What is it?

[Foxfyre]

Zoning laws say you can't have a certain type of business in a certain ZONE hence the name ZONING laws it does NOT say you can make it illegal to open ANYWHERE in the city/state.

The people of a state can establish certain criteria. Here in New Mexico, for instance, it is illegal to operate a gambling casino other than on a legitimate Native American reservation or, in a very few special cases, on government property. (We have slot machines at the State Fairgrounds here in Albuquerque for instance, but they would be illegal anywhere else in Albuquerque or in other towns/cities in the state.)

Most states outlaw commercial gambling anywhere on any property. And it is their right to do that too.

Some states pretty much throw it wide open though they reserve the right for the government to regulate and tax it.

Prostitution is illegal in 49 of the 50 states.

Drinking laws and privileges for certain other vices for minors vary from state to state.

Marriage laws vary from state to state.

If Utah or Idaho or one of the other more conservative states wanted to outlaw strip clubs, they have every right to do that.

When the Village of Tijeras near here voted to ban pit bulls within the city limits, they had every right to do that. Almost every community has certain laws about how many cats or dogs are allowable in a household or what sorts of other critters are permissable on a home or business lot within the city. Almost all states have laws about what kinds of wild animals it is legal to own and what is not.

Such laws are almost universally based on the wishes of the majority of citizens in any state, city, village, etc.

When people decide that a law is oppressive or silly or counterproductive or whatever, they have complete right to lobby or petition for the law to be repealed or changed. If a majority agree with them or at least do not object to the change, it usually gets done.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Zoning laws say you can't have a certain type of business in a certain ZONE hence the name ZONING laws it does NOT say you can make it illegal to open ANYWHERE in the city/state.

The people of a state can establish certain criteria. Here in New Mexico, for instance, it is illegal to operate a gambling casino other than on a legitimate Native American reservation or, in a very few special cases, on government property. (We have slot machines at the State Fairgrounds here in Albuquerque for instance, but they would be illegal anywhere else in Albuquerque or in other towns/cities in the state.)

Most states outlaw commercial gambling anywhere on any property. And it is their right to do that too.

Some states pretty much throw it wide open though they reserve the right for the government to regulate and tax it.

Prostitution is illegal in 49 of the 50 states.

Drinking laws and privileges for certain other vices for minors vary from state to state.

Marriage laws vary from state to state.

If Utah or Idaho or one of the other more conservative states wanted to outlaw strip clubs, they have every right to do that.

When the Village of Tijeras near here voted to ban pit bulls within the city limits, they had every right to do that. Almost every community has certain laws about how many cats or dogs are allowable in a household or what sorts of other critters are permissable on a home or business lot within the city. Almost all states have laws about what kinds of wild animals it is legal to own and what is not.

Such laws are almost universally based on the wishes of the majority of citizens in any state, city, village, etc.

When people decide that a law is oppressive or silly or counterproductive or whatever, they have complete right to lobby or petition for the law to be repealed or changed. If a majority agree with them or at least do not object to the change, it usually gets done.

IMPOSITION of RELIGIOUS values on the REST of society!!!! That is my point!!!

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I guess it is just SOOOO much easier to outlaw activities that YOU don't rather than just not PARTICIPATE in those activities that you find objectionable.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

So tell me why not protect EVERYBODY'S rights by NOT legislating away rights. I have the right to go to a strip club and YOU have the right NOT TO!!!

 

[Foxfyre]

I guess it is just SOOOO much easier to outlaw activities that YOU don't rather than just not PARTICIPATE in those activities that you find objectionable.

Again, people of faith have as much right to lobby and petition the government at any level for the sort of society they wish to live in just as you have the right to do that. It isn't a matter of imposing anybody's values on anybody. It is a matter of being able to construct a social contract for the kind of society that a people wants. Why should you be able to impose what you want on THEM if most of the community doesn't want that?

If most people of the community do not want what the people of faith want, then it likely won't happen if you have an honest and responsive government. The Constitution was written to prevent a tyranny of a majority where unalienable, civil, legal, Constitutional rights are concerned. And it intended that there be no tyranny of a minority where social contract was concerned.

You have no unalienable right to have a strip club near your residence or place of business or even in your own town any more than a few people have the right to have one removed if most of the community wants the business there. That is something for the community to decide, and if you feel oppressed by the community decision, then you should be the one who moves someplace better to your liking.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I guess it is just SOOOO much easier to outlaw activities that YOU don't rather than just not PARTICIPATE in those activities that you find objectionable.

Again, people of faith have as much right to lobby and petition the government at any level for the sort of society they wish to live in just as you have the right to do that. It isn't a matter of imposing anybody's values on anybody. It is a matter of being able to construct a social contract for the kind of society that a people wants. Why should you be able to impose what you want on THEM if most of the community doesn't want that?

If most people of the community do not want what the people of faith want, then it likely won't happen if you have an honest and responsive government. The Constitution was written to prevent a tyranny of a majority where unalienable, civil, legal, Constitutional rights are concerned. And it intended that there be no tyranny of a minority where social contract was concerned.

You have no unalienable right to have a strip club near your residence or place of business or even in your own town any more than a few people have the right to have one removed if most of the community wants the business there. That is something for the community to decide, and if you feel oppressed by the community decision, then you should be the one who moves someplace better to your liking.

Of COURSE it's about IMPOSING your will on the rest of society what else whould you call it?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

So tell me why not protect EVERYBODY'S rights by NOT legislating away rights. I have the right to go to a strip club and YOU have the right NOT TO!!!

 

[Foxfyre]

So tell me why not protect EVERYBODY'S rights by NOT legislating away rights. I have the right to go to a strip club and YOU have the right NOT TO!!!

I have at no point suggested, implied, or hinted that you did not have the right to go to a strip club. All I said is that people have the right to live their lives as they choose and, so long as it does not violate the rights of others, to order their society in a way that is pleasing to them. And if the people don't want a strip club in their community, they have the right to vote no strip clubs right along with no tall signs or no street vending. no door to door sales. no garish colors mixed in with the earth tones. no ice cream cones eaten outside on public walks (Carmel CA) or no skateboarding in City Square (Albuquerque). And you don't have the right to be a little dictator and tell them that they have to allow one because you want one.

However, if there are more of you than there are of them, you have the same right to petition zoning to allow a strip club, and you will prevail. Would you look at that as you imposing your values on them?

If you have ever lived in a place with no zoning and/or no social contract, you would understand why certain aesthetics are important. I can assure you that you wouldn't have liked it. The social contract never pleases everybody, but no structure or order at all pleases practically nobody and almost always results in everybody's rights being infringed.

It is not a matter of legislating away rights. That would be illegal. It is a matter of respecting people's right to live as they choose so long as they do not violate the right of others. There is no right to have a strip club or any other form of business at your disposal.

 

[Avatar4321]

So tell me why not protect EVERYBODY'S rights by NOT legislating away rights. I have the right to go to a strip club and YOU have the right NOT TO!!!

You have a right to go to a strip club? Did i miss the part of any constitution that gives people a right to even have a strip club?

What exactly do you think is a right? Because all rights come with responsibilities. I dont see a matching responsibility there. Could you tell me what it is?

 

[Foxfyre]

So tell me why not protect EVERYBODY'S rights by NOT legislating away rights. I have the right to go to a strip club and YOU have the right NOT TO!!!

You have a right to go to a strip club? Did i miss the part of any constitution that gives people a right to even have a strip club?

What exactly do you think is a right? Because all rights come with responsibilities. I dont see a matching responsibility there. Could you tell me what it is?

Well our friend is conducting a perfectly civil debate and is actually focused on the subject. I appreciate that a LOT even though we haven't been able to agree on this.

I don't see the rationale for why people of faith petitioning their government is somehow more oppressive or trying to force their will on others any more than environmentalists or anti-war protesters or pro choice folks or anti fast food types or save the whales people are trying to force their will on others.

If we cannot petititon the goverment to pass the laws and set policy that we believe to be good, right, and productive, how will the government ever represent us?

Or maybe some think people of faith are such second class citizens that they have no right to be heard or to have the desires of their hearts addressed?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

It's pretty simple think of our rights as a nice clean pool of water that we ALL want to rest in on a hot summer day. Now think of laws as a cup of water that is TAKEN AWAY from that nice cool pool of water. Perhaps I am in the shallow end cuz I don't swim well so as the water level drops I start to notice it first suddenly after cups and cups of water are taken out only my toes are covered, I am not happy. Now you still have water up to your waist but you can't enjoy ALL the rights you used to because the pool has been emptied by ALL THOSE LAWS! Why wouldn't you want to keep that pool as full as possible for EVERY AMERICAN to enjoy? After all you can get out any time.

 

[Cecilie1200]

zoning laws say you can't have a certain type of business in a certain zone hence the name zoning laws it does not say you can make it illegal to open anywhere in the city/state.

where do you live, that it's illegal to have a strip club anywhere in the state?

idaho!

A cursory search of the Internet tells me that Idaho does have topless clubs, so I'm confused as to what you're talking about.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Zoning laws say you can't have a certain type of business in a certain ZONE hence the name ZONING laws it does NOT say you can make it illegal to open ANYWHERE in the city/state.

The people of a state can establish certain criteria. Here in New Mexico, for instance, it is illegal to operate a gambling casino other than on a legitimate Native American reservation or, in a very few special cases, on government property. (We have slot machines at the State Fairgrounds here in Albuquerque for instance, but they would be illegal anywhere else in Albuquerque or in other towns/cities in the state.)

Most states outlaw commercial gambling anywhere on any property. And it is their right to do that too.

Some states pretty much throw it wide open though they reserve the right for the government to regulate and tax it.

Prostitution is illegal in 49 of the 50 states.

Drinking laws and privileges for certain other vices for minors vary from state to state.

Marriage laws vary from state to state.

If Utah or Idaho or one of the other more conservative states wanted to outlaw strip clubs, they have every right to do that.

When the Village of Tijeras near here voted to ban pit bulls within the city limits, they had every right to do that. Almost every community has certain laws about how many cats or dogs are allowable in a household or what sorts of other critters are permissable on a home or business lot within the city. Almost all states have laws about what kinds of wild animals it is legal to own and what is not.

Such laws are almost universally based on the wishes of the majority of citizens in any state, city, village, etc.

When people decide that a law is oppressive or silly or counterproductive or whatever, they have complete right to lobby or petition for the law to be repealed or changed. If a majority agree with them or at least do not object to the change, it usually gets done.

IMPOSITION of RELIGIOUS values on the REST of society!!!! That is my point!!!

Yes, because the only possible reasons the people of a state could have for choosing not to legalize certain behaviors and businesses MUST be religious. There are no other reasons in the world to object to gambling, prostitution, etc.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So tell me why not protect EVERYBODY'S rights by NOT legislating away rights. I have the right to go to a strip club and YOU have the right NOT TO!!!

You only have the right to go to a strip club if strip clubs are legal in your state. And your state has every right under the law to decide that strip clubs are undesirable.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I guess it is just SOOOO much easier to outlaw activities that YOU don't rather than just not PARTICIPATE in those activities that you find objectionable.

Again, people of faith have as much right to lobby and petition the government at any level for the sort of society they wish to live in just as you have the right to do that. It isn't a matter of imposing anybody's values on anybody. It is a matter of being able to construct a social contract for the kind of society that a people wants. Why should you be able to impose what you want on THEM if most of the community doesn't want that?

If most people of the community do not want what the people of faith want, then it likely won't happen if you have an honest and responsive government. The Constitution was written to prevent a tyranny of a majority where unalienable, civil, legal, Constitutional rights are concerned. And it intended that there be no tyranny of a minority where social contract was concerned.

You have no unalienable right to have a strip club near your residence or place of business or even in your own town any more than a few people have the right to have one removed if most of the community wants the business there. That is something for the community to decide, and if you feel oppressed by the community decision, then you should be the one who moves someplace better to your liking.

Of COURSE it's about IMPOSING your will on the rest of society what else whould you call it?

Who gave you the right to arbitrarily impose anarchy as the only moral standard? Human society is all about choosing one standard of behavior over another as the law by which everyone lives. In a good situation, that standard will be chosen to coincide with the will of as many people as possible.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's pretty simple think of our rights as a nice clean pool of water that we ALL want to rest in on a hot summer day. Now think of laws as a cup of water that is TAKEN AWAY from that nice cool pool of water. Perhaps I am in the shallow end cuz I don't swim well so as the water level drops I start to notice it first suddenly after cups and cups of water are taken out only my toes are covered, I am not happy. Now you still have water up to your waist but you can't enjoy ALL the rights you used to because the pool has been emptied by ALL THOSE LAWS! Why wouldn't you want to keep that pool as full as possible for EVERY AMERICAN to enjoy? After all you can get out any time.

Yes, that's exactly how it feels when some think it is within their authority and jurisdiction to whittle away our unalienable, civil, legal, and Constitutional rights.

But if you look at it another way, everybody is enjoying that nice clean pool of water and agree to keep it that way. Then somebody shows up who decides it is too much trouble to take his leftover coffee or mixed drink or whatever somewhere else to dispose of it, so he dumps it into his area of the pool. Once or twice won't make much difference, but if there is then more and more, pretty soon the pool won't be nice and clean and pleasant for everybody else any more. That's how it feels to people who want a certain environment and way of life in their community when a few want to introduce elements that change the appearance, character, and atmosphere of a place.

Sometimes change makes little or no difference. Sometimes it is good. And sometimes it isn't. But a society should be able to organize itself however it wishes to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

You only have the right to go to a strip club if strip clubs are legal in your state.

By that reasoning, you only have a right to self-determination, life or property, if the law says so.

 

[Foxfyre]

You only have the right to go to a strip club if strip clubs are legal in your state.

By that reasoning, you only have a right to self-determination, life or property, if the law says so.

While I am a hard nosed Lockean property rights type, I disagree that making certain things illegal for all, unless it does prohibit an unalienable right, interferes with our right to self-determination. There is no unalienable right to anarchy as that would put everybody's rights in jeopardy.

There is no unalienable right to run a drug ring or organize pit bull fights or engage in other antisocial or unacceptable enterprise. So long as the law applies equally to all citizens of the state or county or local community, I don't see a violation of rights when the social contract includes a ban on certain kinds of undesirable enterprise. The state or local law cannot tell you that you cannot take drugs or organize dog fights, but it can say that such will not be legal here.

Some states or communities choose not to have strip clubs, gambling casinos, etc. and as long as that applies to everybody, I don't have a problem with that. It isn't dictating that going to strip clubs or gambling casinos is any kind of crime. It only dictates that we don't want those here. Almost all American communities have ordinances prohibiting a XXX movie theater or adult bookstore or a bar, etc. being located near a school. It is the same kind of principle.

Here in New Mexico the state allows gambling casinos on the Indian reservations but they are illegal on all other private property. To me that is an unconstitutional concept as it does not treat all the citizens of the state equally. If everybody had equal opportunity to get in on it, then it might not be a great situation for the people of New Mexico, but at least it would be fair. And it would also be fair to make it illegal for everybody.