Bull Ring What is “within reason” in relation to gun ownership: Saki & Dhunt

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by sakinago, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Daryl Hunt
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    Daryl Hunt Gold Member

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    hanging drywall? Did you hate it that much that you just couldn't shoot it? :abgg2q.jpg:
     
  2. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”
     
  3. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    Took me a second, but I finally got it, nice.
     
  4. Daryl Hunt
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    Daryl Hunt Gold Member

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    You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

    You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

    And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.
     
  5. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

    Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

    Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.
     
  6. Daryl Hunt
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    Daryl Hunt Gold Member

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    You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

    The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

    As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  7. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    I am linking universal background checks with gun registration because universal background checks are 100% unenforceable laws without gun registration. You’re asking all of society to participate in an honor system with universal background checks. Law abiding citizens will, criminals will not. What is the point of asking criminals to jeopardize their enterprise when they don’t have too? There is no hurdle for them to jump over that they are not already jumping over. That’s the main question with universal background checks.
     
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  8. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    I didn’t make it a black and white issue. It’s a consequence I am pointing out of ineffective background checks. It screws over unlucky people through no fault of their own, and a very large majority of those people screwed over just happen to be black.

    So you’ve temporarily placed a roadblock for the stupid enough 2% of people who have not passed background checks. That is not an effective law. That’s a very counter-effective law. It screws over 98% if the people it enforced on.

    Laws should have a good level of efficacy should they not? If they do not, and instead screw over innocent people. They are not good policy. Unless you carry an “the ends justify the means” mentality. If that’s the case, then we are philosophically opposed. What’s the point of universal background checks when at least 99% of the target population won’t follow it? You could get into the argument of, “if that 1% saves lives” , but we both know that those who advocate for gun control will not be satisfied with a mere 1%. You personally may not be in that category of not being satisfied, but I think it’s fair to say you’d represent a small minority.
     
  9. Daryl Hunt
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    Daryl Hunt Gold Member

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    There you go again. Background checks are not linked to Gun registration. You keep linking the two together. Again, the background checks don't even have the mention of the gun on the form. It's strictly the public background check on the buyer. And as it stands now, if a person wants to backdoor the system, they just go ahead and do it. Since the weapon isn't tracked after the legit retail sale, it can easily land in some really stupid criminals hands.

    Then you go off on the 1 or 2 percent that can't pass a background check. If they have been misidentified, there are avenues to fix that. If they are a convicted felon for something not violent, get your state law changed. If they have been convicted or on trial for a violent crime, I don't want them to walk into a gun show and purchase a gun. If they are under shrink care for almost beating their wife and kids to death, this is not one I want to own a gun so he can easily finish the job. Gun checking stops stupid people from getting guns that do stupid things with them. Smart people know someone with guns out the back of a buick. Stupid people find Feds selling guns out of the back of a buick.

    We can't stop all crime nor arrest all criminals. We fix what we can when we can where we can. If it means that you have to do a background check for that new 9mm, the next time that liquor store is not held up at gun point by an inept criminal should thank you.

    BTW, in Colorado, ALL gun sales, the person has to go through a background check. No exceptions. And yes, I know of at least one or two people that I can buy a handgun from that will sell it without a background check. I won't buy from them because that would be breaking the law. They seem to not be able to sell their handguns these days. Of course, sooner or later, someone is going to tip off the authorities and it's bye bye due to the Buy Buy for them.
     
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  10. Daryl Hunt
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    Daryl Hunt Gold Member

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    It is enforceable. Get caught selling that way or buying that way and it's a class 4 felony. And you lose your gun rights for life after a brief visit to the pokey. Very few sales are made that way in this state. And fewer each year.
     

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