What Is Wrong With Florida?

[jillian]

I was referring to the FL thing where you have a conspiracy to disenfranchise voters starting with the Governor's office. While you may call it "just politics" it requires a cast of thousands to carry it out -- the same inherent flaw in all mass-scale conspiracy theories. In which case, there'd have been mass squealing following shortly thereafter.

Do I think politicians are above reproach? Hardly. But most aren't suicidal and THAT is exactly what the outcome of such a massive effort to defraud would amount to.

As far as the voting machines go, I don't question that as I know nothing about it.

Do you really think Jeb didn't do everything possible to make sure his brother got elected -- including having his secretary of state (Baby Bush's local campaign manager) make sure that black voters had a harder time getting to the polls?

There was "squealing"... the right said we were "whining" and Gore decided it was better for the country to go down without a fight. Might have been the right decision from a global perspective. Doesn't mean that there wasn't anything to complain about. Don't you remember the black congressional dems refusing to certify the results?

It's only suicidal if someone is willing to do something about it. When you have the executive, the courts and congress, no one's doing nuffin. And the Florida high court got overruled by Bush v. Gore.

 

[mattskramer]

Do you really think Jeb didn't do everything possible to make sure his brother got elected -- including having his secretary of state (Baby Bush's local campaign manager) make sure that black voters had a harder time getting to the polls?

There was "squealing"... the right said we were "whining" and Gore decided it was better for the country to go down without a fight. Might have been the right decision from a global perspective. Doesn't mean that there wasn't anything to complain about. Don't you remember the black congressional dems refusing to certify the results?

It's only suicidal if someone is willing to do something about it. When you have the executive, the courts and congress, no one's doing nuffin. And the Florida high court got overruled by Bush v. Gore.

I like your liberalism but I disagree with you on the Florida vote for 2000. People who intend to vote must plan ahead, have proper identification. Learn where to vote and when to vote. Once at the voting place, they must pay close attention and follow instructions. It is as simple as that.

 

[jillian]

I like your liberalism but I disagree with you on the Florida vote for 2000. People who intend to vote must plan ahead, have proper identification. Learn where to vote and when to vote. Once at the voting place, they must pay close attention and follow instructions. It is as simple as that.

That isn't the issue. It wasn't about I.D. It was about finding out when they got to their voting places that they were on the "felons" list even though they weren't felons.

Not exactly something that can be anticipted.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Funny thing, but the company that Jebby had create the criminal list in 2000 that excluded 94,000 Floridians from voting just happened to not look up Hispanic names.

"TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Florida Gov. Jeb Bush ignored advice to throw out a flawed felon voter list before it went out to county election offices despite warnings from state officials, according to a published report Saturday.

In a May 4 e-mail obtained by the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Florida Department of Law Enforcement computer expert Jeff Long told his boss that a Department of State computer expert had told him “that yesterday they recommended to the Gov that they ’pull the plug”’ on the voter database.

The e-mail said state election officials “weren’t comfortable with the felon matching program they’ve got,” but added, “The Gov rejected their suggestion to pull the plug, so they’re ’going live’ with it this weekend.”

"TAMPA -- Kelvin King was turned away from the polls here in November when records showed that he was ineligible to vote as a convicted felon. County election officials learned days later that King's civil rights had been restored eight months earlier.

Sandylynn Williams had voted in every election since she was 18. But this time, election officials confused her with her sister -- a felon who had once used Williams's name -- and refused to let her vote.

"They sent me a letter of apology, and I just laughed," recalled Williams, 34, who said she had planned to vote for Democratic nominee Al Gore. "I was cheated out of voting."


After it was too late for these people to vote, they found out the majority of names should not have been on the list. Do I think this was intentional? Duh?

They tried this again in 2004, but it came to light before they could once more screw US.

 

[mattskramer]

That isn't the issue. It wasn't about I.D. It was about finding out when they got to their voting places that they were on the "felons" list even though they weren't felons.

Not exactly something that can be anticipted.

Okay. Well, yeah. That is wrong.

 

[jillian]

Okay. Well, yeah. That is wrong.

Kind of my feeling on the subject.

 

[pegwinn]

The judge is right. No where in the Constitution does it require this information in order to vote. This is because SS numbers, and photo IDs are things manufactured as our government grew and wanted control of the masses. And not for the better.

Florida disenfranchised thousands of voters in the 2000 and 2004 elections with loopholes to keep blacks and hispanics from voting.

Not all blacks are criminals and not all hispanics are illegal immigrants. It is that racist mindset that the GOP and Jeb Bush counted on to enforce these archaic and Klanesque laws.

First and foremost, there is no constitutional right to vote. So, why a federal judge is involved merely demonstrates that he is ill-informed.

Next, yelling "racist" is simply a blanket denial IOT not have to address the question of how to ensure a fair election.

One solution is simple, eliminate secret ballots.

 

[Psychoblues]

So you agree with the everchanging multistep process as promoted by republicans for voting?

I like your liberalism but I disagree with you on the Florida vote for 2000. People who intend to vote must plan ahead, have proper identification. Learn where to vote and when to vote. Once at the voting place, they must pay close attention and follow instructions. It is as simple as that.

Why can't Americans just "simply" (as you say) vote?

 

[Gunny]

Do you really think Jeb didn't do everything possible to make sure his brother got elected -- including having his secretary of state (Baby Bush's local campaign manager) make sure that black voters had a harder time getting to the polls?

There was "squealing"... the right said we were "whining" and Gore decided it was better for the country to go down without a fight. Might have been the right decision from a global perspective. Doesn't mean that there wasn't anything to complain about. Don't you remember the black congressional dems refusing to certify the results?

It's only suicidal if someone is willing to do something about it. When you have the executive, the courts and congress, no one's doing nuffin. And the Florida high court got overruled by Bush v. Gore.

There's no real evidence to support the accusation. No, I don't believe Bush and/or the FL AG tried to disenfranchise only black voters.

I must've missed where Gore decided it was best for the country to go down without a fight. What I saw was his trying to claim each and every dent, mark, scratch, fold and/or perforation that was nto clearly and indisputably a vote for Bush as a vote for him.

He also tried to have late votes from a known Dem stronghold county included while whining his ass off about late military write-ins from Duval county because he KNEW who would take the majority of those.

So in actuality, it was Gore's REFUSAL to go down with grace that created the controversy.

Want to say the FLorida voting process is administratively imperfect? I'll agree with THAT. But I think attempting to attach criminality to imperfection and/or bureaucratic BS simply because you don't like the outcome is just wrong.

 

[Gunny]

Funny thing, but the company that Jebby had create the criminal list in 2000 that excluded 94,000 Floridians from voting just happened to not look up Hispanic names.

"TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Florida Gov. Jeb Bush ignored advice to throw out a flawed felon voter list before it went out to county election offices despite warnings from state officials, according to a published report Saturday.

In a May 4 e-mail obtained by the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Florida Department of Law Enforcement computer expert Jeff Long told his boss that a Department of State computer expert had told him “that yesterday they recommended to the Gov that they ’pull the plug”’ on the voter database.

The e-mail said state election officials “weren’t comfortable with the felon matching program they’ve got,” but added, “The Gov rejected their suggestion to pull the plug, so they’re ’going live’ with it this weekend.”

"TAMPA -- Kelvin King was turned away from the polls here in November when records showed that he was ineligible to vote as a convicted felon. County election officials learned days later that King's civil rights had been restored eight months earlier.

Sandylynn Williams had voted in every election since she was 18. But this time, election officials confused her with her sister -- a felon who had once used Williams's name -- and refused to let her vote.

"They sent me a letter of apology, and I just laughed," recalled Williams, 34, who said she had planned to vote for Democratic nominee Al Gore. "I was cheated out of voting."


After it was too late for these people to vote, they found out the majority of names should not have been on the list. Do I think this was intentional? Duh?

They tried this again in 2004, but it came to light before they could once more screw US.

What are obviously administrative/bureaucratic screwups don't add up to "intentional."

What i never see are the numbers on how many Republicans/independents got screwed out of their votes for the same administrative nonsense.

Seems to me instead of all the name-calling each and every time things don't go their way, people should do what they can to minimize the flaws to what will NEVER be an absolutely perfect system.

 

[jillian]

There's no real evidence to support the accusation. No, I don't believe Bush and/or the FL AG tried to disenfranchise only black voters.

I don't think I said only... they didn't like Palm Beach County either.

I must've missed where Gore decided it was best for the country to go down without a fight. What I saw was his trying to claim each and every dent, mark, scratch, fold and/or perforation that was nto clearly and indisputably a vote for Bush as a vote for him

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... with Tom DE-LAY'S staffers outside the dooor where they were counting pretending they were outraged citizens. Even Pat Buchanan thought the vote smelled.

And since you missed it: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0012/13/bn.05.html

He also tried to have late votes from a known Dem stronghold county included while whining his ass off about late military write-ins from Duval county because he KNEW who would take the majority of those.

Goes back to what I said about how elections work.

So in actuality, it was Gore's REFUSAL to go down with grace that created the controversy.

Right...he should have shut up while Bush and his buddies had the Supreme Court appoint him.

Wanna talk about unethical... Scalia sitting on the bench deciding Bush v Gore for his hunting buddy.

Want to talk perverse? A Supreme Court decision that specifically applies only the facts before it and has no precedential value.

Want to say the FLorida voting process is administratively imperfect? I'll agree with THAT. But I think attempting to attach criminality to imperfection and/or bureaucratic BS simply because you don't like the outcome is just wrong.

It's not the outcome...it was the way it was done. And you don't want to see what was done wrong because you DO like the outcome. So there ya go.

 

[Gunny]

I don't think I said only... they didn't like Palm Beach County either.



Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... with Tom DE-LAY'S staffers outside the dooor where they were counting pretending they were outraged citizens. Even Pat Buchanan thought the vote smelled.

And since you missed it: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0012/13/bn.05.html



Goes back to what I said about how elections work.



Right...he should have shut up while Bush and his buddies had the Supreme Court appoint him.

Wanna talk about unethical... Scalia sitting on the bench deciding Bush v Gore for his hunting buddy.

Want to talk perverse? A Supreme Court decision that specifically applies only the facts before it and has no precedential value.



It's not the outcome...it was the way it was done. And you don't want to see what was done wrong because you DO like the outcome. So there ya go.

Ummm ... no? "The way it was done" ... nothing intentional can be proven, just accusations made. There is no "the way it was done" except what can be proven.

I don't see what YOU see as wrong the way you see it because I can differentiate between an intentional act to defraud and bureaucratic ineptness whereas your argument is based SOLELY on the fact that you didn't like the outcome. SO there YOU go.

It has nothing to do with what I prefer as an outcome. In the following midterm election here, a Republican tried to pull a "Gore" and hold up the results and I called bullshit on that one too.

 

[Psychoblues]

These soft crimes, many times called "white" crimes, are difficut to prove in an American courtroom. Have you ever read anything by Greg Palast? He is no favorite to either party but he has some interesting things to say about American vote counting.