: Fatah lost the 2006 elections.

Fact: Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

Now, how is it that Fatah and Abbas ended up being the PA in the West Bank?

(COMMENT)

Oh, I don't think anyone has missed the obvious. We are quite use to the Palestinian People speaking with a forked-tongue.

Let's see which the Palestinian People appreciate more; the promise of war (the option of HAMAS), or the pursuit of peace (the option of FATAH).

Maybe as the President of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas, can accomplish more than he could as a member of a failed government.

Give it time, it looks good so far.

(MEANWHILE)

Sometime, when the Palestinian pursues the high road to peace, positive outcomes happen.

Saudi Arabia will give the Palestinian government in the West Bank $100 million, Reuters reported. The donation comes as President Mahmoud Abbas has asked Arab countries for a $100 monthly "safety net." He promptly thanked Saudi Arabia, a longtime benefactor.

Abbas has been asking for the money since December, when the Israeli government decided to seize more than $120 million in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, the Guardian reported.
SOURCE: Saudi Arabia to give $100 million to Palestinian Authority

(QUESTION)

Are we moving closure to the old Two-State Solution? Or, are there still significant differences?

Will there be a difference between the Peace that the West Bank (FATAH) reaps, or will Gaza (HAMAS) benefit equally?

Most Respectfully,
R

rocco,

The people are going to take control of this, in my opinion.

Neither Fatah or Hamas are acting for them.

http://english.alarabiya.net/views/2013/01/18/261127.html

Sherri

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think the Wakseh between the Fatah–Hamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.

Most people miss the obvious.

Fact: Fatah lost the 2006 elections.

Fact: Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

Now, how is it that Fatah and Abbas ended up being the PA in the West Bank?

(COMMENT)

Oh, I don't think anyone has missed the obvious. We are quite use to the Palestinian People speaking with a forked-tongue.

Let's see which the Palestinian People appreciate more; the promise of war (the option of HAMAS), or the pursuit of peace (the option of FATAH).

Maybe as the President of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas, can accomplish more than he could as a member of a failed government.

Give it time, it looks good so far.

(MEANWHILE)

Sometime, when the Palestinian pursues the high road to peace, positive outcomes happen.

​

(QUESTION)

Are we moving closure to the old Two-State Solution? Or, are there still significant differences?

Will there be a difference between the Peace that the West Bank (FATAH) reaps, or will Gaza (HAMAS) benefit equally?

Most Respectfully,
R

rocco,

The people are going to take control of this, in my opinion.

Neither Fatah or Hamas are acting for them.

The Palestinian prisoners? intifada

Sherri

ISM, Free Gaza, BDS, IAW are all people movements. None of them are related to any political party. It is just as well.