What is our obligation to the poor?

[Wry Catcher]

Since I was born and raised, attended Grad School and my first job in LE in The City of San Francisco, suppose you tell me what are these "predictable surprises"?

Lawlessness.

LOL - this singular response takes me back a post or two, let me review my question for you:

Q. "Don't/can't you people on the Right think?

A. Lawlessness??! That's absurd and provides all the evidence necessary to prove not only do you not think, but you are ignorant to the nines.

Apparently you are unaware of the deteriorating crime statistics. That's what happens when a city lowers its standard of conduct and fails to hold its citizens accountable.

Apparently you're full of shit.

Oh, I am full of shit on a great many things, but you must have been one of the shitty LE's, for you not to know or care what has is going on there now.

Once again you post on issues you know nothing about. Of course that's what makes a good conservative - ignorance and bias.

 

[ding]

Lawlessness.

LOL - this singular response takes me back a post or two, let me review my question for you:

Q. "Don't/can't you people on the Right think?

A. Lawlessness??! That's absurd and provides all the evidence necessary to prove not only do you not think, but you are ignorant to the nines.

Apparently you are unaware of the deteriorating crime statistics. That's what happens when a city lowers its standard of conduct and fails to hold its citizens accountable.

Apparently you're full of shit.

Oh, I am full of shit on a great many things, but you must have been one of the shitty LE's, for you not to know or care what has is going on there now.

Once again you post on issues you know nothing about. Of course that's what makes a good conservative - ignorance and bias.

That was a really impressive comeback.

 

[Disir]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

Well, when you start looking at some of those that are in deep poverty you find people with mental illness or who are low functioning or offenders or some combination of all three. There are people with disabilities as well. This is not some simple matter of hand me downs and a food basket. There is often constant drama which can take place at 3 AM and some aggression that erupts into violence. Drug use.

I think there is this thought that all of the "poor" are able to function exactly like everyone else. Some can. Many cannot. So, you have to have the stamina to ride that out with individuals for the rest of their lives. You have to make sure they take medications and etc. That is a lot to ask of anyone because you will often have to put your own family second and you will eventually be involved in some outlandish drama. You will be lied to with flimsy lies. Lies that are so stooopid that you will think an 8 year old came up with them.....and, truth be told, that is what you may find yourself dealing with.

 

[Wry Catcher]

LOL - this singular response takes me back a post or two, let me review my question for you:

Q. "Don't/can't you people on the Right think?

A. Lawlessness??! That's absurd and provides all the evidence necessary to prove not only do you not think, but you are ignorant to the nines.

Apparently you are unaware of the deteriorating crime statistics. That's what happens when a city lowers its standard of conduct and fails to hold its citizens accountable.

Apparently you're full of shit.

Oh, I am full of shit on a great many things, but you must have been one of the shitty LE's, for you not to know or care what has is going on there now.

Once again you post on issues you know nothing about. Of course that's what makes a good conservative - ignorance and bias.

That was a really impressive comeback.

Its all you deserve.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

Well, when you start looking at some of those that are in deep poverty you find people with mental illness or who are low functioning or offenders or some combination of all three. There are people with disabilities as well. This is not some simple matter of hand me downs and a food basket. There is often constant drama which can take place at 3 AM and some aggression that erupts into violence. Drug use.

I think there is this thought that all of the "poor" are able to function exactly like everyone else. Some can. Many cannot. So, you have to have the stamina to ride that out with individuals for the rest of their lives. You have to make sure they take medications and etc. That is a lot to ask of anyone because you will often have to put your own family second and you will eventually be involved in some outlandish drama. You will be lied to with flimsy lies. Lies that are so stooopid that you will think an 8 year old came up with them.....and, truth be told, that is what you may find yourself dealing with.

Poverty in America has many fathers, too often blame is placed on the powerless, long before there is any attempt to understand how and why someone has failed to thrive in America. People like ding have no life experience working with those "deep in poverty"; to add to your post Disir, we must first look & see the person. That off course is the work of parents, teachers, counselors, eligibility workers and social workers, and too often of police officers and probation officers; all of whom lack the time and resources to focus on the client, and little if any to consider systemic issues which have allowed poverty to continue into the 21st Century in the most wealthy nation on earth.

There is no solution to poverty in America, but their are means to mitigate it. Unfortunately the divide among our political system has one side pointing fingers and labeling the poor as lazy, unwilling to work for their daily bread and seeking handouts; the other side offers fish to eat, but training someone to fish costs time and money; which has dried up do to fiscal irresponsibility, i.e., it is easier to blame the victim than to examine who, when and why someone is left out or choose to be left behind.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe it would be better to not be born at all than to be born poor?

No

Good answer. Better to have a shot, than no shot at all. Of course you are arguing for people to not have kids because their kids might end up being poor. That is your argument, right?

Yes. But I'm not concerned about the person that was never born because his or her mom was smart enough to take birth control until she could afford to have children.

Are you saying poor people shouldn't worry about being able to afford kids they should have as many as they can for the sake of giving those kids a shot at life?

Im not talking abortion. I'm talking about abstinence or birth control.

Now you tell me, what is your obligation to the poor? If your answer is none then shouldn't poor people think before they breed? Having and raising a kid is a big deal. They don't just raise themselves. So what is the Poor's obligation?

If people waited to afford kids, there wouldn't be many kids being born because it is human nature to push those things beyond the cognitive horizon. You meet your goals, now you have to set new goals. Money should not be the driver. Love should. Everything works itself out. They should have as many as they can afford to love.

Obligation to the poor should be handled in concentric circles. Family, friends, church, community, local government and federal government in that order.

Most people aren't thinking about affording children when they are in the process of creating them

Most people who drink and drive don't mean to kill anyone

 

[sealybobo]

What do you mean they work? Do they lower the number of people who are poor? Do they get people off poverty?

I think feeding the poor sends a message that they can have as many kids as they want. Maybe we should fix anyone who needs help feeding themselves.

Who are the poor people 20 years from now? I say they are fuck ups or children of fuck ups. Do you know what the kids will grow up to be? You guessed it. Future fuck ups.

Let's start calling the poor fuck ups instead of the poor because that's what they are. Either their parents shouldn't have had them or they shouldn't have had kids. Either way I didn't tell them to breed.

I don't have kids. Do you know why? I like having money.

I'm trying to be blunt to make a point Jake. Anyone who gets pregna nt next year did it to themselves. I didn't even get the pleasure of ejaculating so what is my obligation and who's fault is it that people are poor? Poor people are. Why do you defend fuck ups?

Sounds like you are arguing for eugenics.

Nope. It's simple. Don't have kids while you are living in poverty. Can anyone in America get out of poverty? Then anyone can have kids, once they get out of poverty.

If there were no public schools how would poor people afford to pay for private school? So while we have public assistance poor people don't need to worry about feeding their kids just like they don't have to worry about educating them.

You do realize that all over the world people with a much lower standard of living are churning out kids, right? Would you like to implement forced sterilizations and abortions to control the undesirables?

Are they collecting welfare? No one is forcing you to get sterlilized or have an abortion. But if you want that free money you need to get yourself fixed. And if you have another kid you aren't going to get any more money than what you already get now. People are free to do whatever they want.

People in 3rd world countries can raise a kid even though they are poor and they are not asking for welfare or foodstamps.

This thread is about our obligation to the poor. Really I have no obligation to the poor and if they didn't produce poor children we wouldn't have poor people in 20 years. They want to have things they can't afford. Doesn't that bother you?

Like I wrote before, that sounds awfully like eugenics to me.

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

 

[Avatar4321]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

I believe that electing officials who have empathy for the poor, aged, infirm and children is to do the work for the many not the few, as implied in the scripture; I also believe that the Callous Conservative set lacks empathy and lives by, I got mine, fuck the rest of you. The evidence is loud and clear by too many on this message board.

How does having empathy for the poor take care of them? I can have empathy till the cows come home but unless I'm doing something no one is being fed. I'd much rather see callous doing something to help than someone with empathy outsourcing their responsibility to a bureaucrat

Another spin that won't turn. Don't/can't you people on the Right think?

You need to stop thinking everything needs to be spun. The truth needs no spin. Empathy is worthless if it doesn't do something more than feel. And outsourcing your responsibility to the poor to politicians and bureaucrats will not solves the problems of poverty.

It's not a collective solution that we need, but individuals stepping up and serving with their time and money in various capacities

 

[ding]

Apparently you are unaware of the deteriorating crime statistics. That's what happens when a city lowers its standard of conduct and fails to hold its citizens accountable.

Apparently you're full of shit.

Oh, I am full of shit on a great many things, but you must have been one of the shitty LE's, for you not to know or care what has is going on there now.

Once again you post on issues you know nothing about. Of course that's what makes a good conservative - ignorance and bias.

That was a really impressive comeback.

Its all you deserve.

I bet you would like to give me more.

 

[ding]

Sounds like you are arguing for eugenics.

Nope. It's simple. Don't have kids while you are living in poverty. Can anyone in America get out of poverty? Then anyone can have kids, once they get out of poverty.

If there were no public schools how would poor people afford to pay for private school? So while we have public assistance poor people don't need to worry about feeding their kids just like they don't have to worry about educating them.

You do realize that all over the world people with a much lower standard of living are churning out kids, right? Would you like to implement forced sterilizations and abortions to control the undesirables?

Are they collecting welfare? No one is forcing you to get sterlilized or have an abortion. But if you want that free money you need to get yourself fixed. And if you have another kid you aren't going to get any more money than what you already get now. People are free to do whatever they want.

People in 3rd world countries can raise a kid even though they are poor and they are not asking for welfare or foodstamps.

This thread is about our obligation to the poor. Really I have no obligation to the poor and if they didn't produce poor children we wouldn't have poor people in 20 years. They want to have things they can't afford. Doesn't that bother you?

Like I wrote before, that sounds awfully like eugenics to me.

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

That is the very definition of eugenics.

 

[Anathema]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

NOTHING. It is,the responsibility of the INDIVIDUAL to support themselves.

 

[sealybobo]

Nope. It's simple. Don't have kids while you are living in poverty. Can anyone in America get out of poverty? Then anyone can have kids, once they get out of poverty.

If there were no public schools how would poor people afford to pay for private school? So while we have public assistance poor people don't need to worry about feeding their kids just like they don't have to worry about educating them.

You do realize that all over the world people with a much lower standard of living are churning out kids, right? Would you like to implement forced sterilizations and abortions to control the undesirables?

Are they collecting welfare? No one is forcing you to get sterlilized or have an abortion. But if you want that free money you need to get yourself fixed. And if you have another kid you aren't going to get any more money than what you already get now. People are free to do whatever they want.

People in 3rd world countries can raise a kid even though they are poor and they are not asking for welfare or foodstamps.

This thread is about our obligation to the poor. Really I have no obligation to the poor and if they didn't produce poor children we wouldn't have poor people in 20 years. They want to have things they can't afford. Doesn't that bother you?

Like I wrote before, that sounds awfully like eugenics to me.

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

That is the very definition of eugenics.

Not giving poor people free food is the definition of eugenics?

First, I would only fix mothers asking for welfare. They already have a kid so their breed will live on. Not eugenics.

Now if I suggested fixing their kids too. That's actually not a bad idea. You got to be real hungry to fix your kid.

I just mentioned fixing all pits because people who love pits act like I'm suggesting murdering their dogs. I wasn't suggesting doing that to every person on welfare but really if we're going to eugenics one group of people who will miss the group classified as welfare recipients? And they would be eugenicsing themselves. Don't want to be fixed don't ask for welfare.

 

[sealybobo]

Not every poor person asks for welfare so fixing welfare takers is not eugenixing the poor. But it would massively lower the birth rate and population. Good!

 

[ding]

You do realize that all over the world people with a much lower standard of living are churning out kids, right? Would you like to implement forced sterilizations and abortions to control the undesirables?

Are they collecting welfare? No one is forcing you to get sterlilized or have an abortion. But if you want that free money you need to get yourself fixed. And if you have another kid you aren't going to get any more money than what you already get now. People are free to do whatever they want.

People in 3rd world countries can raise a kid even though they are poor and they are not asking for welfare or foodstamps.

This thread is about our obligation to the poor. Really I have no obligation to the poor and if they didn't produce poor children we wouldn't have poor people in 20 years. They want to have things they can't afford. Doesn't that bother you?

Like I wrote before, that sounds awfully like eugenics to me.

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

That is the very definition of eugenics.

Not giving poor people free food is the definition of eugenics?

First, I would only fix mothers asking for welfare. They already have a kid so their breed will live on. Not eugenics.

Now if I suggested fixing their kids too. That's actually not a bad idea. You got to be real hungry to fix your kid.

I just mentioned fixing all pits because people who love pits act like I'm suggesting murdering their dogs. I wasn't suggesting doing that to every person on welfare but really if we're going to eugenics one group of people who will miss the group classified as welfare recipients? And they would be eugenicsing themselves. Don't want to be fixed don't ask for welfare.

Dude, you are 100% a eugenicist.

 

[sealybobo]

Are they collecting welfare? No one is forcing you to get sterlilized or have an abortion. But if you want that free money you need to get yourself fixed. And if you have another kid you aren't going to get any more money than what you already get now. People are free to do whatever they want.

People in 3rd world countries can raise a kid even though they are poor and they are not asking for welfare or foodstamps.

This thread is about our obligation to the poor. Really I have no obligation to the poor and if they didn't produce poor children we wouldn't have poor people in 20 years. They want to have things they can't afford. Doesn't that bother you?

Like I wrote before, that sounds awfully like eugenics to me.

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

That is the very definition of eugenics.

Not giving poor people free food is the definition of eugenics?

First, I would only fix mothers asking for welfare. They already have a kid so their breed will live on. Not eugenics.

Now if I suggested fixing their kids too. That's actually not a bad idea. You got to be real hungry to fix your kid.

I just mentioned fixing all pits because people who love pits act like I'm suggesting murdering their dogs. I wasn't suggesting doing that to every person on welfare but really if we're going to eugenics one group of people who will miss the group classified as welfare recipients? And they would be eugenicsing themselves. Don't want to be fixed don't ask for welfare.

Dude, you are 100% a eugenicist.

I only eugenic people on welfare. They eugenic themselves.

Id love to eugenic criminals too. Are criminals another demographic you want to save?

 

[Avatar4321]

Your obligation to the poor is more than your obligation to give money to a wealthy church.

Exactly. Most people do not grasp this.

It is a misconception that allows several major churches to rake in tons of money from their gullible membership.

Can you name a church that says your only obligation to give to the poor is through us?

 

[Disir]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

Well, when you start looking at some of those that are in deep poverty you find people with mental illness or who are low functioning or offenders or some combination of all three. There are people with disabilities as well. This is not some simple matter of hand me downs and a food basket. There is often constant drama which can take place at 3 AM and some aggression that erupts into violence. Drug use.

I think there is this thought that all of the "poor" are able to function exactly like everyone else. Some can. Many cannot. So, you have to have the stamina to ride that out with individuals for the rest of their lives. You have to make sure they take medications and etc. That is a lot to ask of anyone because you will often have to put your own family second and you will eventually be involved in some outlandish drama. You will be lied to with flimsy lies. Lies that are so stooopid that you will think an 8 year old came up with them.....and, truth be told, that is what you may find yourself dealing with.

Poverty in America has many fathers, too often blame is placed on the powerless, long before there is any attempt to understand how and why someone has failed to thrive in America. People like ding have no life experience working with those "deep in poverty"; to add to your post Disir, we must first look & see the person. That off course is the work of parents, teachers, counselors, eligibility workers and social workers, and too often of police officers and probation officers; all of whom lack the time and resources to focus on the client, and little if any to consider systemic issues which have allowed poverty to continue into the 21st Century in the most wealthy nation on earth.

There is no solution to poverty in America, but their are means to mitigate it. Unfortunately the divide among our political system has one side pointing fingers and labeling the poor as lazy, unwilling to work for their daily bread and seeking handouts; the other side offers fish to eat, but training someone to fish costs time and money; which has dried up do to fiscal irresponsibility, i.e., it is easier to blame the victim than to examine who, when and why someone is left out or choose to be left behind.

I agree but I think the political system gets to frame the issues. The argument is presented as if everything necessary is already in place. It's easy to place that blame because we all know people that are lazy as all get out and scam the system. Second, people don't have their IQs or mental illness tattooed on their foreheads. The arguments are never about whether a particular service exists or what is missing.

 

[ding]

Ive been thinking about it this morning and I was wondering what our obligation to the poor is. Im not talking about what we should outsource to the government or what the government should do. But what do we as individuals have a responsibility to do?

I keep thinking of the words of a hymn:

"We'll go to the poor like our Captain of old. And visit the weary, the hungry, and cold. We'll cheer up their hearts with the news that he bore and point them to Zion and life evermore."

I believe we as individuals have a duty and privilege to serve the poor. And that when we try to outsource those responsibilities to the government and to others, than we fail to give and recieve the blessings we could otherwise have.

What do you think?

I believe that electing officials who have empathy for the poor, aged, infirm and children is to do the work for the many not the few, as implied in the scripture; I also believe that the Callous Conservative set lacks empathy and lives by, I got mine, fuck the rest of you. The evidence is loud and clear by too many on this message board.

How does having empathy for the poor take care of them? I can have empathy till the cows come home but unless I'm doing something no one is being fed. I'd much rather see callous doing something to help than someone with empathy outsourcing their responsibility to a bureaucrat

I know what you mean. A lot of organizations that claim to help the poor are mostly helping themselves get rich. You need to know which ones are genuine. I give a lot of money to charities who are genuine, like the Freemasons' Shriner's (you know those old guys who drive miniature cars at parades) They do good work. they really help kids who are in very dire circumstances. They pay for expensive reconstructive surgery for kids who have suffered disfiguring burns and other injuries.

I also donate time and money to Beech House. It is a local charitable organization that gives food and shelter to victims of domestic violence. It's a place where a where a woman and her children can go to escape the cycle of domestic violence. Too many women stay in an abusive relationship because they feel like they have no way out. And when kids are involved, matters get even more complicated because the odds are that he will eventually abuse the children too. I not only donate money, I also let clients temporarily (a year or two) stay in some of my houses at no charge while they go to school and train for a new job.

It teaches them to help themselves.

Good for you. I give to shelter's for battered women too. I was one of the bureaucrats disrespected by the ignorant; I ran my agencies Domestic Violence Unit, wrote two and co-wrote one grant funded by VAWA administered by the US DOJ and managed the two I wrote. They funded in part or in full public and private personnel and training around our country on the issue of DV and its impact on women, children and communities.

In my spare time my avocation was coaching, baseball primarily but also soccer and basketball. I gave my time and money in terms of driving and equipment and wrote a grant which funded the Challenger Division of LL Baseball in my community.

And now you are a bitter political crony. Go figure.

 

[ding]

Like I wrote before, that sounds awfully like eugenics to me.

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

That is the very definition of eugenics.

Not giving poor people free food is the definition of eugenics?

First, I would only fix mothers asking for welfare. They already have a kid so their breed will live on. Not eugenics.

Now if I suggested fixing their kids too. That's actually not a bad idea. You got to be real hungry to fix your kid.

I just mentioned fixing all pits because people who love pits act like I'm suggesting murdering their dogs. I wasn't suggesting doing that to every person on welfare but really if we're going to eugenics one group of people who will miss the group classified as welfare recipients? And they would be eugenicsing themselves. Don't want to be fixed don't ask for welfare.

Dude, you are 100% a eugenicist.

I only eugenic people on welfare. They eugenic themselves.

Id love to eugenic criminals too. Are criminals another demographic you want to save?

Your picture is next to the definition of eugenics in the dictionary.

 

[sealybobo]

I know. It's why I know you aren't hearing me

Reminds me of when I suggest fixing every pit bull so we stop making them. People who love pits think I'm suggesting murdering them all. I'm not. Just stop letting them breed.

Now I'm not going to fix every poor person but I'm not going to give them money or food either. They did it to themselves.

That is the very definition of eugenics.

Not giving poor people free food is the definition of eugenics?

First, I would only fix mothers asking for welfare. They already have a kid so their breed will live on. Not eugenics.

Now if I suggested fixing their kids too. That's actually not a bad idea. You got to be real hungry to fix your kid.

I just mentioned fixing all pits because people who love pits act like I'm suggesting murdering their dogs. I wasn't suggesting doing that to every person on welfare but really if we're going to eugenics one group of people who will miss the group classified as welfare recipients? And they would be eugenicsing themselves. Don't want to be fixed don't ask for welfare.

Dude, you are 100% a eugenicist.

I only eugenic people on welfare. They eugenic themselves.

Id love to eugenic criminals too. Are criminals another demographic you want to save?

Your picture is next to the definition of eugenics in the dictionary.

Well I'm only interested in wiping out certain kinds of people.

A. Welfare recipients.
B. Murderers and rapists.
C. People who commit identity theft.

The identity theft people have a choice. Jail or get fixed.

Are you going to take up the cause for these people?