What Kind of State in Israel?

[P F Tinmore]

Middle East
Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palest... JPost - Middle East


" PALESTINE" WILL BE A NJA STATE !!!!!

Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palestinian state

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

LAST UPDATED: 12/25/2010 17:33

PA president says US has failed to pressure J’lem, accuses Israel of ‘deception’ for blaming PA for impasse in talks.
Photo: AP
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

“We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

RELATED:
Abbas: We reached deal with Olmert on security
Washington Watch: Settlements are excuse, not obstacle

He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

“We are ready to have peace on the basis of international legitimacy and the road map, which we have accepted, as well as the Arab Peace Initiative,” Abbas said. “But when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence in it.”

The PA president criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and accused him of placing obstacles on the road to peace.

“He who prefers settlements over peace is responsible for the obstacles to peace,” he added.

“If he really was interested in peace, he would have at least preferred peace to settlements.”

Abbas accused the Israeli government of “deception” with the purpose of blaming the Palestinians for the current impasse in the peace talks. He also criticized the US administration for failing to put pressure on Israel to stop the construction in the settlements and east Jerusalem.

“The US administration has tried to stop the settlements, but Netanyahu refused,” he said. “We know that there’s a clear American position, but these days we don’t hear it any more. We hope we will hear it in the future.”

Abbas said that the PA has presented in writing to the US its position regarding all the core issues, but has still not heard Israel’s reply.

“All the final-status issues must be solved according to international resolutions,” he said. “All these issues will be resolved at the negotiating table, and this includes the issue of the refugees, which Israel tried to get rid of, but to no avail.”


Does the Pro- Palestinian poster see anything wrong with the above? Of course not. Are there Muslims in " Israel proper?" Of course there are. Just one more example of how Pro- Palestinian posters are incapable of intelligent discussion

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

There are no Palestinians in Israel either.

Is there a point here?

There are Arabs in Israel. Abbas has made it perfectly clear there will be no Jews/ Israelis in the Palestinian State. That is the difference. Do you understand now? Of course not; Anyone with the Pro- Palestinian mentality wouldn't.

The posted quote did not mention Jews.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not quite right.

I said this:

The democratic/parliamentary aspect of Israel is based on the citizenry of Israel and not borders.

Not this.

Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory.

Of course Israel has territory.
SOURCE: A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949

At the invitation of the President, the delegation of Israel took its place in the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[docmauser1]

The CounterPunch POV: "Israel was established to be a Jewish state.

The Saudi Arabia was established to be an arab state, etc.. Counterpunch are dumbass masturbants, of course.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not quite right.

I said this:

The democratic/parliamentary aspect of Israel is based on the citizenry of Israel and not borders.

Not this.

Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory.

Of course Israel has territory.
SOURCE: A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949

At the invitation of the President, the delegation of Israel took its place in the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You have to read the entire, Plenary Meeting submission, to include the British Mandate Termination and the Israeli Application.

Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?

(ANSWER)

For your convenience, I have linked the sub-link of the Application. Please note Subsection F of Part I, and Part II in Boundaries - Subjection B. (A: Arab State, B: Jewish State, C: The City of Jerusalem)

It is important to note all of these in order to get a complete 1948 picture.

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947

(COMMENT)

It is a matter of record that the UN General Assembly adopted this partition under Resolution 181, which essentially ratified the British Proposal and set the original boundaries for Israel; which we refer to today as the 1948 Boundaries.

I sincerely apologize for not being clear. I made the assumption that when citing the UN Acceptance that it would be understood that the "Application" and "British Recommendation," which where annexes to the Plenary Meeting record, where included.

The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above. You actually cannot hold a seat in the General Assembly if they don't know where your country is located. They just don't do business that way.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[docmauser1]

Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?

When have palistanians (never having a state, borders and who aren't even a people) ever had territory for others to acquire?

 

[jillian]

looks like georgieboy just got owned again

mah nishtanah halailah hazeh micol halailot?

 

[Jos]

looks like georgieboy just got owned again

mah nishtanah halailah hazeh micol halailot?

Mah nishtana halaila hazeh mikol-haleilot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?

 

[toastman]

looks like georgieboy just got owned again

mah nishtanah halailah hazeh micol halailot?

Mah nishtana halaila hazeh mikol-haleilot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?

How many Iranians died at the hands of their government during the protest

 

[Jos]

mah nishtanah halailah hazeh micol halailot?

Mah nishtana halaila hazeh mikol-haleilot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?

How many Iranians died at the hands of their government during the protest

Wrong forum, shlomo

 

[RoccoR]

docmauser1; P F Tinmore, et al,

Palestine was never a country. It has always been a Region Destination, like saying today, "The Middle East." Maybe 3000 years ago, most of what was Palestine was divided into two Kingdoms:

• The northern portion of Palestine was (the first) Kingdom of Israel.
• The southern portion of Palestine was Kingdom of Judah.

But this is very ancient history and not really applicable today. But back then, both the Israelis and the Judeans were Palestinians.

The Region of Palestine was one of the most heavily conquered regions in history. Nearly every empire owned it at one time or another. The last empire to own the region was the Ottoman Empire. At the conclusion of the WWII, Palestine was carved out of the British Mandate, along with other lands under the French and the British Mandates:

• Iraq -- from British Mandate 1921
• Jordan -- from British Mandate 1921
• Saudi Arabia -- by Ibn Saud in 1932
• Lebanon -- from French Mandate 1943
• Syria -- from French Mandate 1946
• Israel -- from British Mandate 1949
• etc

Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?

When have palistanians (never having a state, borders and who aren't even a people) ever had territory for others to acquire?

(COMMENT)

The (British) "Mandate of Palestine (1920/23)," under the signatory of the Legue of Nations following WWI, reaasserted the name "Palestine." And in 1948, Israel was again reconstituted as a Country (name sake for the Kingdom of 3 Centuries past).

Under the "Mandate of Palestine" there was always an intention of establishing a National Home (not further identified) for the Jewish People (NHJP). The NHJP was supposed to be protected jointly by the British and the Arab Hashemite leadership. (Today we see how well that assigned Arab responsibility worked for us.)

What is of special interest, is that the Arabs had leftover land to create a second state; some of which today is called the "Occupied Territories." However, the Arab leadership never took a leadership role in developing these lands. They could have created a Kingdom of Palestine, if they had taken the initiative a half century ago.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[AbeBird]

Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
[/url]

Counterpunch is countertruth. And you are a lier.

 

[georgephillip]

Middle East



" PALESTINE" WILL BE A NJA STATE !!!!!

Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palestinian state

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

LAST UPDATED: 12/25/2010 17:33

PA president says US has failed to pressure J’lem, accuses Israel of ‘deception’ for blaming PA for impasse in talks.
Photo: AP
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

“We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

RELATED:
Abbas: We reached deal with Olmert on security
Washington Watch: Settlements are excuse, not obstacle

He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

“We are ready to have peace on the basis of international legitimacy and the road map, which we have accepted, as well as the Arab Peace Initiative,” Abbas said. “But when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence in it.”

The PA president criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and accused him of placing obstacles on the road to peace.

“He who prefers settlements over peace is responsible for the obstacles to peace,” he added.

“If he really was interested in peace, he would have at least preferred peace to settlements.”

Abbas accused the Israeli government of “deception” with the purpose of blaming the Palestinians for the current impasse in the peace talks. He also criticized the US administration for failing to put pressure on Israel to stop the construction in the settlements and east Jerusalem.

“The US administration has tried to stop the settlements, but Netanyahu refused,” he said. “We know that there’s a clear American position, but these days we don’t hear it any more. We hope we will hear it in the future.”

Abbas said that the PA has presented in writing to the US its position regarding all the core issues, but has still not heard Israel’s reply.

“All the final-status issues must be solved according to international resolutions,” he said. “All these issues will be resolved at the negotiating table, and this includes the issue of the refugees, which Israel tried to get rid of, but to no avail.”


Does the Pro- Palestinian poster see anything wrong with the above? Of course not. Are there Muslims in " Israel proper?" Of course there are. Just one more example of how Pro- Palestinian posters are incapable of intelligent discussion

let me get this straight: you scarcely understand the broader implications of the information you just posted, and yet you possess the blind swagger to condescend to critics of Israel??? You employ terms like "Israel proper"...and ask bewilderingly "are their Muslims in Israel" without adding any minor stab at a point??? Dude you are a classic example of the Zionsit smoke-and-mirrors strategy....

Click here: Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palest... JPost - Middle East Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palest... JPost - Middle East Every Copy and Paste Needs To Be Linked To It's Source.

Dude; Here is the link to the article I posted. The " broader implications" of what I posted is that I believe Israel has the right to exist ? Too bad. Israel ( which does have Arabs) is considered " Racist" but Abbas having a NJA Policy isn't? Typical Pro- Palestinian racist double standard. " Israel proper" isn't a term I made up. It's a term others have used in referring to the 1967 Borders that the Arabs never accepted. I will ask again.... EXACTLY what are the Palestinians contributing to " negotiations?" There will not be an answer.... there never is. Pro- Palestinian are a Classic example of Bigotry, Hate, and drinking the Pro- Palestinian Kool- Aid.

Within which borders does the Jewish State have a right to exist?
Specifically, what's Israel's Eastern border?
How much room will be left for six million Arabs?

"Netanyahu opposes all Palestinian Arab claims for a state of their own and favors measures to restrict the rights of Arabs. whether within Israel or the West Bank. Jabotinsky was very close to Mussolini’s brand of fascism, and the Revisionist youth movement, Betar, maintained a naval academy in Italy from 1934 to 1938. But even Jabotinsky believed that Arabs should play some part in Israel’s political process, but always, of course, subservient to Jews."

The Enigma of Israel » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[georgephillip]

Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
[/url]

Counterpunch is countertruth. And you are a lier.

"Zionism was supposed to make Jewish existence 'normal;' very different than in a Diaspora peopled by goyim, but there is nothing 'normal' in the life and culture of Israel today—which has not lived in peace with its neighbors, much less let the Palestinians have elementary human rights in the lands in which they have lived for thousands of years.

"If war is the criteria of 'normal' existence, then Zionism has become a failed nightmare. It was, when first conceptualized, not supposed to be this way."

The Enigma of Israel » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[georgephillip]

The CounterPunch POV: "Israel was established to be a Jewish state.

The Saudi Arabia was established to be an arab state, etc.. Counterpunch are dumbass masturbants, of course.

How many Jewish children have Saudis killed?

 

[Hossfly]

Mah nishtana halaila hazeh mikol-haleilot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?

How many Iranians died at the hands of their government during the protest

Wrong forum, shlomo

I guess Mr. Gooz here doesn't want us to discuss the Iranian protestors who were killed by his own leaders. So tell us, Mr. Gooz, even though evidently you don't like it brought up, why do they really have to rape the young women thrown into the prisons there the night before these young women are to be killed? Is it really important that these young women are not virgins before they are killed? Isn't it enough that these young women realize that they are going to be murdered?

 

[proudveteran06]

The CounterPunch POV: "Israel was established to be a Jewish state.

The Saudi Arabia was established to be an arab state, etc.. Counterpunch are dumbass masturbants, of course.

How many Jewish children have Saudis killed?

Another stupid question due to Pro- Palestinian ignorance. Jews are VERBOTEN in Saudi Arabia. Is that racist? According to the Pro- Palestinian mentality.... Naaaaaa

 

[georgephillip]

The Saudi Arabia was established to be an arab state, etc.. Counterpunch are dumbass masturbants, of course.

How many Jewish children have Saudis killed?

Another stupid question due to Pro- Palestinian ignorance. Jews are VERBOTEN in Saudi Arabia. Is that racist? According to the Pro- Palestinian mentality.... Naaaaaa

Arabs aren't occupying Israeli cities, blockading Israeli ports, violating Israeli airspace with manned and unmanned aircraft, and Arabs are not currently murdering, maiming, incarcerating, and displacing tens of thousands of Israeli children. The fact that Saudi Arabia is a racist, misogynistic, theocratic hell-hole says absolutely nothing about the morality of the Jewish occupation of Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You have to read the entire, Plenary Meeting submission, to include the British Mandate Termination and the Israeli Application.

Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?

(ANSWER)

For your convenience, I have linked the sub-link of the Application. Please note Subsection F of Part I, and Part II in Boundaries - Subjection B. (A: Arab State, B: Jewish State, C: The City of Jerusalem)

It is important to note all of these in order to get a complete 1948 picture.

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947

(COMMENT)

It is a matter of record that the UN General Assembly adopted this partition under Resolution 181, which essentially ratified the British Proposal and set the original boundaries for Israel; which we refer to today as the 1948 Boundaries.

I sincerely apologize for not being clear. I made the assumption that when citing the UN Acceptance that it would be understood that the "Application" and "British Recommendation," which where annexes to the Plenary Meeting record, where included.

The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above. You actually cannot hold a seat in the General Assembly if they don't know where your country is located. They just don't do business that way.

Most Respectfully,
R

The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above.

Well, no it isn't. UN General Assembly resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation for the Security Council to implement the partition of Palestine. The Security Council did not implement the partition.

There was good reason for the Security Council to reject the partition plan. Implementing the plan without the consent of the Palestinians would have been a violation of the Palestinian's rights under international law and a violation of the UN Charter.

The basic right to self determination without external interference as enshrined in international law is the hinge pin for many other international laws. Palestine has been under the boot of external interference since the demise of the Ottoman empire. Violations of their rights do not negate those rights.

You actually cannot hold a seat in the General Assembly if they don't know where your country is located. They just don't do business that way.

That is true with the exception of Israel. One of the requirements of a legitimate state is a defined territory. When I stated that "Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory" it was not just an opinion. Since Israel has no defined territory, the UN uses the 1949 armistice agreement lines do define Israel's territory. This is a curious position for the UN to take since the 1949 UN armistice agreements specifically state that those lines are not to be considered political or territorial borders.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is where you and I agree on some very critical points. In another thread:

artfulcodger,

I mention that I believe that the Palestinians (some, not all) have grounds for a civil cause of action. And this, has a direct bearing on the dispute. I agree that UN Res 181, as an authoritative document, is defective.

The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above.

Well, no it isn't. UN General Assembly resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation for the Security Council to implement the partition of Palestine. The Security Council did not implement the partition.

(COMMENT)

Yes, agreed. You asked about the territory. And the Application, which was accepted, for a seat at the table, were the boundaries used. But, as you so (very) rightly observe, the question is not settled. The war is not truly over. The Armistice, in effect, granted a stay of execution.

There was good reason for the Security Council to reject the partition plan. Implementing the plan without the consent of the Palestinians would have been a violation of the Palestinian's rights under international law and a violation of the UN Charter.

The basic right to self determination without external interference as enshrined in international law is the hinge pin for many other international laws. Palestine has been under the boot of external interference since the demise of the Ottoman empire. Violations of their rights do not negate those rights.

You actually cannot hold a seat in the General Assembly if they don't know where your country is located. They just don't do business that way.

That is true with the exception of Israel. One of the requirements of a legitimate state is a defined territory. When I stated that "Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory" it was not just an opinion. Since Israel has no defined territory, the UN uses the 1949 armistice agreement lines do define Israel's territory. This is a curious position for the UN to take since the 1949 UN armistice agreements specifically state that those lines are not to be considered political or territorial borders.

(COMMENT)

When participants to these discussion talk, the exchange generally centers around who's fault it is: "THEM" versus "US;" more accurately - the "Israelis" versus "Arabs (Palestinians)." I tend to think this notion is flawed. It is not eithers fault, but the both contribute to the continued aggravation of the conditions, and have (together) probably made it an unsolvable equation.

I think that the International Community (at the time)(in particularly the British and French), the reigning Arab Leadership, and the United States (as the major world power in the west) bare the lion's share of the responsibility for the dispute, the actions and the conditions that set the inevitability of the war --- and the follow-on 50 years of conflict. Collectively, these players made a huge series of mistakes that they have not been able to go back and correct, causing the bloodletting (a regional cascade failure).

• The US encouraged the Jewish Settlers to take the bold action of declaring independence.
• The French basically pulled away and gave into the "Ostrich Effect." (Head in the sand.)
• The British did the old "Pontius Pilate" trick and washed their hands of it. Knowing that as the last boot left, a war would start. They where not happy with the Israelis and considered all the major Jewish Leaders as Terrorists (with some justification). Let the decision be decided in battle. They expected a decisive defeat.
• The British & French - together - as soulmates of colonial powers - didn't handle the former Ottoman Empire in the best interest of the indigenous populations and were hesitant of relinquishing control.
• The International Community just played the role of bean counter (who has what) but was at a loss for developing a solution. And no one in the community of nations really acted to intervene and break-up the fight when it started.

At the time, the war in Europe had just ended. The "Cold War" was just starting, and the nations most able to contribute to a solution were tired. There were bigger fish to fry, and no one really wanted to engage in another foreign war. Many thought that if they just ignored the problem, the Israelis and the Palestinians would tire of fighting and come to an equitable solution all on their own. (Boy, what a mistake that was!)

You mentioned the "Right of Self Determination." While US foreign Policy gives lip service to that notion, it is not a corner stone philosophy. If you are a country of interest to the US, then you only have the "Right of Self Determination" if - and only if, your choice is in the best interest of the US. That has been the stance of the US since the 1950s. Otherwise you fall prey to US intervention for any number of reasons. The US hegemony in the Middle East and Persian Gulf is becoming unsustainable. It will eventually collapse. It has all but receded to Bahrain and Kuwait.

The situation has been allowed to progress and fester for so long, no one really sees a viable solution to the Arab-Israeli dispute. While the flare-ups and periodic outbreaks of hostilities can be attributed to one side or the other today, the root cause is not of their making. The conditions for conflict between the Jews and the Palestinians (really one and the same) were set by external forces beyond their control. They were pawns. And given the circumstances, probably could not have happened any other way.

In my discussions with "artfulcodger" in another thread, it is easy for me to see the conflict, one side - against another, and the desperate attempt to rationalize the actions and outcomes. But the case of the Arab-Israeli Conflict is an example in which complex diplomatic actions and unpredictable results occur in an irrational way; generating a sequence of hostile events that we are unable to bring under control.

Most Respectfully,
R