What is Zionism?

[rylah]

Tell me, does US tax the Cherokee an extra tax for being a Cherokee?
Does the US ban Cherokees from visiting the places of their heritage?
Do US, Canada and Mexico citizens target and massacre the Cherokee people today? Is there "anti-Cherokeeism" in the US?

Anyway You answer, I would support the Cherokee in their demands for the right of self determination (if they decide so), just like I'd support the Kurds, Yazidis and other indigenous people.
However the opportunities and the nature of liberty in the US, are nowhere to be compared to the Ottoman Empire and Arab Muslim rule. The condition of the Jews in Palestine under Ottoman Empire was dire, worse than in any Arab country. On the other hand the US is not Switzerland, but it still is looked upon as a land of opportunities. And rightfully so, because Americans do have a lot of available to them for a price so small most can't imagine to pay. Europeans too. You work less for more, much more than most of the world. The US is a great place for talent and effort.
Palestine was not such a place under the Ottomans, maybe for the Arabs, not the Jews.

Um, okay, you did hear about the "Trail of Tears", right?

Here's the thing. Cherokees don't use the Trail of Tears in order to rationalize every stupid thing they do. If only the Zionists could learn to start a conversation without "but, but, but... Hitler!"

Strawman, and another strawman. Neither of them do, and I mentioned it nowhere.
Both people weren't created by the tragedy that was inflicted on them, but existed before that.
Zionism started way before the recent tragedy in Europe.

 

[JoeB131]

So you don't mind the oppression of the Cherokee people but get all upset about the oppression of the Palestinian people? Huh. Why is that?

Can't get worked up about something that happened 200 years ago.

I'm also not that upset about the Salem Witch Trial.

 

[JoeB131]

Strawman, and another strawman. Neither of them do, and I mentioned it nowhere.
Both people weren't created by the tragedy that was inflicted on them, but existed before that.
Zionism started way before the recent tragedy in Europe.

But that's the point. The Jews of Europe weren't too keen on going back to Palestine before Hitler started turning them into lampshades and bars of soap.

They were perfectly comfortable in Europe and weren't going to Palestine no matter how many incentives the British offered them to be Proxy Colonists.

Now you can't have a discussion about Israel without someone saying, "But, but, but... Hitler."

 

[Sixties Fan]

Strawman, and another strawman. Neither of them do, and I mentioned it nowhere.
Both people weren't created by the tragedy that was inflicted on them, but existed before that.
Zionism started way before the recent tragedy in Europe.

But that's the point. The Jews of Europe weren't too keen on going back to Palestine before Hitler started turning them into lampshades and bars of soap.

They were perfectly comfortable in Europe and weren't going to Palestine no matter how many incentives the British offered them to be Proxy Colonists.

Now you can't have a discussion about Israel without someone saying, "But, but, but... Hitler."

You are dreaming.

The Jews who went to Europe and then returned to their homeland had become aware, again, that Europe was never going to be friendly to Jews and treat them as equals. That was in the early 1800 after the Renaissance .

There were numbers upon numbers of Jews who had lived in Europe who had already moved back to their homeland before the Zionist Congress took place, and the vast immigration of Jews back to their homeland began.

Many more migrated back to their homeland, long before 1939.

One cannot be "comfortable" on any land where the governments and Christian churches can easily oppress and deny jobs and equal rights to a people.

Jews cannot be "Proxy colonialists" because they are the indigenous people of Palestine with every right to return to their ancient homeland. No permission necessary.

The British, once the Arabs started shooting and causing riots, walked away from allowing the Jews to immigrate, even returning ships back to Europe.
All because the non indigenous Muslims could not stand the idea that Jews should ever get any sovereignty over any land once conquered by Islam.


But, but, but.....it has never been about Hitler. He happened much later, way after Herzl and others decided that there was only one solution for Jews to be treated as humans. On their own traditional ancestral homeland.
And it is the only place they chose to go back to, rejecting offers of any other places on the planet, which probably belonged to some indigenous people or another.

"They were perfectly comfortable...." what a fantastic joke !!

 

[JoeB131]

You are dreaming.

The Jews who went to Europe and then returned to their homeland had become aware, again, that Europe was never going to be friendly to Jews and treat them as equals. That was in the early 1800 after the Renaissance .

There were numbers upon numbers of Jews who had lived in Europe who had already moved back to their homeland before the Zionist Congress took place, and the vast immigration of Jews back to their homeland began.

Many more migrated back to their homeland, long before 1939.

Actually, by 1890, there were only 43,000 Jews in Palestine. So, um, no, they weren't too keen on the idea.

Jews cannot be "Proxy colonialists" because they are the indigenous people of Palestine with every right to return to their ancient homeland. No permission necessary.

No, they aren't. They j ust happen to share a bastardized version of the religion with the people who were there 2000 years ago. The Jews of Europe have no more claim to be the real Jews than the Jews of Ethiopia.

He happened much later, way after Herzl and others decided that there was only one solution for Jews to be treated as humans. On their own traditional ancestral homeland.

By stealing it from the people who were already there and treating them the way the Nazis treated them.

Zionists are like abused children who've gotten big enough to beat up on someone else.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You are dreaming.

The Jews who went to Europe and then returned to their homeland had become aware, again, that Europe was never going to be friendly to Jews and treat them as equals. That was in the early 1800 after the Renaissance .

There were numbers upon numbers of Jews who had lived in Europe who had already moved back to their homeland before the Zionist Congress took place, and the vast immigration of Jews back to their homeland began.

Many more migrated back to their homeland, long before 1939.

Actually, by 1890, there were only 43,000 Jews in Palestine. So, um, no, they weren't too keen on the idea.

Jews cannot be "Proxy colonialists" because they are the indigenous people of Palestine with every right to return to their ancient homeland. No permission necessary.

No, they aren't. They j ust happen to share a bastardized version of the religion with the people who were there 2000 years ago. The Jews of Europe have no more claim to be the real Jews than the Jews of Ethiopia.

He happened much later, way after Herzl and others decided that there was only one solution for Jews to be treated as humans. On their own traditional ancestral homeland.

By stealing it from the people who were already there and treating them the way the Nazis treated them.

Zionists are like abused children who've gotten big enough to beat up on someone else.

Uhm, whether there were 43,000 Jews on their ancient homeland, or only one, continues to be none of any non Jews, anymore than how many First Nations still reside on their ancient lands to be considered theirs to begin with.

You are stuck on numbers, and not the rights of any indigenous people to have their land considered to be theirs.

You know nothing about Judaism to be calling anything "bastardized". All you keep attempting to do is delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, AND their indigenous religion and culture to fulfill your dream of having Jews lose their sovereignty over their ancient homeland once again.

Clearly you have not only not been to Israel, but have never spoken to the 20% non Jewish population of Israel, much less spoken to the people in areas A or B of Judea and Samaria.

It is despicable that you chose to equate the Jews who suffered the greatest loss of their population to the Nazis, WITH the Nazis.

How childish of you to keep repeating garbage you read on some Jew haters site, or heard it from the pulpit at your church.
Jews are the bully, and the invading murdering Arabs are the victims.

Would you like to tell me who some of the First Nations recovered some of their ancient lands in the USA and by which means? Was it not legally?

Because that is exactly how the Jews recovered some of their ancient land.
78% given illegally by the British to ONE Arab clan from Arabia (who had only been there since WWI, after being kicked out by ANOTHER Arab Clan).

By all means, ALL the Arabs who illegally immigrated to Palestine from 1920 to 1948 have more rights to the land of the Jews than the Jews themselves.

Because Joe B says so.

 

[JoeB131]

You know nothing about Judaism to be calling anything "bastardized". All you keep attempting to do is delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, AND their indigenous religion and culture to fulfill your dream of having Jews lose their sovereignty over their ancient homeland once again.

They lost their sovereignty when the Romans got sick of their shit and dispersed them.

Sorry, you don't get to claim something 2000 year later because you happen to belong to the same religion.

Clearly you have not only not been to Israel, but have never spoken to the 20% non Jewish population of Israel, much less spoken to the people in areas A or B of Judea and Samaria.

It is despicable that you chose to equate the Jews who suffered the greatest loss of their population to the Nazis, WITH the Nazis.

No, I have no desire to go to an apartheid state.

What's despicable is that after all their whining about what the Nazis did to them, the Jews are doing the same thing to the Palestinians.

Because that is exactly how the Jews recovered some of their ancient land.
78% given illegally by the British to ONE Arab clan from Arabia (who had only been there since WWI, after being kicked out by ANOTHER Arab Clan).

Given the fact those Arabs fought for the British against the Ottomans, while the Jews did, well, not all that much, they should have gotten 100% of that land. But the British are the masters of fucking up everything.

By all means, ALL the Arabs who illegally immigrated to Palestine from 1920 to 1948 have more rights to the land of the Jews than the Jews themselves.

Except it isn't the 'Land of the Jews" and hadn't been for 1800 years.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You know nothing about Judaism to be calling anything "bastardized". All you keep attempting to do is delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, AND their indigenous religion and culture to fulfill your dream of having Jews lose their sovereignty over their ancient homeland once again.

They lost their sovereignty when the Romans got sick of their shit and dispersed them.

Sorry, you don't get to claim something 2000 year later because you happen to belong to the same religion.

Clearly you have not only not been to Israel, but have never spoken to the 20% non Jewish population of Israel, much less spoken to the people in areas A or B of Judea and Samaria.

It is despicable that you chose to equate the Jews who suffered the greatest loss of their population to the Nazis, WITH the Nazis.

No, I have no desire to go to an apartheid state.

What's despicable is that after all their whining about what the Nazis did to them, the Jews are doing the same thing to the Palestinians.

Because that is exactly how the Jews recovered some of their ancient land.
78% given illegally by the British to ONE Arab clan from Arabia (who had only been there since WWI, after being kicked out by ANOTHER Arab Clan).

Given the fact those Arabs fought for the British against the Ottomans, while the Jews did, well, not all that much, they should have gotten 100% of that land. But the British are the masters of fucking up everything.

By all means, ALL the Arabs who illegally immigrated to Palestine from 1920 to 1948 have more rights to the land of the Jews than the Jews themselves.

Except it isn't the 'Land of the Jews" and hadn't been for 1800 years.

You, a total nobody, does not get to tell the indigenous people of the world if they can ever regain sovereignty over the land stolen from them again and again.

There is not one document or historian before 1948 who did not call that land "The land of the Jews".

The Quran itself, the master of what is and is not for all Muslims, says that the land belongs to the Jews.

So you, Mr. Nobody, with your worthless Jew hating ideas, truly has no say if the Apaches, Tibetans, Kurds, Assyrians, Jews, etc are till the indigenous and legitimate owners of their ancient lands or not, just because they did not have "sovereignty" over that land over any period of time.

Do not worry, Israel is very happy that a loser like you will not want to come to their country only for you to pass on your vile lies about Jews and Israel to nobody who does not want to hear and get to know how much of a Jew hater you are.
There are plenty of those already living and visiting Israel.

But, most of those living in Israel, especially non Jews, do not think, and much less behave as if they are in an Apartheid country, as you insist in thinking that Israel is.

You do not go to Israel. Israel wins.
You do not meet all the non Jews who love Israel. Israel wins.
You do not educate yourself about the indigenous rights of the Jewish people to any part of their ancient homeland. Israel wins.

It is a win, win, win, win situation for Jews and Israel.

Because they have no intention of being treated like nothing, ever again.

Christian, Muslim, Atheist, who cares.

You, who hate Jews and want to see Israel destroyed are nothing but BIG FAT LOSERS !!!!!

 

[Shusha]

They lost their sovereignty when the Romans got sick of their shit and dispersed them.

If that is your objective criteria for loss of sovereignty -- then the Arabs lost sovereignty of the territory when the Jewish people got sick of their shit and dispersed them. End of story. Unless you have different rules for Jews.

What's despicable is that after all their whining about what the Nazis did to them, the Jews are doing the same thing to the Palestinians.

Comparing the intentional, deliberate, systematic genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of the Nazis to Israel is abhorrent and blatant antisemitism. No objective person would find an equivalence there. You are just a run-of-the-mill antisemite intent on seeing Jewish people as evil.

That's why the Jewish people NEED a nation of their own. To protect ourselves against people like you. Am Yisrael Chai.

 

[rylah]

They were perfectly comfortable in Europe and weren't going to Palestine no matter how many incentives the British offered them to be Proxy Colonists.

"perfectly comfortable in Europe"... I could fill a 100 threads with European masochism towards Jews.
Was the white paper an incentive? Or the Ottoman ban on settlement in Palestine?

Now you can't have a discussion about Israel without someone saying, "But, but, but... Hitler."

Well You keep saying "Hitler this , Hitler that"...Jews have much more to Israel, than this piece of Amalek.

 

[rylah]

But that's the point. The Jews of Europe weren't too keen on going back to Palestine before Hitler started turning them into lampshades and bars of soap.

You're right and wrong at the same time.
Jews in Europe knew well about the Arab pogroms and other wars in Ottoman Palestine.
The condition of Jews in Palestine was worse than in any Arab country.
You're wrong because for the average Jew to go to Palestine meant a certain bankruptcy and certain life danger due to travel through different Empires. That's why they mainly went to be buried there.
European govt's banned Jews who tried to leave to Palestine, on more than one occasion.

Zionism was a natural transformation of the governing tools, that guarded the Jewish community in Palestine throughout the centuries. Into a full working govt. based on strong established connections between Jewish communities in Arabia, Africa, Europe, America AND to the Jewish community in Palestine under the Ottoman rule.

 

[JoeB131]

Do not worry, Israel is very happy that a loser like you will not want to come to their country only for you to pass on your vile lies about Jews and Israel to nobody who does not want to hear and get to know how much of a Jew hater you are.
There are plenty of those already living and visiting Israel.

actually, most progressive liberal Jews are kind of embarrassed by the Zionist Entity. It's like Crazy Uncle Moshe who screams at your goyim friends about Hitler at your Bat-Mitzvah.

The main supporters of the Zionist entity today are batshit crazy Fundamentalist Christians who want Israel to be there so Jesus can come back and destroy the world.

Seriously, fuck all these religious nuts.

Comparing the intentional, deliberate, systematic genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of the Nazis to Israel is abhorrent and blatant antisemitism. No objective person would find an equivalence there. You are just a run-of-the-mill antisemite intent on seeing Jewish people as evil.

That's why the Jewish people NEED a nation of their own. To protect ourselves against people like you. Am Yisrael Chai.

Or you can all stop being assholes everywhere you go. That would work, too.

 

[JoeB131]

Well You keep saying "Hitler this , Hitler that"...Jews have much more to Israel, than this piece of Amalek.

Amalek? Aren't those the folks your Loving Sky Pixie demanded be massacred down to the last child?

You know, because he's such a loving God.

 

[hadit]

It's amazing how the most persecuted minority in world history that didn't even have a home land for thousands of years manages to run the entire world. It's almost as if there's a supernatural power behind them out something.


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[JoeB131]

It's amazing how the most persecuted minority in world history that didn't even have a home land for thousands of years manages to run the entire world. It's almost as if there's a supernatural power behind them out something.

Yeah, it's called "Money".

But they've only managed to buy the government in THIS country.

 

[Hollie]

It's amazing how the most persecuted minority in world history that didn't even have a home land for thousands of years manages to run the entire world. It's almost as if there's a supernatural power behind them out something.

Yeah, it's called "Money".

But they've only managed to buy the government in THIS country.

You will find a wider audience for your conspiracy theories in the thread dedicated for those.

 

[hadit]

It's amazing how the most persecuted minority in world history that didn't even have a home land for thousands of years manages to run the entire world. It's almost as if there's a supernatural power behind them out something.

Yeah, it's called "Money".

But they've only managed to buy the government in THIS country.

And again, a severely persecuted minority with no homeland for thousands of years amasses tremendous wealth, enough to buy the entire US government. It's almost as if there's a supernatural power behind them or something.


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