What is school for?

[Arthur]

School is for socialization.

 

[PoliticalChic]

School is for socialization.

Come here into the light, my boy. You don't have to stay in the dark.

Why in the heck would I need to have my kids socialized by the system? Oh yes, so they can learn how to curse, realize that they can get passed on without studying, and think that feeling passes for knowing. These are great virtues. I think I'll pass. Oh wait, I already did.

 

[random3434]

School is for socialization.

Come here into the light, my boy. You don't have to stay in the dark.

Why in the heck would I need to have my kids socialized by the system? Oh yes, so they can learn how to curse, realize that they can get passed on without studying, and think that feeling passes for knowing. These are great virtues. I think I'll pass. Oh wait, I already did.

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

 

[elvis]

I read an interesting blog post by Seth Godin, who some of you may know for his work in marketing, particularly as it relates to new media, web 2.0, etc. Anyway, here was his list of things school is for. I thought it might make an interesting discussion. I'm sure some of you will have some additional ideas or take exception to some of these.

I put in bold the ones I feel are especially true in how schools are run. Not necessarily how they should be run, but how I felt they were being run when I was there.


Become an informed citizen
Be able to read for pleasure
Be trained in the rudimentary skills necessary for employment
Do well on standardized tests
Homogenize society, at least a bit
Pasteurize out the dangerous ideas
Give kids something to do while parents work
Teach future citizens how to conform
Teach future consumers how to desire
Build a social fabric
Create leaders who help us compete on a world stage
Generate future scientists who will advance medicine and technology
Learn for the sake of learning
Help people become interesting and productive
Defang the proletariat
Establish a floor below which a typical person is unlikely to fall
Find and celebrate prodigies, geniuses and the gifted
Make sure kids learn to exercise, eat right and avoid common health problems
Teach future citizens to obey authority
Teach future employees to do the same
Increase appreciation for art and culture
Teach creativity and problem solving
Minimize public spelling mistakes
Increase emotional intelligence
Decrease crime by teaching civics and ethics
Increase understanding of a life well lived
Make sure the sports teams have enough players

So, what do you think?

it's for finding prom queens to impregnate.

 

[Modbert]

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

PC only thinks about herself and believes only in her own delusions Echo. It's really not worth the time trying to have a civil debate with her; it never works out.

People can bash public school all they want, but some if not most of the smartest people in American history attended it.

Bashers just feel they are better if they send their child to private school so they can be taught about God without having to deal with all the things PC talks about. Problem is, private schools are exactly like that; only adding God to the mix.

Hell, many of the catholic/private schools in my state are worse; especially when it comes to alcohol.

 

[random3434]

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

PC only thinks about herself and believes only in her own delusions Echo. It's really not worth the time trying to have a civil debate with her; it never works out.

People can bash public school all they want, but some if not most of the smartest people in American history attended it.

Bashers just feel they are better if they send their child to private school so they can be taught about God without having to deal with all the things PC talks about. Problem is, private schools are exactly like that; only adding God to the mix.

Hell, many of the catholic/private schools in my state are worse; especially when it comes to alcohol.

Well, I have no problem with where a parent chooses to send their children. I have a nephew who goes to a private school, some friends who home school, and of course the majority of us whose children attend public school. Annie teaches in a private school, I teach in a public one. Yes she and I share our teaching tips and ideas with each other, we don't say one is better than the other. I just get tired of all the generalizations of public schools, but I've said that before, eh? We have caring, dedicated teachers here.

 

[elvis]

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

PC only thinks about herself and believes only in her own delusions Echo. It's really not worth the time trying to have a civil debate with her; it never works out.

People can bash public school all they want, but some if not most of the smartest people in American history attended it.

Bashers just feel they are better if they send their child to private school so they can be taught about God without having to deal with all the things PC talks about. Problem is, private schools are exactly like that; only adding God to the mix.

Hell, many of the catholic/private schools in my state are worse; especially when it comes to alcohol.

If PC were a democrat, you would have left this thread alone.

 

[Agnapostate]

People can bash public school all they want, but some if not most of the smartest people in American history attended it.

Interesting analysis.

This list of secondary school dropouts consists of noteworthy people who left high school, or an equivalent institution, without having graduated. It does not include those who never attended a secondary school to begin with, and so excludes all individuals who lived prior to the first implementations of the concept of secondary education at the end of the 18th century. It does include students who were expelled, rather than dropping out voluntarily, and it also includes those who dropped out but later re-enrolled and graduated, or received an honorary diploma later in life.

As secondary education has become dramatically more common over the years, the number of secondary school dropouts has increased as well. Additionally, failure to graduate has become much more noteworthy and stigmatizing in the eyes of many than it was in the 19th and early 20th centuries, although there are a number of dropouts who nevertheless later went on to become successful in a variety of fields.

Although secondary schools in different countries have a number of significant differences, there are enough similarities for some grouping to be possible. Most secondary schools begin in 7th grade at the earliest, and end in 12th grade at the latest, though there are exceptions. Secondary school is also mandatory until a certain age (usually between 15 and 18) in most countries, unlike higher education institutions, which as a result have fewer attendees and fewer college dropouts. Secondary school dropouts have also become much more common than primary school dropouts, though in the past it was not unusual to receive only a few years of formal education at best.

British secondary school drop outs are those who left school without any qualifications or those who left before the age of 16. In the UK school system, pupils do not "graduate," nor do they receive degrees; only university students can graduate and obtain degrees.

Actors and models

Julie Andrews, British singer and actress; pulled out of school at age fifteen by her mother.

Christina Applegate, American actress; dropped out of Excelsior High School in Los Angeles at age seventeen to pursue her acting career.

Lucille Ball
Brigitte Bardot
Roseanne Barr
Drew Barrymore
Sean Bean
Joey Bishop
Humphrey Bogart
Clara Bow
Marlon Brando
Charles Bronson
Pierce Brosnan
Gisele Bündchen
Raymond Burr
Ellen Burstyn
Michael Caine
Neve Campbell
Jim Carrey
Toni Collette
Sean Connery
Joan Crawford
Russell Crowe
Tom Cruise
Beverly D'Angelo
Robert DeNiro
Johnny Depp
Bo Derek
Matt Dillon
Ami Dolenz
Patty Duke
Jeanne Eagels
Rupert Everett
Lola Falana
Colin Farrell
Errol Flynn
Ben Foster
Clark Gable
Eva Gabor
Greta Garbo
Nona Gaye
Lillian Gish
Whoopi Goldberg
Cuba Gooding Jr.
Cary Grant
Paris Hilton
Djimon Hounsou
Margaux Hemingway
Benny Hill
Nicole Kidman
Keira Knightley
Yaphet Kotto
Jude Law
Henrietta Leaver
Heath Ledger
Jason Lee
Jennifer Jason Leigh
Jared Leto
Traci Lords
Sophia Loren
Sophie Marceau
Lee Marvin
Ewan McGregor
Melina Mercouri
Alyssa Milano
Robert Mitchum
Marilyn Monroe
Demi Moore
Roger Moore
Peter O'Toole
Al Pacino
Joe Pesci
Joaquin Phoenix
Teri Polo
Keanu Reeves
Leah Remini
Michelle Rodriguez
Rene Russo
Charlie Sheen
Patrick Stewart
Kiefer Sutherland
Hilary Swank
Charlize Theron
Danny Thomas
Uma Thurman
John Travolta
Kate Winslet
Elijah Wood
John Wood
Bam Margera (Got his GED.)
Artists
James Montgomery Flagg
Henry Hill
Vincent van Gogh

Authors, poets, and playwrights

Joseph Brodsky
Jackie Collins
William Faulkner
Gwendolyn MacEwen
Herman Melville
Anaïs Nin
Banjo Paterson
William Saroyan
William Shakespeare
George Bernard Shaw
Leon Uris
Jan Wolkers

Business leaders and entrepreneurs

Richard Branson
James H. Clark
Jack Kent Cooke
Simon Cowell
Charles E. Culpepper
George Eastman
Henry Ford
Soichiro Honda
Ray Kroc
Marcus Loew
David H. Murdock
John D. Rockefeller
Vidal Sassoon
Alan Sugar
Dave Thomas

Comedians

Jack Benny
George Carlin
Billy Connolly
Redd Foxx
Jackie Gleason
Alan King
Jerry Lewis
Groucho Marx
Paula Poundstone
Richard Pryor
Will Rogers

Film directors

Luc Besson
Peter Bogdanovich
John Boorman
D. W. Griffith
John Huston
Peter Jackson
Quentin Tarantino
John Woo

Musicians, singers, and composers

Bryan Adams
Christina Aguilera
Billie Joe Armstrong
Louis Armstrong
Fantasia Barrino
Shirley Bassey
Beck
The Bee Gees
Irving Berlin
Bo Bice
Clint Black
Mary J. Blige
Michael Bolton
Sonny Bono
David Bowie
Michelle Branch
Bushwick Bill
Glen Campbell
Ray Charles
Cher
Eric Clapton
Kurt Cobain
Joe Cocker
Phil Collins
Perry Como
Elvis Costello
Roger Daltrey
Bo Diddley
Céline Dion
Thomas Dolby
Steve Earle
Duke Ellington
Eminem
Mark Oliver Everett
Jose Feliciano
Ella Fitzgerald
Peter Frampton
Aretha Franklin
Jerry Garcia
Marvin Gaye
Boy George
George Gershwin
Benny Goodman
Macy Gray
Dave Grohl
Woody Guthrie
Merle Haggard
George Harrison
John Lee Hooker
Fiona Horne
Lena Horne
Janis Ian
Natalie Imbruglia
Wolfman Jack
Jay-Z
Billy Joel
Elton John
Rickie Lee Jones
Tom Jones
Chaka Khan
Kid Rock
B.B. King
Eartha Kitt
Gladys Knight
Avril Lavigne
Little Richard
Don Omar
Brian Littrell
LL Cool J
Courtney Love
Loretta Lynn
Shirley Manson
Chan Marshall
Dean Martin
Natalie Merchant
George Michael
Liza Minnelli
Van Morrison
Nelly
Wayne Newton
Sinéad O'Connor
Kelly Osbourne
Ozzy Osbourne
Charlie Parker
Tom Petty
Sam Phillips
Prince
Otis Redding
Busta Rhymes
Axl Rose
Ja Rule
Scarface
Chuck Schuldiner
Seal
Frank Sinatra
Scott Stapp
Ringo Starr
Donna Summer
James Taylor
Randy Travis
Tanya Tucker
Steven Tyler
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Barry White
Hank Williams
Wendy Orlean Williams
Eric Wright
Tammy Wynette
Elliott Yamin
Neil Young

News anchors, journalists, and reporters

Peter Jennings

Politicians, socialites, and royalty

Margaret Brown
Diana, Princess of Wales
Buzz Hargrove
Horace Greeley
Roy Greensmith
John Major
Walter Nash
Ruth Ann Minner
Ralph Klein
J.J. Brewer
Ralph Bauer
Dee Dee Amoya
Ronald Reagan
Allen Narito

Scientists and inventors

James Buchanan Eads
Albert Einstein
Anton van Leeuwenhoek
Garrett A. Morgan
Wright brothers

Sports players

Boris Becker
Yogi Berra
Björn Borg
Jennifer Capriati
Joe DiMaggio
Dale Earnhardt
George Foreman
Nick Faldo
Joe Frazier
Bobby Hull
Evel Knievel
Tommy Lasorda
Joe Louis
Bobby Orr
Alberto Tomba

Uncategorized

Robert Evans
John Llewellyn
Daniel Negreanu
Olivia Newton-John
Adolph Ochs
Brian Orser
Jack Paar
Gordon Parks
Rosa Parks
Evita Peron
Donald Pleasence
Sarah Polley
Charley Pride
Wolfgang Puck
Anthony Quinn
Paul Revere
Ann Marie Roberts
Nora Roberts
Chi Chi Rodriguez
Roy Rogers
Theresa Russell
Derek Sanderson
William Saroyan
Christopher Scarver
Anna Nicole Smith
Casey Stengel
Robert Stigwood
François Truffaut
Twiggy
Tracey Ullman
Peter Ustinov
Jean-Claude Van Damme
Gloria Vanderbilt
Estella Warren
Lawrence Welk
Kitty Wells
Mae West
Babe Didrikson Zaharias

Incidentally, I thought it would be interesting to point out that criticism of school as an authoritarian institution designed to instill students with the propensity to obey hierarchical authority isn't limited to Bowles's and Gintis's socialist perspective of schooling. Sheldon Richman of the Cato Institute offers a similar perspective.

Horrors! Maybe the Schools Are Working Just Fine - Anti-School Articles

Most people today are convinced that the public schools are failing. Dissatisfaction with public education is at an all-time high. But have the public schools really failed? That depends on what they were originally set up to do.

In a profound sense, the public schools are not an American institution. They were modeled on the system of public education found in authoritarian Prussia in the early 19th century. After Prussia's defeat by Napoleon in 1807, King Frederick William III reinforced the national school system set up in 1717. Children aged seven to fourteen had to attend school, and parents who did not comply could have their children taken away.

Private schools could exist only so long as they met government standards. Teachers had to be certified, and high-school graduation examinations were necessary to enter the learned professions and the civil service. The schools imposed an official language to the prejudice of ethnic groups living in Prussia. The purpose of the system was to instill nationalism in demoralized Prussia and to train young men for the military and the bureaucracy. As the German philosopher Johann Fichte, a key influence on the system, said, "The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will."

What does that have to do with the United States? Early in our history, education was mainly a private, free-market activity — no compulsory attendance laws, and no school taxes. That system produced the most literate, independent-thinking, self-reliant people in history.

But not everyone was satisfied with the American way of doing things. According to John Taylor Gatto, the New York State Teacher of the Year in 1991:

A small number of very passionate American ideological leaders visited Prussia in the first half of the 19th century; fell in love with the order, obedience and efficiency of its education system; and campaigned relentlessly thereafter to bring the Prussian vision to these shores.

They finally succeeded early in the 20th century.

Just as the Prussian system was intended to unify Germany, the American educators' goal was to create a national culture out of the disparate subcultures that comprised the country in that period. (Catholic immigrants were a prominent target.) "To do that," writes Gatto, "children would have to be removed from their parents and from inappropriate cultural influences."

The modern public school curriculum comes right out of the Prussian system. Gatto says the American educationists imported three major ideas from Prussia. The first was that the purpose of state schooling was not intellectual training but the conditioning of children "to obedience, subordination and collective life." Second, whole ideas were broken into fragmented "subjects," and school days were divided into fixed periods "so that self-motivation to learn would be muted by ceaseless interruptions." Third, the state was posited as the true parent of the children.

Over the years, various fads have seized the education bureaucrats of America, but those fads have been variations on a theme: The public schools are intended to create complacent "good citizens" — not independent thinkers — because political leaders do not like boat-rockers who question things too closely. They prefer citizens who pay their taxes on time and leave them alone to chart the course of the nation. The growth in government power since the advent of public schools is hard to ignore.

So, judged by their purpose, how have the public schools performed?

Not bad, really. Unlike our ancestors' private schools, the public schools produce citizens who look to government to make important decisions for them — from whether to help the poor, to what drugs to take, to how to get an education — and solve societal problems.

In other words, the public schools are working. If we do not like what they have achieved, then we have to junk the Prussian system and move toward an education based on the American principles of free markets and individual liberty. Mere reform is not enough. We need to separate school and state. That's the only sure way to revitalize education, families, and the American spirit.

 

[PoliticalChic]

School is for socialization.

Come here into the light, my boy. You don't have to stay in the dark.

Why in the heck would I need to have my kids socialized by the system? Oh yes, so they can learn how to curse, realize that they can get passed on without studying, and think that feeling passes for knowing. These are great virtues. I think I'll pass. Oh wait, I already did.

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

Echo, my thoughts on the education system in general is different than some of the individual teachers that I've had the privilege to know.

I would never say that what you and Annie are doing are not worthwhile. I would never have the courage nor the patience to do what you and Annie do. You are the few who sound dedicated as well as knowlegable enough to be able to teach. But, I will not mince words when I say most teachers are just not knowledgable enough. They don't know their history and are not informed about current events, and they either don't realize that they don't know enough, or they just don't care. I have close teacher friends and relatives and we've had a countless discussions on just this subject.

Sadly, I tell people to avoid the educational field altogether, as a profession. There may be select schools that may defy the rules, but for the most part teachers have become disciplinarians, having to teach a curricula that have been dumbed down, and forced to change grades at the behest of their principle.

Echo, you sound like you are putting your best foot forward, but for the most part teachers complain about their jobs and can't wait to retire. I wish I could be more optimistic, but I can't.

 

[elvis]

Come here into the light, my boy. You don't have to stay in the dark.

Why in the heck would I need to have my kids socialized by the system? Oh yes, so they can learn how to curse, realize that they can get passed on without studying, and think that feeling passes for knowing. These are great virtues. I think I'll pass. Oh wait, I already did.

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

Echo, my thoughts on the education system in general is different than some of the individual teachers that I've had the privilege to know.

I would never say that what you and Annie are doing are not worthwhile. I would never have the courage nor the patience to do what you and Annie do. You are the few who sound dedicated as well as knowlegable enough to be able to teach. But, I will not mince words when I say most teachers are just not knowledgable enough. They don't know their history and are not informed about current events, and they either don't realize that they don't know enough, or they just don't care. I have close teacher friends and relatives and we've had a countless discussions on just this subject.

Sadly, I tell people to avoid the educational field altogether, as a profession. There may be select schools that may defy the rules, but for the most part teachers have become disciplinarians, having to teach a curricula that have been dumbed down, and forced to change grades at the behest of their principle.

Echo, you sound like you are putting your best foot forward, but for the most part teachers complain about their jobs and can't wait to retire. I wish I could be more optimistic, but I can't.

doesn't sound delusional to me.

 

[random3434]

Come here into the light, my boy. You don't have to stay in the dark.

Why in the heck would I need to have my kids socialized by the system? Oh yes, so they can learn how to curse, realize that they can get passed on without studying, and think that feeling passes for knowing. These are great virtues. I think I'll pass. Oh wait, I already did.

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

Echo, my thoughts on the education system in general is different than some of the individual teachers that I've had the privilege to know.

I would never say that what you and Annie are doing are not worthwhile. I would never have the courage nor the patience to do what you and Annie do. You are the few who sound dedicated as well as knowlegable enough to be able to teach. But, I will not mince words when I say most teachers are just not knowledgable enough. They don't know their history and are not informed about current events, and they either don't realize that they don't know enough, or they just don't care. I have close teacher friends and relatives and we've had a countless discussions on just this subject.

Sadly, I tell people to avoid the educational field altogether, as a profession. There may be select schools that may defy the rules, but for the most part teachers have become disciplinarians, having to teach a curricula that have been dumbed down, and forced to change grades at the behest of their principle.

Echo, you sound like you are putting your best foot forward, but for the most part teachers complain about their jobs and can't wait to retire. I wish I could be more optimistic, but I can't.

Thank you for that honest answer. I just know that I have ALWAYS wanted to teach special needs students since I was 13 years old. I consider it my calling. I love it, and I love the children I teach. I want what is best for them, as do a lot of the teachers I know. Yes, there are some bad ones. I have one in my building that HATES kids, now why would you be a teacher if you hate kids so much?

Anyway, my friend Risa has 6 children, and she home schools them all. They are thriving, and do all kinds of community activities too. Of course, she got her degree in teaching while we were in college. I don't feel ALL parents are qualified to home school. I know you are, you are one smart cookie, and I'm sure your children learn a lot from you.

 

[random3434]

Come here into the light, my boy. You don't have to stay in the dark.

Why in the heck would I need to have my kids socialized by the system? Oh yes, so they can learn how to curse, realize that they can get passed on without studying, and think that feeling passes for knowing. These are great virtues. I think I'll pass. Oh wait, I already did.

So you don't think what Annie and I do is valid and worthwhile PC?

What do you and Annie do?

We are stippers, putting ourselves through school of course.

 

[Arthur]

Nice combination of qualities. Strippers putting yourselves through school?

 

[random3434]

Nice combination of qualities.

Well, it is the mantra after all.

 

[Arthur]

Oh momma pay me some. That's my mantra.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Thank you for that honest answer. I just know that I have ALWAYS wanted to teach special needs students since I was 13 years old. I consider it my calling. I love it, and I love the children I teach. I want what is best for them, as do a lot of the teachers I know. Yes, there are some bad ones. I have one in my building that HATES kids, now why would you be a teacher if you hate kids so much?

Anyway, my friend Risa has 6 children, and she home schools them all. They are thriving, and do all kinds of community activities too. Of course, she got her degree in teaching while we were in college. I don't feel ALL parents are qualified to home school. I know you are, you are one smart cookie, and I'm sure your children learn a lot from you.

See, you have a great attitude. I have friend who teaches 2nd graders and she has always loved kids and it shows because she looks forward to going to school and does things with the kids that light up their eyes.

Echo, I do have to disagree that you need to have even a college degree to teach. Of course that helps, but the parents who are truly motivated can do a good-great job without a college degree. I hate to admit it, but I don't know everything. That's why we use a curriculum. I use K12. It's a company that was founded by Bill Bennett. It is a curriculum that takes the classical approach. Our style of homeschooling is very formal and the kids are thriving on it.

Your friend, Risa who has 6 children deserves kudos. I don't think I can homeschool 6. That's a lot of work. I'm sure she counts on you for support.

 

[Agnapostate]

We are stippers, putting ourselves through school of course.

Stipper or stopper?

 

[editec]

Early in our history, education was mainly a private, free-market activity — no compulsory attendance laws, and no school taxes. That system produced the most literate, independent-thinking, self-reliant people in history.

Among an rather select group of the people, yes.

That's an excellent educational model for an 18th century agrarian society ruled by a gentry class.

Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school

source

Notice that compulsory education happened about the same time -- and in the same location -- as America's industrialization happened?

That's no coincidence.

 

[Agnapostate]

Notice that compulsory education happened about the same time -- and in the same location -- as America's industrialization happened?

That's no coincidence.

Precisely. Again, I've posted this crooked graph (I fail at image scanning) before, and defenders of compulsory, authoritarian schooling have said little to discredit it.

We should observe that the number of white males aged 16 in school prior to 1930 and beyond exceeded that of the number of white males aged 16 that were working, but not by a substantial amount. In the early 1930's, however, with more than a quarter of the population unemployed due to the Great Depression, the government was successful in passing legislation largely eliminating youth from the formal workforce, eliminating them as a source of competition for the multitudes of unemployed workers. Previous attempts to do this, such as the Keating-Owen Child Labor Act of 1916, were declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court. (See Hammer v. Dagenhart.) But this process was renewed once the Depression was in full swing through measures such as the 1933 National Industrial Recovery Act, which set a minimum working age of 16 in many industries. This second attempt to expand the Commerce Clause was again declared unconstitutional in Schechter Poultry Corp. v. United States. Not to be deterred, several components of the 1936 Walsh-Healey Public Contracts Act included federal guidelines prohibiting "child labor." The Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was the final nail in the coffin, and essentially established the current working age of 16.

The same quotation of Lawrence A. Cremin, author of American Education: The National Experience 1783-1876, is again in order:

[Factories] required a shift from agricultural time to the much more precise categories of industrial time, with it's sharply delineated and periodized workday. Moreover, along with this shift in rhythm, the factory demanded concomitant shifts in habits and attention and behaviour, under which workers could no longer act according to whim or preference but were required instead to adjust to the needs of the productive process and the other workers involved in it...The schools taught [factory behaviour], not only through textbook preachments, but also through the very character of their organization--the grouping, periodizing, and objective impersonality were not unlike those of the factory.

What's most striking is that whether it comes from the perspective of socialists (Bowles and Gintis) who condemn authoritarian schooling as preparing students for entry into a hierarchical and inefficient capitalist workplace that's rank with principal-agent problems or the perspective of capitalists (Gatto, the aforementioned Sheldon Richman of the Cato Institute) who condemn schooling as preparing students for rigid obedience to state mandates, all agree that it functions as a tool intended to create conformity to an oppressive environment.

 

[Agnapostate]

Once we have identified modern schooling as functioning as an authoritarian instrument of conformity and oppression, what is to be done?