What is our obligation to the poor?

[JakeStarkey]

I totally agree. K through 12 is free. You don't graduate from high school, it's your own fault. We KNOW why people in this country are poor, due to lack of education and/or desire to work hard. We do food baskets at christmas for the needy. Same people show up year after year. We all work hard gathering the food for 2 months, sorting it, hauling it, then have a benefit dance to pay for the perishables. All done WITHOUT government assistance of any kind. I'm wondering, why aren't the receivers of these baskets down here sorting and helping to organize this? But they can't even do that. We are doing it for them. Any baskets not picked up go to the Catholic church's food bank, which is run by them year round, NOT the government. I don't care how poor I would get and have been, I know how to cook from scratch, how to sew, how to grow vegetables. These same people who are so poor they go to food banks, always seem to have money for beer and cigarettes.

How very simplistic and inadequate an explanation for poverty and remediating it.

Really? She* is doing something in directly for the poor in her community.

*I think 2twsted4colorTV, i may be wrong. Sorry in advance if i am.

She is to be commended for her personal actions, which I should have acknowledge from the top. My apology. However, not enough Americans have her understanding of what needs to be done, and to many "Americans" basically say, 'screw the poor.'

 

[JakeStarkey]

The problem being.... the poor. Nothing is ever enough.

Food and water is not good enough... steak and wine is
Shelter... i give you the housing crisis of wanting more then you can afford
Health care... They want everything that the "rich" afford for themselves without limits.
Education... they get 1-12 for free.

I agree.... the basics....they rest.... work your ass off for.

I totally agree. K through 12 is free. You don't graduate from high school, it's your own fault. We KNOW why people in this country are poor, due to lack of education and/or desire to work hard. We do food baskets at christmas for the needy. Same people show up year after year. We all work hard gathering the food for 2 months, sorting it, hauling it, then have a benefit dance to pay for the perishables. All done WITHOUT government assistance of any kind. I'm wondering, why aren't the receivers of these baskets down here sorting and helping to organize this? But they can't even do that. We are doing it for them. Any baskets not picked up go to the Catholic church's food bank, which is run by them year round, NOT the government. I don't care how poor I would get and have been, I know how to cook from scratch, how to sew, how to grow vegetables. These same people who are so poor they go to food banks, always seem to have money for beer and cigarettes.

Beer and smokes are a necessity for the poor it seems.

Reform is absolutely necessary. Turning our backs is absolutely immoral and unAmerican.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sorry, guys, we don't live in 1800 or 1900 or even 2000. We live now, we live by how the Constitution has evolved, and that is not going to change and go backwards. And, no, the general welfare clause need not be an enumerated power. Some folks simply do not understand the Constitution.

 

[syrenn]

How very simplistic and inadequate an explanation for poverty and remediating it.

Really? She* is doing something in directly for the poor in her community.

*I think 2twsted4colorTV, i may be wrong. Sorry in advance if i am.

She is to be commended for her personal actions, which I should have acknowledge from the top. My apology. However, not enough Americans have her understanding of what needs to be done, and to many "Americans" basically say, 'screw the poor.'

Sad to say.... the more the poor demand...the more people say screw them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sorry, guys, we don't live in 1800 or 1900 or even 2000. We live now, we live by how the Constitution has evolved, and that is not going to change and go backwards. And, no, the general welfare clause need not be an enumerated power. Some folks simply do not understand the Constitution.

Read the damn Constitution. Congress and the federal Government are SPECIFICALLY LIMITED to ONLY those powers ENUMERATED in the document. You want more, pass an amendment. THAT is what the Constitution says.

 

[2twsted4colorTV]

The problem being.... the poor. Nothing is ever enough.

Food and water is not good enough... steak and wine is
Shelter... i give you the housing crisis of wanting more then you can afford
Health care... They want everything that the "rich" afford for themselves without limits.
Education... they get 1-12 for free.

I agree.... the basics....they rest.... work your ass off for.

I totally agree. K through 12 is free. You don't graduate from high school, it's your own fault. We KNOW why people in this country are poor, due to lack of education and/or desire to work hard. We do food baskets at christmas for the needy. Same people show up year after year. We all work hard gathering the food for 2 months, sorting it, hauling it, then have a benefit dance to pay for the perishables. All done WITHOUT government assistance of any kind. I'm wondering, why aren't the receivers of these baskets down here sorting and helping to organize this? But they can't even do that. We are doing it for them. Any baskets not picked up go to the Catholic church's food bank, which is run by them year round, NOT the government. I don't care how poor I would get and have been, I know how to cook from scratch, how to sew, how to grow vegetables. These same people who are so poor they go to food banks, always seem to have money for beer and cigarettes.

How very simplistic and inadequate an explanation for poverty and remediating it.

Yes it IS simplistic, it is one of the things we do. It is but a drop in the bucket, a Band-Aid. I believe we need to TEACH the poor to fend for themselves. Just providing everything to them: free food, free housing, free medical care year after endless year is not doing them any favors. Don't YOU want to be free and independent and self-reliant? I do. Every Christmas when we do the food baskets, I have to wonder what they do for the rest of the year. And I did not grow up rich by any means, nor my husband and we are no where near rich now. But we live within our means that we choose to work for and we are self-reliant and free. "Give a man a fish he'll eat for a day, but TEACH a man to fish he'll eat for a lifetime." There is a big difference between the two.

 

[syrenn]

Sorry, guys, we don't live in 1800 or 1900 or even 2000. We live now, we live by how the Constitution has evolved, and that is not going to change and go backwards. And, no, the general welfare clause need not be an enumerated power. Some folks simply do not understand the Constitution.

The Constitution is the Constitution. There is not evolving about it. The only way to evolve it is to amend it.

The problem is that the now is an entitlement driven society.

just saying.

 

[High_Gravity]

I don't think we'll ever not have poor people, we do a good job in the US taking care of our poor, in other countries I have been to the poor people are literally starving, I don't see too many poor people here with swollen bellies, in every city there are soup kitchens who provide free hot meals for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you just have to know how to get there, thats more than what most other poor people get in other places.

 

[Care4all]

It is not the job of the federal Government to feed, cloth and house the poor. IF a Government IS responsible it is the State Governments. You want the States to take care of people from birth to death petition your State to do so.

You want the federal Government to do it? Get an amendment created and pass it.

But I repeat, if YOU personally are not giving your all, your home your food your clothing your money to the poor, do not claim the Government should tax others to do it.

I have no problem with the govt taxing ME to take care of the neediest. that's all that matters. My vote will go towards a representative that will take that position...and if your representation is to NOT give a penny of taxes towards the neediest, then your rep and my rep and other reps will duke it out....let the best man win...and hopefully my representative will be against manufactured wars, or preemptive wars with no true imminent danger and vote against spending money on that....while your representative may support such and once again, all of them will have to duke it out and let the best man win...

I don't need an amendment to the constitution, so far...the general welfare clause has not been shot down by the SC....

I don't want my money going towards things like a statue of Thor in alabama, or some bridge to NO WHERE in Alaska, or even to the big dig in boston, or towards metro airports and believe this should be local taxes and not federal...so hopefully i can have a rep that does not support those things either....

but medical care for those who can not afford it, or food for those that are hard on their luck, or unemployment for those that lost their jobs, or medicare for seniors etc...I am all for MY income TAXES going towards those in need like the above...

if you don't like it, then vote for someone who takes your position.

sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...and just cuz ya lose, does not mean it is unconstitutional.

There is no general welfare clause in the Constitution. It is not an enumerated power it is an explanatory comment on the following enumerated powers. Or perhaps you can cite for a single law, a single Court ruling that has EVER claimed a general Clause as an enumerated power.

You want the Government to be your nanny? Create an amendment and get it passed by 37 States.

It's Not my problem, but your problem....RGS....that's just the way it works and as it stands, there is social security and there is Medicaire and there is medicaid and there is Food stamps etc...IF YOU want to stop those things that have been established for decades, then it is you that needs to challenge such, in the courts.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I have no problem with the govt taxing ME to take care of the neediest. that's all that matters. My vote will go towards a representative that will take that position...and if your representation is to NOT give a penny of taxes towards the neediest, then your rep and my rep and other reps will duke it out....let the best man win...and hopefully my representative will be against manufactured wars, or preemptive wars with no true imminent danger and vote against spending money on that....while your representative may support such and once again, all of them will have to duke it out and let the best man win...

I don't need an amendment to the constitution, so far...the general welfare clause has not been shot down by the SC....

I don't want my money going towards things like a statue of Thor in alabama, or some bridge to NO WHERE in Alaska, or even to the big dig in boston, or towards metro airports and believe this should be local taxes and not federal...so hopefully i can have a rep that does not support those things either....

but medical care for those who can not afford it, or food for those that are hard on their luck, or unemployment for those that lost their jobs, or medicare for seniors etc...I am all for MY income TAXES going towards those in need like the above...

if you don't like it, then vote for someone who takes your position.

sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...and just cuz ya lose, does not mean it is unconstitutional.

There is no general welfare clause in the Constitution. It is not an enumerated power it is an explanatory comment on the following enumerated powers. Or perhaps you can cite for a single law, a single Court ruling that has EVER claimed a general Clause as an enumerated power.

You want the Government to be your nanny? Create an amendment and get it passed by 37 States.

It's Not my problem, but your problem....RGS....that's just the way it works and as it stands, there is social security and there is Medicaire and there is medicaid and there is Food stamps etc...IF YOU want to stop those things that have been established for decades, then it is you that needs to challenge such, in the courts.

OR by electing the right people to Congress, as we are doing. You see dear if enough of US get in then your dream dies as it should. If all it takes is for Congress to pass a law creating it, then all it takes is for Congress to revoke said law. Unless you can provide evidence the Constitution demands for such actions.

See how that works?

 

[Baron]

One of the most important obligations of Christians is helping the Poor. Therefore it is necessary to help all poor people without any dodging or greediness.

 

[2twsted4colorTV]

Really? She* is doing something in directly for the poor in her community.

*I think 2twsted4colorTV, i may be wrong. Sorry in advance if i am.

She is to be commended for her personal actions, which I should have acknowledge from the top. My apology. However, not enough Americans have her understanding of what needs to be done, and to many "Americans" basically say, 'screw the poor.'

Sad to say.... the more the poor demand...the more people say screw them.

I have heard that "God helps those who help themselves." Well, I think each person should help themselves as much as possible. There was once upon a time (and I don't know if it still exists or not) a housing program called "House My People." You got a house at substantially reduced cost, a new house, but you had to put in so many hours in the building of it, supervised by the carpenters. I know, because my sis and her husband got one. She was laying floor tile, painting, whatever she could do. Husband, too. That was 35 years ago. Nowadays these people just sit back and let US build their house, sort their food, build their clinics. In fact when my sis helped build her house, she was about 8 months pregnant!

 

[Care4all]

There is no general welfare clause in the Constitution. It is not an enumerated power it is an explanatory comment on the following enumerated powers. Or perhaps you can cite for a single law, a single Court ruling that has EVER claimed a general Clause as an enumerated power.

You want the Government to be your nanny? Create an amendment and get it passed by 37 States.

It's Not my problem, but your problem....RGS....that's just the way it works and as it stands, there is social security and there is Medicaire and there is medicaid and there is Food stamps etc...IF YOU want to stop those things that have been established for decades, then it is you that needs to challenge such, in the courts.

OR by electing the right people to Congress, as we are doing. You see dear if enough of US get in then your dream dies as it should. If all it takes is for Congress to pass a law creating it, then all it takes is for Congress to revoke said law. Unless you can provide evidence the Constitution demands for such actions.

See how that works?

I actually agree with what you have said RGS, and voting in the people we want to represent our point of views is precisely how we end up changing things...

I did say, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. I know how it works and I know that I will not always have my way and I can live with that....it's part of the basics to a representative government.

It is unfortuante that we don't have a way to vet laws before they become laws on their constitutionality, and without bias....but the truth is we don't, and the way the system works is they become law, and then they are challenged in the courts....

Care

 

[syrenn]

She is to be commended for her personal actions, which I should have acknowledge from the top. My apology. However, not enough Americans have her understanding of what needs to be done, and to many "Americans" basically say, 'screw the poor.'

Sad to say.... the more the poor demand...the more people say screw them.

I have heard that "God helps those who help themselves." Well, I think each person should help themselves as much as possible. There was once upon a time (and I don't know if it still exists or not) a housing program called "House My People." You got a house at substantially reduced cost, a new house, but you had to put in so many hours in the building of it, supervised by the carpenters. I know, because my sis and her husband got one. She was laying floor tile, painting, whatever she could do. Husband, too. That was 35 years ago. Nowadays these people just sit back and let US build their house, sort their food, build their clinics. In fact when my sis helped build her house, she was about 8 months pregnant!

That is essentially what Habitat for Humanity is. Sweat equity.

The problem i have is the abuse of the system that are in place. I feel they hurt just as much as they help. They foster a dependency and apathy.

Two of my biggest gripes are the food stamp program and section 8 housing. If we have a responsibility to them in giving them the aid.... then THEY have the responsibility to US to use it wisely and on food not junk. If they are being housed... then they have the obligation to keep it clean and tidy...and not just us it as a place to be a lazy ass and lounge around.... it SHOULD be the place they come back to after a long day of looking for a job...any job. And if not a job... community service.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Syrenn understands that a reciprocity exists in the arrangement, or that it should. Unfortunately, 10% of America is saying "fuck the poor" and trying to do just that (they will fail to succeed in that), while too many on aid are not doing their reciprocal best. I agree: no candy, no junk food and etc, abuse it and lose it, and so forth. I would like to see those on aid washing police cars, picking up public places, and generally being good citizens. The system is warping because of the bad weight at both ends of the system.

 

[Care4all]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

I just woke up, thinking about you and this question you asked, Avatar...and you know how I think when things like this happen to me.....that it is God, trying to communicate with me in my sleep....

A couple of scripture passes keep coming in to my head, that I believe could be your answer to your questions.

I don't have the specifics, of book, chapter and verse...(I'll try to get them later on)I just remember reading them...

One, Jesus healed the infirmed and sick, ON THE SABBath.... The Religious of his temple, were questioning Jesus for healing the sick on the Sabbath....this was AGAINST the rules of their religion....sort of how you seem to view the secular/gvt feeding the poor....it appears to be against the rules of your religion, for others, besides those in your church, to help the needy...your church leaders or you personally, think it should be the religious ONLY that goes out and helps poor and sick people and anyone else that does such is wrong....it breaks your rules....

Jesus's message in this sermon, is that IT DOES NOT MATTER and DOES NOT BREAK God's rules to not work on the Sabbath when you are doing God's will...the pharisees, were holding on to some RULE about the sabbath, while they were willing to let the sick die and not be healed, just because it was the Sabbath....regardless of the GOOD that Jesus was accomplishing through His healings.

This is what i see when you appear to say it is wrong for our government of the people, to be compassionate and help the poor, sick and neediest...you keep implying it is not their job to do such or it is wrong for them to do such and that this is the obligation of the individual blah blah blah....you remind me of the Pharisees....trying to stick to some rule that they have MADE UP THEMSELVES, and saying it was God's rule....(honoring the Sabbath), while they were willing to let God's child, DIE and not be healed.... Jesus SHOWED them, they were WRONG and it was not God's will, but their own convoluted minds that made honoring the Sabbath meaning to mean, not healing the sick, or other religious words to mean not helping a bloody samaratan man left for dead...and to pass on by...

This is what I see you trying to justify...taking your religion and trying to twist it in to meaning that we should not let our govt help the needy or the poor...

Any GOOD being done is GOOD, and God uses both believers, and unbelievers and governments and the wealthy and the poor, and our leaders to bring His good will, in to fruition....to limit God to just what the individual can do is simply wrong, imho....

And the second parable that relates to this is the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, when Christ gathered the NATIONS before Him on judgement day....the supposed religious question WHEN did they not feed Him, or clothe Him etc? (similar to you not willing to allow our govt to feed the hungry etc) They acted as if they had no idea that they even turned people away from their help...yet you are willing to turn people away from help, just because it is the Nation helping them and not a religious individual....(that's how you come off)

And Christ told theses people from these Nations...that how they treated the least among us, was how they treated HIM.


Avatar, do good in all that you do, not just you as an individual, but you, as a member of a Nation, and as a member of a religious group, and as a son to your mother and father, and as husband to your new bride etc etc etc...

Look at each individual in need, as it being Jesus himself in need, look at those in prison, as if it was Jesus himself in prison, look at those that are sick, as if it was Jesus that was sick.....would you really deny Jesus help just because the help was coming from a Nation?

 

[Newby]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

I just woke up, thinking about you and this question you asked, Avatar...and you know how I think when things like this happen to me.....that it is God, trying to communicate with me in my sleep....

A couple of scripture passes keep coming in to my head, that I believe could be your answer to your questions.

I don't have the specifics, of book, chapter and verse...(I'll try to get them later on)I just remember reading them...

One, Jesus healed the infirmed and sick, ON THE SABBath.... The Religious of his temple, were questioning Jesus for healing the sick on the Sabbath....this was AGAINST the rules of their religion....sort of how you seem to view the secular/gvt feeding the poor....it appears to be against the rules of your religion, for others, besides those in your church, to help the needy...your church leaders or you personally, think it should be the religious ONLY that goes out and helps poor and sick people and anyone else that does such is wrong....it breaks your rules....

Jesus's message in this sermon, is that IT DOES NOT MATTER and DOES NOT BREAK God's rules to not work on the Sabbath when you are doing God's will...the pharisees, were holding on to some RULE about the sabbath, while they were willing to let the sick die and not be healed, just because it was the Sabbath....regardless of the GOOD that Jesus was accomplishing through His healings.

This is what i see when you appear to say it is wrong for our government of the people, to be compassionate and help the poor, sick and neediest...you keep implying it is not their job to do such or it is wrong for them to do such and that this is the obligation of the individual blah blah blah....you remind me of the Pharisees....trying to stick to some rule that they have MADE UP THEMSELVES, and saying it was God's rule....(honoring the Sabbath), while they were willing to let God's child, DIE and not be healed.... Jesus SHOWED them, they were WRONG and it was not God's will, but their own convoluted minds that made honoring the Sabbath meaning to mean, not healing the sick, or other religious words to mean not helping a bloody samaratan man left for dead...and to pass on by...

This is what I see you trying to justify...taking your religion and trying to twist it in to meaning that we should not let our govt help the needy or the poor...

Any GOOD being done is GOOD, and God uses both believers, and unbelievers and governments and the wealthy and the poor, and our leaders to bring His good will, in to fruition....to limit God to just what the individual can do is simply wrong, imho....

And the second parable that relates to this is the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, when Christ gathered the NATIONS before Him on judgement day....the supposed religious question WHEN did they not feed Him, or clothe Him etc? (similar to you not willing to allow our govt to feed the hungry etc) They acted as if they had no idea that they even turned people away from their help...yet you are willing to turn people away from help, just because it is the Nation helping them and not a religious individual....(that's how you come off)

And Christ told theses people from these Nations...that how they treated the least among us, was how they treated HIM.


Avatar, do good in all that you do, not just you as an individual, but you, as a member of a Nation, and as a member of a religious group, and as a son to your mother and father, and as husband to your new bride etc etc etc...

Look at each individual in need, as it being Jesus himself in need, look at those in prison, as if it was Jesus himself in prison, look at those that are sick, as if it was Jesus that was sick.....would you really deny Jesus help just because the help was coming from a Nation?

I think it's a big mistake to think that you are following Jesus' commands by simply paying your taxes because by doing so you are part of helping the less fortunate. Jesus' words were meant on an individual basis, not a societal one. He expected YOU to give of your poessesions, money and time, not society as a whole. Granted, deeds do not bring about salvation, yet those who are saved should show that they are saved through their personal deeds. Good deeds should be a result of being a christian and being saved, not the road to it. It is impossible for a society as a whole to do this, society as a whole is not saved, individuals are. It is individuals that show this through their deeds, and that is not by paying taxes to the government. You see everything as a collective, I see things through individual responsibility and liberty. If each individual was doing as he or she ought, then there would be no need of the collective or the government representing the collective to do those deeds.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I think it is a big mistake to think that Jesus would not support a We the People democratic majority using government to make our country and its people better.

 

[2twsted4colorTV]

Sad to say.... the more the poor demand...the more people say screw them.

I have heard that "God helps those who help themselves." Well, I think each person should help themselves as much as possible. There was once upon a time (and I don't know if it still exists or not) a housing program called "House My People." You got a house at substantially reduced cost, a new house, but you had to put in so many hours in the building of it, supervised by the carpenters. I know, because my sis and her husband got one. She was laying floor tile, painting, whatever she could do. Husband, too. That was 35 years ago. Nowadays these people just sit back and let US build their house, sort their food, build their clinics. In fact when my sis helped build her house, she was about 8 months pregnant!

That is essentially what Habitat for Humanity is. Sweat equity.

The problem i have is the abuse of the system that are in place. I feel they hurt just as much as they help. They foster a dependency and apathy.

Two of my biggest gripes are the food stamp program and section 8 housing. If we have a responsibility to them in giving them the aid.... then THEY have the responsibility to US to use it wisely and on food not junk. If they are being housed... then they have the obligation to keep it clean and tidy...and not just us it as a place to be a lazy ass and lounge around.... it SHOULD be the place they come back to after a long day of looking for a job...any job. And if not a job... community service.

I totally agree. You drive by any low income housing and they are totally run down, dumps, grass a foot high, garbage everywhere. You just don't take care of something you are handed to like you do something you had to work for. I don't care if you are poor or rich. Rich kids who are given cars they didn't have to work for don't take care of them, they know there will be another one to take its place. Same with the section 8 housing. they think they are owed. I just can't understand why a person would not want to be free and independent. We did everything in our power to keep from living like that. I just don't get it.

 

[Care4all]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

I just woke up, thinking about you and this question you asked, Avatar...and you know how I think when things like this happen to me.....that it is God, trying to communicate with me in my sleep....

A couple of scripture passes keep coming in to my head, that I believe could be your answer to your questions.

I don't have the specifics, of book, chapter and verse...(I'll try to get them later on)I just remember reading them...

One, Jesus healed the infirmed and sick, ON THE SABBath.... The Religious of his temple, were questioning Jesus for healing the sick on the Sabbath....this was AGAINST the rules of their religion....sort of how you seem to view the secular/gvt feeding the poor....it appears to be against the rules of your religion, for others, besides those in your church, to help the needy...your church leaders or you personally, think it should be the religious ONLY that goes out and helps poor and sick people and anyone else that does such is wrong....it breaks your rules....

Jesus's message in this sermon, is that IT DOES NOT MATTER and DOES NOT BREAK God's rules to not work on the Sabbath when you are doing God's will...the pharisees, were holding on to some RULE about the sabbath, while they were willing to let the sick die and not be healed, just because it was the Sabbath....regardless of the GOOD that Jesus was accomplishing through His healings.

This is what i see when you appear to say it is wrong for our government of the people, to be compassionate and help the poor, sick and neediest...you keep implying it is not their job to do such or it is wrong for them to do such and that this is the obligation of the individual blah blah blah....you remind me of the Pharisees....trying to stick to some rule that they have MADE UP THEMSELVES, and saying it was God's rule....(honoring the Sabbath), while they were willing to let God's child, DIE and not be healed.... Jesus SHOWED them, they were WRONG and it was not God's will, but their own convoluted minds that made honoring the Sabbath meaning to mean, not healing the sick, or other religious words to mean not helping a bloody samaratan man left for dead...and to pass on by...

This is what I see you trying to justify...taking your religion and trying to twist it in to meaning that we should not let our govt help the needy or the poor...

Any GOOD being done is GOOD, and God uses both believers, and unbelievers and governments and the wealthy and the poor, and our leaders to bring His good will, in to fruition....to limit God to just what the individual can do is simply wrong, imho....

And the second parable that relates to this is the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, when Christ gathered the NATIONS before Him on judgement day....the supposed religious question WHEN did they not feed Him, or clothe Him etc? (similar to you not willing to allow our govt to feed the hungry etc) They acted as if they had no idea that they even turned people away from their help...yet you are willing to turn people away from help, just because it is the Nation helping them and not a religious individual....(that's how you come off)

And Christ told theses people from these Nations...that how they treated the least among us, was how they treated HIM.


Avatar, do good in all that you do, not just you as an individual, but you, as a member of a Nation, and as a member of a religious group, and as a son to your mother and father, and as husband to your new bride etc etc etc...

Look at each individual in need, as it being Jesus himself in need, look at those in prison, as if it was Jesus himself in prison, look at those that are sick, as if it was Jesus that was sick.....would you really deny Jesus help just because the help was coming from a Nation?

I think it's a big mistake to think that you are following Jesus' commands by simply paying your taxes because by doing so you are part of helping the less fortunate. Jesus' words were meant on an individual basis, not a societal one. He expected YOU to give of your poessesions, money and time, not society as a whole. Granted, deeds do not bring about salvation, yet those who are saved should show that they are saved through their personal deeds. Good deeds should be a result of being a christian and being saved, not the road to it. It is impossible for a society as a whole to do this, society as a whole is not saved, individuals are. It is individuals that show this through their deeds, and that is not by paying taxes to the government. You see everything as a collective, I see things through individual responsibility and liberty. If each individual was doing as he or she ought, then there would be no need of the collective or the government representing the collective to do those deeds.

newby, I never said that I think I am following Jesus' commands by SIMPLY paying my taxes. That is following ONE of Jesus' demands but it certainly does not stop with only one command. I don't think Jesus' commands stop at an individual and do not include (me as an individual in) society, but if you have some scripture that has Jesus' stating that our own good will towards others should stop when I am in a society that I am a part of...please do so!

Those are your rules Newby, NOT the Lord's, in my humble opinion. You may think this is following Christ, but I believe it is the complete opposite of what you say Christ wanted us to be and do. When he asked the rich man to give up everything, there was no one individual that this rich man was asked to give up his riches for, he was asked to do such for SOCIETY, for the poor and needy in their society specifically. He was not asked or told to go out individually and help them with his own hands in this sermon....so, I truly do not know where you get your opinion above on what Jesus taught....but if there are specifics in scripture, then I would love to read them! Please share!

As it stands, we will have to agree to disagree sweetie!

care