What is stigma?

[jaydedjen110]

http://www.mentalhealth.wa.gov.au/mental_illness_and_health/mh_stigma.aspx

What is stigma?
Three out of four people with a mental illness report that they have experienced stigma. Stigma is a mark of disgrace that sets a person apart. When a person is labelled by their illness they are seen as part of a stereotyped group. Negative attitudes create prejudice which leads to negative actions and discrimination.

Stigma brings experiences and feelings of:

• shame
• blame
• hopelessness
• distress
• misrepresentation in the media
• reluctance to seek and/or accept necessary help

Families are also affected by stigma, leading to a lack of support. For mental health professionals, stigma means that they themselves are seen as abnormal, corrupt or evil, and psychiatric treatments are often viewed with suspicion and horror.

 

[Andylusion]

http://www.mentalhealth.wa.gov.au/mental_illness_and_health/mh_stigma.aspx

What is stigma?
Three out of four people with a mental illness report that they have experienced stigma. Stigma is a mark of disgrace that sets a person apart. When a person is labelled by their illness they are seen as part of a stereotyped group. Negative attitudes create prejudice which leads to negative actions and discrimination.

Stigma brings experiences and feelings of:

• shame
• blame
• hopelessness
• distress
• misrepresentation in the media
• reluctance to seek and/or accept necessary help

Families are also affected by stigma, leading to a lack of support. For mental health professionals, stigma means that they themselves are seen as abnormal, corrupt or evil, and psychiatric treatments are often viewed with suspicion and horror.

First off, the whole reason stereotypes exist, is because they are generally true.

Remember Madalyn Murray O'Hair? She hired that guy who couldn't get a job anywhere because he was an ex-con with a violent history? She didn't want to play into stereotypes, and hired this guy. Wasn't that nice of her? She's dead now, killed by the non-stereotypical ex-con she hired.

Not the brightest move.

If you hear that 5 women in the last week, were raped by mud-men from Alabama, and then you allow a desperate mud-man from Alabama to stay in your home with your wife and daughter alone.... because you don't want to play into a stereotype.... you are what is known as a incompetent moron.

I have been around two mentally ill... or psychotic people. Both times in a work place environment. Both times I feared for the safety of myself, and my co-workers.

And both times, the individuals became violent. So listen up sparky.... you want to put your life on the line to avoid a stereotype, and get your darwin-butt killed? Fine. But me, I got my eye out... and I'm right in doing so... and I have no regrets, and no shame in it.

Mental health professionals are looked down on, not because they try and help mental patients.... that's not the problem.

The problem is, they have a stunning lack of success.

The number of times people have an issue, and get it fixed, is very low. I was reading about how for just chronic depression, the success rate of treatment was just over 50%, but nearly 40% relapsed.

Now think about that.... how much money do you pay to see a mental health professional? Salary for these people is $86,000 to $120,000. Do tell.... what other profession can you have a 10% success rate... and get paid a six-figure income?

Would you hire an auto-mechanic, and pay him before hand to fix your car, with only a 10% chance of success?

Worse, that same article showed that getting a gym membership for $10 a month, and getting on an exercise, showed a higher rate of curing depression, with a lower relapse rate.

 

[Disir]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

 

[jaydedjen110]

Let me put it to you plainly:

The mental health system in America is in shambles.
The mental health system in America did not get the funding promised that was promised after Newtown and other mass shootings.
The mental health system in America does not have its funding protected by law. State budget shortfall – politicians take money from mental health, education, and programs for the most vulnerable citizens. The politicians can’t do away with the mental health system, but they keep it unstable.

The biggest mental health facilities in American are prisons.
People with mental illnesses do not do well in punitive authoritarian environments. Their symptoms intensify.
Jails and prisons are punitive authoritarian environments.
Law enforcement does not want more mentally ill prisoners in their custody.
Of the people shot by law enforcement in America, almost half of the fatalities have a mental illness.
The mentally ill are not seen as being people who contribute positively to society (stigma), so they are seen as not worth defending, so nothing changes.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

 

[Andylusion]

Let me put it to you plainly:

The mental health system in America is in shambles.
The mental health system in America did not get the funding promised that was promised after Newtown and other mass shootings.
The mental health system in America does not have its funding protected by law. State budget shortfall – politicians take money from mental health, education, and programs for the most vulnerable citizens. The politicians can’t do away with the mental health system, but they keep it unstable.

The biggest mental health facilities in American are prisons.
People with mental illnesses do not do well in punitive authoritarian environments. Their symptoms intensify.
Jails and prisons are punitive authoritarian environments.
Law enforcement does not want more mentally ill prisoners in their custody.
Of the people shot by law enforcement in America, almost half of the fatalities have a mental illness.
The mentally ill are not seen as being people who contribute positively to society (stigma), so they are seen as not worth defending, so nothing changes.

OF course you didn't get the funding promised.

Politicians are going to promise whatever they are required to promise, in order to dupe stupid people into voting for them.

The reality is, government doesn't have a magic endless supply of money. If you want mental health funding, then you have to pay the massive tax hikes required to pay for them.

You want endless government services? Great. You have to pay the price. Move to California, and live in a one room shack for $2,000 a month, and have 50% of your pay check confiscated by the state. And they'll pay for your mental health care.... provided the welfare people, the women's care people, the free children's care people, the eco-nut people, the subsidized water people, the green-energy people, the LGBT people, the all the rest, don't get the money first.

See this another problem. Every time one of you people show up and tell us "government should fund this".... there's a thousand others saying "well I want money for my thing too!".

That's why every every post on here by someone demanding government fund something, there's a thousand more groups in the country all demanding their thing is funded as well.

I never ends with you people. It's like an ideology of a 2-year-old, where all you do and stamp your feet, and scream "I want it!".

Well we don't have the money dude. That's all there is to it. Entire cities have going bankrupt. There are several states on the verge of bankrupt. The whole country now owes more money in debt, than it the entire country produces in gross domestic product. We produce roughly $17 Trillion in GDP, and we owe $19 Trillion in debt.

Do you have any idea what that means? It means the government could collect 100% of GDP for an entire YEAR, and we would still be in debt.

But we need to spend more? How long is that going to last before we end up like Greece? How is the free mental health care in Greece doing now that they bankrupted the entire country? That's what you want the US to end up like?

 

[waltky]

Read Keeping Secrets by Suzanne Sommers...

... especially the part about how her counselor...

... 'coached' her into breaking up her boyfriend's marriage...

... and 'helped' her feel good about herself...

... when she succeeded.

Also notice how she rationalized her father's alcoholism...

... as the cause of her adultery...

... yeah, they both start with the letter 'a'...

... but are entirely separate issues.

And they call that mental health???

 

[Disir]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

 

[Disir]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

Please provide evidence showing the reason they were closed down is because the private sector said they could do better?

See you claim that I am ignorant of history and the system, but you seem to know nothing yourself. Or at least, nothing you have said seems to fit with the reality said by people who know.

First the removal of people from state institutions, started before the 1980s.

The number of people institutionalized in California for example, peaked in 1959, at over 37,000 people. That number fell to 22,000 before Ronald Reagan ever became governor.

Contrary to your BS crap, it was the people involved in mental health care that demanded the changes.

Dr. Robert H. Felix, who was then director of the National Institute of Mental Health and a major figure in the shift to community centers, says now on reflection: ''Many of those patients who left the state hospitals never should have done so. We psychiatrists saw too much of the old snake pit, saw too many people who shouldn't have been there and we overreacted. The result is not what we intended, and perhaps we didn't ask the questions that should have been asked when developing a new concept, but psychiatrists are human, too, and we tried our damnedest.''​

Here's the difference between me and you. You made endless unsupported claims. I gave you facts.

But the damning evidence continues:

The original policy changes were backed by scores of national professional and philanthropic organizations and several hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics. The belief then was widespread that the same scientific researchers who had conjured up antibiotics and vaccines during the outburst of medical discovery in the 50's and 60's had also developed penicillins to cure psychoses and thus revolutionize the treatment of the mentally ill.
....
Finally, there was a growing economic and political liability faced by state legislators. Enormous amounts of tax revenues were being used to support the state mental hospitals, and the institutions themselves were increasingly thought of as ''snake pits'' or facilities that few people wanted.

One of the most influential groups in bringing about the new national policy was the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health, an independent body set up by Congress in 1955.​

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

So let's review.... shall we miss "ignorant in both the history and the system itself"?

The driving force the changed the system, was not some mythical "private sector said they could do it better".

Rather the driving force was the National Institute of Mental Health, scores of national professional, philanthropic organizations, hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics, and finally growing economic and political liability.

Government doesn't have magic money trees to pay for everything you want.

No private sector saying they'll do it better. No evil greedy CEOs in the mix. Ivy league professors, politicians, psychiatrists, and a Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health setup by the government itself.

Facts. Not your BS ideologically driven lies. Facts baby.

And by the way.... the state run mental hospitals were terrible. Much as they are today if you don't know. Why do you think they wrote that book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1962, which was a Broadway play in 1963, and a movie in 1975?

You think things are much different today? Read from people who have been in them.

The Truth about Many Psychiatric Hospitals

Many times, people are treated with disrespect and like animals. They are often neglected, abused, and don’t get the help they desperately need. Many times they are given medications for the sole purpose of getting them to be quiet and not give the staff trouble and to make their jobs easier.

Patients are left to fend for themselves, given nothing to do and many times are scared due to the behavior of other patients. If you look at the Calendar of Events, you would think that the place keeps the patients busy and offers a lot to them to help with their mental illness. However. those calenders are, in my opinion, to pass the requirements from the state or whoever approves funding and have never really seen them followed.
​

That's your tax dollars at work. Don't you feel better about paying your taxes? See this is why right-wingers are always cutting this crap. We work hard, and then see what are tax dollars are used for. A calendar of events that never happen, so that they meet a state requirement and get funding.



And let's not forget that awesome state run mental hospital, where they left a woman to die on the floor. All those state Union employees rushing to..... stand by the wall and look at her, and the another rushes..... to roll on a chair and look at her, and the rolls back.

Good job Disir. That is all you girl. You support that system. You champion state run help. You claim the private sector can't do better. So that right there is all you.
You own it girl.

at least be mature enough to own what you support.

 

[Disir]

I don't know what Western Australia has going on but in the US stigma is not the issue. Funding and access is the issue. There is no PC magic wand. The only successful aspect this little campaign has managed to produce is simply to whitewash it enough so the upper class can continue to pretend it does not exist and is not a problem. Do you know where they send their mentally ill relatives? To mental health hospitals in Europe.

The US needs to bring back life long care facilities because many mentally ill folks can not function in society. There are stages in dealing with many of them. First, they have to have access. Secondly, they have to accept they need the medication. Third, you have to find the right cocktail. Fourth, they have to accept they still need the medication. Fifth, you have to readdress the right cocktail because as they age the mental illness changes with them.

Life long care.

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

Please provide evidence showing the reason they were closed down is because the private sector said they could do better?

See you claim that I am ignorant of history and the system, but you seem to know nothing yourself. Or at least, nothing you have said seems to fit with the reality said by people who know.

First the removal of people from state institutions, started before the 1980s.

The number of people institutionalized in California for example, peaked in 1959, at over 37,000 people. That number fell to 22,000 before Ronald Reagan ever became governor.

Contrary to your BS crap, it was the people involved in mental health care that demanded the changes.

Dr. Robert H. Felix, who was then director of the National Institute of Mental Health and a major figure in the shift to community centers, says now on reflection: ''Many of those patients who left the state hospitals never should have done so. We psychiatrists saw too much of the old snake pit, saw too many people who shouldn't have been there and we overreacted. The result is not what we intended, and perhaps we didn't ask the questions that should have been asked when developing a new concept, but psychiatrists are human, too, and we tried our damnedest.''​

Here's the difference between me and you. You made endless unsupported claims. I gave you facts.

But the damning evidence continues:

The original policy changes were backed by scores of national professional and philanthropic organizations and several hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics. The belief then was widespread that the same scientific researchers who had conjured up antibiotics and vaccines during the outburst of medical discovery in the 50's and 60's had also developed penicillins to cure psychoses and thus revolutionize the treatment of the mentally ill.
....
Finally, there was a growing economic and political liability faced by state legislators. Enormous amounts of tax revenues were being used to support the state mental hospitals, and the institutions themselves were increasingly thought of as ''snake pits'' or facilities that few people wanted.

One of the most influential groups in bringing about the new national policy was the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health, an independent body set up by Congress in 1955.​

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

So let's review.... shall we miss "ignorant in both the history and the system itself"?

The driving force the changed the system, was not some mythical "private sector said they could do it better".

Rather the driving force was the National Institute of Mental Health, scores of national professional, philanthropic organizations, hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics, and finally growing economic and political liability.

Government doesn't have magic money trees to pay for everything you want.

No private sector saying they'll do it better. No evil greedy CEOs in the mix. Ivy league professors, politicians, psychiatrists, and a Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health setup by the government itself.

Facts. Not your BS ideologically driven lies. Facts baby.

And by the way.... the state run mental hospitals were terrible. Much as they are today if you don't know. Why do you think they wrote that book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1962, which was a Broadway play in 1963, and a movie in 1975?

You think things are much different today? Read from people who have been in them.

The Truth about Many Psychiatric Hospitals

Many times, people are treated with disrespect and like animals. They are often neglected, abused, and don’t get the help they desperately need. Many times they are given medications for the sole purpose of getting them to be quiet and not give the staff trouble and to make their jobs easier.

Patients are left to fend for themselves, given nothing to do and many times are scared due to the behavior of other patients. If you look at the Calendar of Events, you would think that the place keeps the patients busy and offers a lot to them to help with their mental illness. However. those calenders are, in my opinion, to pass the requirements from the state or whoever approves funding and have never really seen them followed.
​

That's your tax dollars at work. Don't you feel better about paying your taxes? See this is why right-wingers are always cutting this crap. We work hard, and then see what are tax dollars are used for. A calendar of events that never happen, so that they meet a state requirement and get funding.



And let's not forget that awesome state run mental hospital, where they left a woman to die on the floor. All those state Union employees rushing to..... stand by the wall and look at her, and the another rushes..... to roll on a chair and look at her, and the rolls back.

Good job Disir. That is all you girl. You support that system. You champion state run help. You claim the private sector can't do better. So that right there is all you.
You own it girl.

at least be mature enough to own what you support.

I've posted the article from 1984 on this forum.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


You will find the groups of people not included in your diatribe.

And that's two.

 

[Andylusion]

The upper class does not pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the myth, you and those like you, have to invent to play this "blame the rich" ideology.

I looked up top mental health charities.

First one on the list, I looked at their top donor list.

First name on the list, a $8 Billion dollar international corporation, Level 3 Communications.
Other big names include.

AT&T
Bank of America
esurance
Goldman Sachs
Guggenheim Partners
H. Van Ameringen Foundation
Kimpton Hotels*
The Louis L. Borick Foundation
Novak Druce Connolly Bove + Quigg LLP
PricewaterhouseCoopers
Steptoe & Johnson*
Wells Fargo Foundation

I could go through the list of individual donors, like Jonathan Kraft, of Kraft foods.

And this is just ONE charity for mental health.

Quite frankly, the rich and wealth, care more about the ill people, than most of you left-wingers do. Do tell... what have YOU done for the mentally ill?

As for saying "the US needs to bring back long term care facilities".

Well that's a nifty thought. Great. Who is going to pay for it? You? Oh no. Of course not you. You'll try and force us working people to pay for it. Well I don't have the money darling. I can't even afford your affordable care act.

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

Please provide evidence showing the reason they were closed down is because the private sector said they could do better?

See you claim that I am ignorant of history and the system, but you seem to know nothing yourself. Or at least, nothing you have said seems to fit with the reality said by people who know.

First the removal of people from state institutions, started before the 1980s.

The number of people institutionalized in California for example, peaked in 1959, at over 37,000 people. That number fell to 22,000 before Ronald Reagan ever became governor.

Contrary to your BS crap, it was the people involved in mental health care that demanded the changes.

Dr. Robert H. Felix, who was then director of the National Institute of Mental Health and a major figure in the shift to community centers, says now on reflection: ''Many of those patients who left the state hospitals never should have done so. We psychiatrists saw too much of the old snake pit, saw too many people who shouldn't have been there and we overreacted. The result is not what we intended, and perhaps we didn't ask the questions that should have been asked when developing a new concept, but psychiatrists are human, too, and we tried our damnedest.''​

Here's the difference between me and you. You made endless unsupported claims. I gave you facts.

But the damning evidence continues:

The original policy changes were backed by scores of national professional and philanthropic organizations and several hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics. The belief then was widespread that the same scientific researchers who had conjured up antibiotics and vaccines during the outburst of medical discovery in the 50's and 60's had also developed penicillins to cure psychoses and thus revolutionize the treatment of the mentally ill.
....
Finally, there was a growing economic and political liability faced by state legislators. Enormous amounts of tax revenues were being used to support the state mental hospitals, and the institutions themselves were increasingly thought of as ''snake pits'' or facilities that few people wanted.

One of the most influential groups in bringing about the new national policy was the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health, an independent body set up by Congress in 1955.​

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

So let's review.... shall we miss "ignorant in both the history and the system itself"?

The driving force the changed the system, was not some mythical "private sector said they could do it better".

Rather the driving force was the National Institute of Mental Health, scores of national professional, philanthropic organizations, hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics, and finally growing economic and political liability.

Government doesn't have magic money trees to pay for everything you want.

No private sector saying they'll do it better. No evil greedy CEOs in the mix. Ivy league professors, politicians, psychiatrists, and a Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health setup by the government itself.

Facts. Not your BS ideologically driven lies. Facts baby.

And by the way.... the state run mental hospitals were terrible. Much as they are today if you don't know. Why do you think they wrote that book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1962, which was a Broadway play in 1963, and a movie in 1975?

You think things are much different today? Read from people who have been in them.

The Truth about Many Psychiatric Hospitals

Many times, people are treated with disrespect and like animals. They are often neglected, abused, and don’t get the help they desperately need. Many times they are given medications for the sole purpose of getting them to be quiet and not give the staff trouble and to make their jobs easier.

Patients are left to fend for themselves, given nothing to do and many times are scared due to the behavior of other patients. If you look at the Calendar of Events, you would think that the place keeps the patients busy and offers a lot to them to help with their mental illness. However. those calenders are, in my opinion, to pass the requirements from the state or whoever approves funding and have never really seen them followed.
​

That's your tax dollars at work. Don't you feel better about paying your taxes? See this is why right-wingers are always cutting this crap. We work hard, and then see what are tax dollars are used for. A calendar of events that never happen, so that they meet a state requirement and get funding.



And let's not forget that awesome state run mental hospital, where they left a woman to die on the floor. All those state Union employees rushing to..... stand by the wall and look at her, and the another rushes..... to roll on a chair and look at her, and the rolls back.

Good job Disir. That is all you girl. You support that system. You champion state run help. You claim the private sector can't do better. So that right there is all you.
You own it girl.

at least be mature enough to own what you support.

I've posted the article from 1984 on this forum.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


You will find the groups of people not included in your diatribe.

And that's two.

Right, so the fact that people were being released from state hospitals in the 1960s, showing the population almost cut in half, long before Reagan was governor of California, let alone president in the 1980s... means that posting crap from 1984, twenty years after hundreds of thousands were released.... is completely irrelevant.

Moreover, I realize the left-wing is the ideology of a child, demanding money for everything you want regardless of ability to pay... Reagan was an adult, and trying to manage the budget.

In short.... grow up.

 

[Disir]

Wrong answer. Start over.

First, this isn't a hate the rich thing. It's an obvious thang. Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication? Do you think that these people are dealing with psychotic breaks in their home? Do you think these people are calling the cops on a regular basis to help them deal with said relative? They are not.
They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

Let's look at some costs associated with mental illness. From the time of the call to the police, covering incarceration, public defenders and bench time for magistrates......who pays for that?

From the initial call to the police and admitting to a psych ward, the medication, and subsequent release..........who pays for that? It's called treat and release. You will notice they are heavily medicated and considered cured and released with prescriptions that don't get filled. This could be (and has been) repeated ad nauseum for the entire life time of an individual. Who pays for that?

Who pays for the counselor or therapist to come to the home if there is an older parent with an adult mentally ill kid with severe aggression that can't function in society and lives in that home? The whole thing is about escaping liability.

Who pays for the medication?

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?

I do. Taxpayers do.

Right now we are spending a plethora of money in multiple directions that are not solving the problems. There is a more cost effective way.

What do *I* do? I work with them, and the intellectually disabled, and the addicts and all kinds of people you cannot begin to wrap your brain around.

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

Please provide evidence showing the reason they were closed down is because the private sector said they could do better?

See you claim that I am ignorant of history and the system, but you seem to know nothing yourself. Or at least, nothing you have said seems to fit with the reality said by people who know.

First the removal of people from state institutions, started before the 1980s.

The number of people institutionalized in California for example, peaked in 1959, at over 37,000 people. That number fell to 22,000 before Ronald Reagan ever became governor.

Contrary to your BS crap, it was the people involved in mental health care that demanded the changes.

Dr. Robert H. Felix, who was then director of the National Institute of Mental Health and a major figure in the shift to community centers, says now on reflection: ''Many of those patients who left the state hospitals never should have done so. We psychiatrists saw too much of the old snake pit, saw too many people who shouldn't have been there and we overreacted. The result is not what we intended, and perhaps we didn't ask the questions that should have been asked when developing a new concept, but psychiatrists are human, too, and we tried our damnedest.''​

Here's the difference between me and you. You made endless unsupported claims. I gave you facts.

But the damning evidence continues:

The original policy changes were backed by scores of national professional and philanthropic organizations and several hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics. The belief then was widespread that the same scientific researchers who had conjured up antibiotics and vaccines during the outburst of medical discovery in the 50's and 60's had also developed penicillins to cure psychoses and thus revolutionize the treatment of the mentally ill.
....
Finally, there was a growing economic and political liability faced by state legislators. Enormous amounts of tax revenues were being used to support the state mental hospitals, and the institutions themselves were increasingly thought of as ''snake pits'' or facilities that few people wanted.

One of the most influential groups in bringing about the new national policy was the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health, an independent body set up by Congress in 1955.​

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

So let's review.... shall we miss "ignorant in both the history and the system itself"?

The driving force the changed the system, was not some mythical "private sector said they could do it better".

Rather the driving force was the National Institute of Mental Health, scores of national professional, philanthropic organizations, hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics, and finally growing economic and political liability.

Government doesn't have magic money trees to pay for everything you want.

No private sector saying they'll do it better. No evil greedy CEOs in the mix. Ivy league professors, politicians, psychiatrists, and a Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health setup by the government itself.

Facts. Not your BS ideologically driven lies. Facts baby.

And by the way.... the state run mental hospitals were terrible. Much as they are today if you don't know. Why do you think they wrote that book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1962, which was a Broadway play in 1963, and a movie in 1975?

You think things are much different today? Read from people who have been in them.

The Truth about Many Psychiatric Hospitals

Many times, people are treated with disrespect and like animals. They are often neglected, abused, and don’t get the help they desperately need. Many times they are given medications for the sole purpose of getting them to be quiet and not give the staff trouble and to make their jobs easier.

Patients are left to fend for themselves, given nothing to do and many times are scared due to the behavior of other patients. If you look at the Calendar of Events, you would think that the place keeps the patients busy and offers a lot to them to help with their mental illness. However. those calenders are, in my opinion, to pass the requirements from the state or whoever approves funding and have never really seen them followed.
​

That's your tax dollars at work. Don't you feel better about paying your taxes? See this is why right-wingers are always cutting this crap. We work hard, and then see what are tax dollars are used for. A calendar of events that never happen, so that they meet a state requirement and get funding.



And let's not forget that awesome state run mental hospital, where they left a woman to die on the floor. All those state Union employees rushing to..... stand by the wall and look at her, and the another rushes..... to roll on a chair and look at her, and the rolls back.

Good job Disir. That is all you girl. You support that system. You champion state run help. You claim the private sector can't do better. So that right there is all you.
You own it girl.

at least be mature enough to own what you support.

I've posted the article from 1984 on this forum.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


You will find the groups of people not included in your diatribe.

And that's two.

Right, so the fact that people were being released from state hospitals in the 1960s, showing the population almost cut in half, long before Reagan was governor of California, let alone president in the 1980s... means that posting crap from 1984, twenty years after hundreds of thousands were released.... is completely irrelevant.

Moreover, I realize the left-wing is the ideology of a child, demanding money for everything you want regardless of ability to pay... Reagan was an adult, and trying to manage the budget.

In short.... grow up.

Actually, Reagan as Governor wanted the federal money and requested it. Reagan as President blocked it. He repealed The Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 ( Not to mention this:

By 1975 board-and-care homes had become big business in California. In Los Angeles alone, there were “approximately 11,000 ex-state-hospital patients living in board-and-care facilities.” Many of these homes were owned by for-profit chains, such as Beverly Enterprises, which owned 38 homes. Many homes were regarded by their owners “solely as a business, squeezing excessive profits out of it at the expense of residents.” Five members of Beverly Enterprises’ board of directors had ties to Governor Reagan; the chairman was vice chairman of a Reagan fundraising dinner, and “four others were either politically active in one or both of the Reagan [gubernatorial] campaigns and/or contributed large or undisclosed sums of money to the campaign.” Financial ties between the governor, who was emptying state hospitals, and business persons who were profiting from the process would also soon become apparent in other states.

It's quite sad to watch a man get so tied to his idealism that he cannot handle reality. In short, you grow up.

 

[Abishai100]

Director's Chair: Fashion-Couture Dreidel


Fashion and being able to appreciate design trends helps. This also makes me wonder if there's some extra intrigue associated with attitudes towards school uniforms. Do you think you're child's choice of clothing reflects his/her 'inner-consciousness'?

 

[Disir]

Director's Chair: Fashion-Couture Dreidel


Fashion and being able to appreciate design trends helps. This also makes me wonder if there's some extra intrigue associated with attitudes towards school uniforms. Do you think you're child's choice of clothing reflects his/her 'inner-consciousness'?


View attachment 100824

Federal officials are promising to subject nursing homes to closer scrutiny in the coming months. President Clinton has ordered a crackdown on repeat offenders, the Justice Department is investigating charges of fraud and abuse, and Congress is poised to reshape Medicare and other programs that pay for long-term care. Yet such efforts focus more on cutting costs than improving care; they fail to recognize that standards remain lax and reforms fall short because of the very nature of nursing homes. Facilities that care for nearly 2 million elderly and disabled residents form a lucrative private industry that profits directly from pain–while taxpayers foot the bill. Nursing homes ring up $87 billion of business each year, and more than 75 cents of every dollar comes from public funds through Medicaid and Medicare. The less of that money homes spend on care, the more they pocket for themselves and their shareholders. To insure those profits, nursing homes are careful not to skimp when it comes to investing in politics: The industry gives millions in contributions to state and federal officials, insuring weak public oversight.

The Shame of our Nursing Homes

From 1999

 

[Andylusion]

Do you think that these people are fighting with their mentally ill relative to take medication?

Yes. I know several that are. Some in my own family in fact.

They are sent someplace else so they do not have to deal with the shit.

Some no doubt. If you want that ability, then you need to earn the money to pay for it. Having high priced professional full time assisted living, is not a right. It's something you earn by working and paying for it.

It also is something you as and individual should have savings and insurance for, so that you are not too much of a burden to your family.

Second, what are they donating to? Let's have a look see at how this works

They are donating to many things. Charity care for those who can't afford to pay for it. They are donating to research for drugs and treatments that are actually effective. And they donate to direct support for families ruined by such things.

Who pays for that?

The family should. Otherwise charities should help. Like I said before, in my family, we have on occasion, helped. That's the way it should be. Help based on love. Not a dictation by left-wing radicals who use the force of government, to coerce people into helping.

When my Grand mother started losing her ability to survive on her own, my parents didn't demand a government program. They didn't try and vote for someone who said they'd fix it. They brought her into their home, and cared for her until her last day.

Who pays the disability check to the mentally ill that can cash the check and immediately buy drugs with it and lives on the streets?
I do. Taxpayers do.

This is the double talk that I expect from the left-wing.

On the one hand you complain about the cost of everything. On the other you say it's all being paid for by tax payers.

Which is it? If it's all covered by government, then what are you complaining about? If the cost to the people is so high, then how do you claim the tax payers are paying for it?

There is a better way. I agree. It's called personal responsibility, and free-market capitalism.

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

Please provide evidence showing the reason they were closed down is because the private sector said they could do better?

See you claim that I am ignorant of history and the system, but you seem to know nothing yourself. Or at least, nothing you have said seems to fit with the reality said by people who know.

First the removal of people from state institutions, started before the 1980s.

The number of people institutionalized in California for example, peaked in 1959, at over 37,000 people. That number fell to 22,000 before Ronald Reagan ever became governor.

Contrary to your BS crap, it was the people involved in mental health care that demanded the changes.

Dr. Robert H. Felix, who was then director of the National Institute of Mental Health and a major figure in the shift to community centers, says now on reflection: ''Many of those patients who left the state hospitals never should have done so. We psychiatrists saw too much of the old snake pit, saw too many people who shouldn't have been there and we overreacted. The result is not what we intended, and perhaps we didn't ask the questions that should have been asked when developing a new concept, but psychiatrists are human, too, and we tried our damnedest.''​

Here's the difference between me and you. You made endless unsupported claims. I gave you facts.

But the damning evidence continues:

The original policy changes were backed by scores of national professional and philanthropic organizations and several hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics. The belief then was widespread that the same scientific researchers who had conjured up antibiotics and vaccines during the outburst of medical discovery in the 50's and 60's had also developed penicillins to cure psychoses and thus revolutionize the treatment of the mentally ill.
....
Finally, there was a growing economic and political liability faced by state legislators. Enormous amounts of tax revenues were being used to support the state mental hospitals, and the institutions themselves were increasingly thought of as ''snake pits'' or facilities that few people wanted.

One of the most influential groups in bringing about the new national policy was the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health, an independent body set up by Congress in 1955.​

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

So let's review.... shall we miss "ignorant in both the history and the system itself"?

The driving force the changed the system, was not some mythical "private sector said they could do it better".

Rather the driving force was the National Institute of Mental Health, scores of national professional, philanthropic organizations, hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics, and finally growing economic and political liability.

Government doesn't have magic money trees to pay for everything you want.

No private sector saying they'll do it better. No evil greedy CEOs in the mix. Ivy league professors, politicians, psychiatrists, and a Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health setup by the government itself.

Facts. Not your BS ideologically driven lies. Facts baby.

And by the way.... the state run mental hospitals were terrible. Much as they are today if you don't know. Why do you think they wrote that book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1962, which was a Broadway play in 1963, and a movie in 1975?

You think things are much different today? Read from people who have been in them.

The Truth about Many Psychiatric Hospitals

Many times, people are treated with disrespect and like animals. They are often neglected, abused, and don’t get the help they desperately need. Many times they are given medications for the sole purpose of getting them to be quiet and not give the staff trouble and to make their jobs easier.

Patients are left to fend for themselves, given nothing to do and many times are scared due to the behavior of other patients. If you look at the Calendar of Events, you would think that the place keeps the patients busy and offers a lot to them to help with their mental illness. However. those calenders are, in my opinion, to pass the requirements from the state or whoever approves funding and have never really seen them followed.
​

That's your tax dollars at work. Don't you feel better about paying your taxes? See this is why right-wingers are always cutting this crap. We work hard, and then see what are tax dollars are used for. A calendar of events that never happen, so that they meet a state requirement and get funding.



And let's not forget that awesome state run mental hospital, where they left a woman to die on the floor. All those state Union employees rushing to..... stand by the wall and look at her, and the another rushes..... to roll on a chair and look at her, and the rolls back.

Good job Disir. That is all you girl. You support that system. You champion state run help. You claim the private sector can't do better. So that right there is all you.
You own it girl.

at least be mature enough to own what you support.

I've posted the article from 1984 on this forum.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


You will find the groups of people not included in your diatribe.

And that's two.

Right, so the fact that people were being released from state hospitals in the 1960s, showing the population almost cut in half, long before Reagan was governor of California, let alone president in the 1980s... means that posting crap from 1984, twenty years after hundreds of thousands were released.... is completely irrelevant.

Moreover, I realize the left-wing is the ideology of a child, demanding money for everything you want regardless of ability to pay... Reagan was an adult, and trying to manage the budget.

In short.... grow up.

Actually, Reagan as Governor wanted the federal money and requested it. Reagan as President blocked it. He repealed The Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 ( Not to mention this:

By 1975 board-and-care homes had become big business in California. In Los Angeles alone, there were “approximately 11,000 ex-state-hospital patients living in board-and-care facilities.” Many of these homes were owned by for-profit chains, such as Beverly Enterprises, which owned 38 homes. Many homes were regarded by their owners “solely as a business, squeezing excessive profits out of it at the expense of residents.” Five members of Beverly Enterprises’ board of directors had ties to Governor Reagan; the chairman was vice chairman of a Reagan fundraising dinner, and “four others were either politically active in one or both of the Reagan [gubernatorial] campaigns and/or contributed large or undisclosed sums of money to the campaign.” Financial ties between the governor, who was emptying state hospitals, and business persons who were profiting from the process would also soon become apparent in other states.

It's quite sad to watch a man get so tied to his idealism that he cannot handle reality. In short, you grow up.

Which doesn't change one thing that I said, or the evidence I posted. Until you can accept that people were being released in droves before Reagan was even governor.... you will only prove yourself a hypocritical partisan hack job.

 

[Andylusion]

Director's Chair: Fashion-Couture Dreidel


Fashion and being able to appreciate design trends helps. This also makes me wonder if there's some extra intrigue associated with attitudes towards school uniforms. Do you think you're child's choice of clothing reflects his/her 'inner-consciousness'?


View attachment 100824

Federal officials are promising to subject nursing homes to closer scrutiny in the coming months. President Clinton has ordered a crackdown on repeat offenders, the Justice Department is investigating charges of fraud and abuse, and Congress is poised to reshape Medicare and other programs that pay for long-term care. Yet such efforts focus more on cutting costs than improving care; they fail to recognize that standards remain lax and reforms fall short because of the very nature of nursing homes. Facilities that care for nearly 2 million elderly and disabled residents form a lucrative private industry that profits directly from pain–while taxpayers foot the bill. Nursing homes ring up $87 billion of business each year, and more than 75 cents of every dollar comes from public funds through Medicaid and Medicare. The less of that money homes spend on care, the more they pocket for themselves and their shareholders. To insure those profits, nursing homes are careful not to skimp when it comes to investing in politics: The industry gives millions in contributions to state and federal officials, insuring weak public oversight.

The Shame of our Nursing Homes

From 1999

Right, and I can tell you from first hand experience, that Clinton didn't do much.

Government run anything is terrible.

And unlike you, it isn't a partisan politically motivated hypocrisy. It's simply how government works.

The reason why people are treated well in any given system, is because if they are not, they leave and you lose money.

The reason a store provides good products, isn't because of some altruistic purpose... is because if they don't they lose customers, and if employees fail to meet those expectations, they lose their jobs.

The moment you setup any system where that isn't the case, then you circumvent the profit motive, and thus the customer service motive.

I worked at a company that provided equipment and medication to both privately run care centers, and the government care centers.

I've been in both. Toured both. Seen how both operate, and the quality of both.

I was in a state run mental care place here in Ohio, where their holes in the floor, large enough that you could see the dirt under the building. Where the flooring was worn away to the point entire sections of carpet were missing. Half the lights didn't work, and the place smelled like body sweat.

It was horrific. That's what you want for everyone?

I was at a privately run care facility, where the carpets were perfect, the place was clean, and it looked a bit worse than a Red Roof Inn. But the staff was friendly and helpful, and the patients were actually taken care of.

At the gov-home, the patients wandered around falling over, and were pretty much left to their own. I had the nurse tell me when I was leaving, to make sure to turn around and shut the door behind me, because some of the patients would follow me to my car, and sure enough on the way out some guy was following right behind me, and there was no staff around to stop him. If I hadn't shut the door behind me, he'd be getting in my car.

That's your system at work. That's your ideology failing people.

My system is the one listed above, where people are taken care of. Ronald Reagan was right. The soviet union, and your 'social care' system has failed every time it's tried.

My system has worked every time it's tried.

 

[Disir]

You are deflecting.

You are not uber wealthy. You are not in that category. Those places don't exist in the US anymore. They were closed down because the private sector said they could do the job more efficiently and more cost effective manner. They can't. In order for them to circumvent liability and hiring quality staff they have shifted it. The point is, you cannot donate to something that no longer exists.

In fact, they are closing beds in your treat and release hospitals for actively suicidal and homicidal individuals.

There is no double talk. You are simply ignorant in both the history and the system itself.

Many of these people do not have family or they cannot be physically controlled. Genetic and chromosomal disorders may also play a part and it is a case of the blind leading the blind. This is the reality.

Please provide evidence showing the reason they were closed down is because the private sector said they could do better?

See you claim that I am ignorant of history and the system, but you seem to know nothing yourself. Or at least, nothing you have said seems to fit with the reality said by people who know.

First the removal of people from state institutions, started before the 1980s.

The number of people institutionalized in California for example, peaked in 1959, at over 37,000 people. That number fell to 22,000 before Ronald Reagan ever became governor.

Contrary to your BS crap, it was the people involved in mental health care that demanded the changes.

Dr. Robert H. Felix, who was then director of the National Institute of Mental Health and a major figure in the shift to community centers, says now on reflection: ''Many of those patients who left the state hospitals never should have done so. We psychiatrists saw too much of the old snake pit, saw too many people who shouldn't have been there and we overreacted. The result is not what we intended, and perhaps we didn't ask the questions that should have been asked when developing a new concept, but psychiatrists are human, too, and we tried our damnedest.''​

Here's the difference between me and you. You made endless unsupported claims. I gave you facts.

But the damning evidence continues:

The original policy changes were backed by scores of national professional and philanthropic organizations and several hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics. The belief then was widespread that the same scientific researchers who had conjured up antibiotics and vaccines during the outburst of medical discovery in the 50's and 60's had also developed penicillins to cure psychoses and thus revolutionize the treatment of the mentally ill.
....
Finally, there was a growing economic and political liability faced by state legislators. Enormous amounts of tax revenues were being used to support the state mental hospitals, and the institutions themselves were increasingly thought of as ''snake pits'' or facilities that few people wanted.

One of the most influential groups in bringing about the new national policy was the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health, an independent body set up by Congress in 1955.​

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

So let's review.... shall we miss "ignorant in both the history and the system itself"?

The driving force the changed the system, was not some mythical "private sector said they could do it better".

Rather the driving force was the National Institute of Mental Health, scores of national professional, philanthropic organizations, hundred people prominent in medicine, academia and politics, and finally growing economic and political liability.

Government doesn't have magic money trees to pay for everything you want.

No private sector saying they'll do it better. No evil greedy CEOs in the mix. Ivy league professors, politicians, psychiatrists, and a Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health setup by the government itself.

Facts. Not your BS ideologically driven lies. Facts baby.

And by the way.... the state run mental hospitals were terrible. Much as they are today if you don't know. Why do you think they wrote that book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1962, which was a Broadway play in 1963, and a movie in 1975?

You think things are much different today? Read from people who have been in them.

The Truth about Many Psychiatric Hospitals

Many times, people are treated with disrespect and like animals. They are often neglected, abused, and don’t get the help they desperately need. Many times they are given medications for the sole purpose of getting them to be quiet and not give the staff trouble and to make their jobs easier.

Patients are left to fend for themselves, given nothing to do and many times are scared due to the behavior of other patients. If you look at the Calendar of Events, you would think that the place keeps the patients busy and offers a lot to them to help with their mental illness. However. those calenders are, in my opinion, to pass the requirements from the state or whoever approves funding and have never really seen them followed.
​

That's your tax dollars at work. Don't you feel better about paying your taxes? See this is why right-wingers are always cutting this crap. We work hard, and then see what are tax dollars are used for. A calendar of events that never happen, so that they meet a state requirement and get funding.



And let's not forget that awesome state run mental hospital, where they left a woman to die on the floor. All those state Union employees rushing to..... stand by the wall and look at her, and the another rushes..... to roll on a chair and look at her, and the rolls back.

Good job Disir. That is all you girl. You support that system. You champion state run help. You claim the private sector can't do better. So that right there is all you.
You own it girl.

at least be mature enough to own what you support.

I've posted the article from 1984 on this forum.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


You will find the groups of people not included in your diatribe.

And that's two.

Right, so the fact that people were being released from state hospitals in the 1960s, showing the population almost cut in half, long before Reagan was governor of California, let alone president in the 1980s... means that posting crap from 1984, twenty years after hundreds of thousands were released.... is completely irrelevant.

Moreover, I realize the left-wing is the ideology of a child, demanding money for everything you want regardless of ability to pay... Reagan was an adult, and trying to manage the budget.

In short.... grow up.

Actually, Reagan as Governor wanted the federal money and requested it. Reagan as President blocked it. He repealed The Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 ( Not to mention this:

By 1975 board-and-care homes had become big business in California. In Los Angeles alone, there were “approximately 11,000 ex-state-hospital patients living in board-and-care facilities.” Many of these homes were owned by for-profit chains, such as Beverly Enterprises, which owned 38 homes. Many homes were regarded by their owners “solely as a business, squeezing excessive profits out of it at the expense of residents.” Five members of Beverly Enterprises’ board of directors had ties to Governor Reagan; the chairman was vice chairman of a Reagan fundraising dinner, and “four others were either politically active in one or both of the Reagan [gubernatorial] campaigns and/or contributed large or undisclosed sums of money to the campaign.” Financial ties between the governor, who was emptying state hospitals, and business persons who were profiting from the process would also soon become apparent in other states.

It's quite sad to watch a man get so tied to his idealism that he cannot handle reality. In short, you grow up.

Which doesn't change one thing that I said, or the evidence I posted. Until you can accept that people were being released in droves before Reagan was even governor.... you will only prove yourself a hypocritical partisan hack job.

They were being released before Reagan. I have never claimed otherwise. That said, who the hell do you think owned those facilities they were being sent to locally in California? Exactly.

 

[Disir]

Director's Chair: Fashion-Couture Dreidel


Fashion and being able to appreciate design trends helps. This also makes me wonder if there's some extra intrigue associated with attitudes towards school uniforms. Do you think you're child's choice of clothing reflects his/her 'inner-consciousness'?


View attachment 100824

Federal officials are promising to subject nursing homes to closer scrutiny in the coming months. President Clinton has ordered a crackdown on repeat offenders, the Justice Department is investigating charges of fraud and abuse, and Congress is poised to reshape Medicare and other programs that pay for long-term care. Yet such efforts focus more on cutting costs than improving care; they fail to recognize that standards remain lax and reforms fall short because of the very nature of nursing homes. Facilities that care for nearly 2 million elderly and disabled residents form a lucrative private industry that profits directly from pain–while taxpayers foot the bill. Nursing homes ring up $87 billion of business each year, and more than 75 cents of every dollar comes from public funds through Medicaid and Medicare. The less of that money homes spend on care, the more they pocket for themselves and their shareholders. To insure those profits, nursing homes are careful not to skimp when it comes to investing in politics: The industry gives millions in contributions to state and federal officials, insuring weak public oversight.

The Shame of our Nursing Homes

From 1999

Right, and I can tell you from first hand experience, that Clinton didn't do much.

Government run anything is terrible.

And unlike you, it isn't a partisan politically motivated hypocrisy. It's simply how government works.

The reason why people are treated well in any given system, is because if they are not, they leave and you lose money.

The reason a store provides good products, isn't because of some altruistic purpose... is because if they don't they lose customers, and if employees fail to meet those expectations, they lose their jobs.

The moment you setup any system where that isn't the case, then you circumvent the profit motive, and thus the customer service motive.

I worked at a company that provided equipment and medication to both privately run care centers, and the government care centers.

I've been in both. Toured both. Seen how both operate, and the quality of both.

I was in a state run mental care place here in Ohio, where their holes in the floor, large enough that you could see the dirt under the building. Where the flooring was worn away to the point entire sections of carpet were missing. Half the lights didn't work, and the place smelled like body sweat.

It was horrific. That's what you want for everyone?

I was at a privately run care facility, where the carpets were perfect, the place was clean, and it looked a bit worse than a Red Roof Inn. But the staff was friendly and helpful, and the patients were actually taken care of.

At the gov-home, the patients wandered around falling over, and were pretty much left to their own. I had the nurse tell me when I was leaving, to make sure to turn around and shut the door behind me, because some of the patients would follow me to my car, and sure enough on the way out some guy was following right behind me, and there was no staff around to stop him. If I hadn't shut the door behind me, he'd be getting in my car.

That's your system at work. That's your ideology failing people.

My system is the one listed above, where people are taken care of. Ronald Reagan was right. The soviet union, and your 'social care' system has failed every time it's tried.

My system has worked every time it's tried.

They can't leave and choose another They are either intellectually disabled or mentally ill. Something that just kind of goes right over your head. Don't kid yourself, the Democrats are heavily involved in profiteering as well.

Nowhere in the nursing home industry is the corruption, patient neglect and abuse and Medicare and Medicaid fraud more blatant than within the giant nursing home chain of Beverly Enterprises. Based in Fort Smith, it reportedly operates more than 400 nursing facilities, assisted living centers and hospices in 23 states and the District of Columbia.

The chain was supposedly sold a few months back, but a little digging under the layers of the conglomerate would probably find Beverly in there somewhere.

As far back as October 18, 1986, the New York Times reported a Beverly settlement with the State Department of Health Services, with an agreement to pay more than $600,000 in civil penalties as the result of an investigation of several of the company's California facilities. The agreement stated that no new licenses would be issued to Beverly for a 14-month period.

However, this comment by Beverly CEO, Robert Van Tuyle, at the time is comforting. He told the Times, "the state allegations of deaths related to patient care had not been proved," and that "the incidents were isolated cases."

Jumping forward to February 2001, the US Justice Department's San Francisco office and the Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services, announced the largest settlement ever for fraud in a nursing home case.

It said Beverly Enterprises Inc., the parent company of Beverly Healthcare, the nation's largest nursing home chain, has agreed to pay a civil settlement fine of $170 million and to relinquish control of 10 nursing homes in California. Their subsidiary, Beverly-California, will pay a $5 million criminal fine settlement.

Beverly-California pleaded guilty to one criminal count of fraud and 10 counts of making false statements to Medicare.

A point should be made that the settlement included a corporate integrity agreement that provided for a reporting and compliance program to be overseen by the Office of Inspector General. As part of the agreement, Beverly agreed to insure that its nursing homes complied with all federal regulations including the regulations under the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987 (OBRA)

These OBRA regulations impose numerous requirements on Beverly in its resident care including requirements regarding the following:
(a) Reporting resident injuries of unknown origin to state authorities;
(b) Resident assessment and care planning;
(c) Food services and nutrition;
(d) Diabetes and wound care;
(e) Infection control;
(f) Abuse and neglect policies and reporting procedures; (g) Staffing;
(h) Appropriate drug therapies;
(I) Appropriate mental health services;
(j) Provision of basic care needs;
(k) Incontinence care;
(l) Resident rights and restraint use;
(m) Activities of daily living care;
(n) Therapy services;
(o) Quality of life, including accommodation of needs and activities; and
(p) Assessment of patient competence to make treatment decisions.

A review of the continuous train of charges against Beverly in the years following the signing of the integrity agreement proves that the document was a complete waste of tax dollar funded clerical resources.

Five months after it was signed, in July 2001, the Associated Press reported that the nation's largest operator of nursing homes will pay $1.2 million to settle a racial discrimination lawsuit. Nine former workers claimed that black employees were harassed and subjected to discrimination and racial slurs at the Bridgeton Nursing Center in north St. Louis County, which Beverly owned at the time.

Beverly Enterprises - Poster Child Of Fraud And Neglect In Nursing Home Industry

Articles about Beverly Enterprises - latimes

Either way, it has shifted again and would be in line with what I first posted.

Beverly and Fraud

Your failure to recognize what is happening currently is hindering progress. Fact is, I could lay every medicaid/medicare fraud in the mental health sector, every for profit nursing home death and every mentally ill killer on you and tell you to own it and be 100% correct by your own standards. It's unproductive as hell. The reality is that the private sector has failed miserably.

If you aren't smart enough to pull an article from 1984 and recognize the doctors are telling you that you have people that should never have been released into society then you aren't smart enough to solve the problems. If you aren't smart enough to recognize the population we are talking about isn't equipped to make decisions taking their business elsewhere then you aren't smart enough to tackle the problem. If you aren't smart enough to recognize the closing of beds in acute psych wards then you aren't smart enough to focus on the problem.

And that is ok. For you this had nothing to do with solving the issues. It was about you thumping your chest and screaming free market.

You will not waste my time again. We are done here.