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Bloke, I wouldn't listen to all of these Americans. They are conservatives mostly, and happen to be extremely rude. You were just wondering, and of course California Girl, who perpetually has a large, prickly rod up her ass, can't remain civil even when the OP states there is no arguement being seeked, only information.
I will say this: As an american, I think it is great that we are pushing for healthcare. There tons of people, mostly on the low-end of things, that don't have money for private health insurance, and get left out. People are mad about it because they don't want to care about anybody but themselves. They think it is 'unfair' to lend their income to anyone, under the guise that it is 'socialist,' but really, they are just selfish and use socialism as a scapegoat to mask their true motivations for denying allegiance to the cause. Of course there are going to be huge snags at first. It is a massive undertaking- to administer national healthcare to 280 million people, but Obama is trying it, and it is commendable, and he should be applauded for his valiant effort, but no, all these conservatives care about is THEM. THEIR money. How they work SO hard everyday and bla bla bla, wha wha wha. I think it's cool we are doing it. It will be expensive, but we'll be a better country for it.
It's funny the CG lists all of these negative contingencies of abuse, such as abortions. Yeah, of course SOME of the healthcare will go towards things none of us would wish to pay for, but most of it will go to people who really need, yet because a few will get things we don't like, we should abolish the whole thing? Again, this kind of illogical sentiment only leads to the conclusion that there are selfish underpinnings to their motives for dissent, and as such, it shouldn't really be respected, because we should be looking out for eachother, especially when it comes to healthcare, if we are to call ourselves a 'great country.'
The NHS and the Canadian single payer system have failed on such a great level, all I can say is the OP is full of freaking shit.
And it's not free. You take the 50% plus tax rates and deal with it. And that's just the beginner....
My freedom to choose whether I want to purchase health insurance or not.
No, your freedom to choose is still there. Only difference is now when you choose not to insure yourself you get fined for it, because your "choice" is affecting everyone who does pay their way.
So predictable. Why do you assume that if someone doesn't have insurance that they don't have to pay for service?
Either you have such a hard on for Obamacare that you refuse to see the bigger picture in terms of govenrment control of your life or you apparently don't care that government has that much control over your life.
To be honest, I can understand why the Brits look at us and wonder why we don't just have a system like theirs. They've grown up with it and see no problem with it. As an outsider, I see plenty of problems. Why should I pay for someone else to have an abortion - it's not a life saving procedure. Why should I pay for a childless couple to have treatments to have a child - that's not a live saving procedure. Or plastic surgery? Or gender reassignment? Or any of the plethora of crap that they do on the NHS?
Their NHS was a great idea. It is not workable in the US, because our nation is far bigger. It is unConstitutional. And... as has happened in the UK... what started off as a great idea has become a monstrosity that even the British know is broken but they don't want to face it.
The French, on the other hand, have a much more interesting system and, while again, Constitutionally, it would be tricky (possibly require an Amendment) but.... their system is one I would have been prepared to consider how we could make that work in the US. But.... it should be left to individual states and not the federal government to deal with. Because the Brits don't understand how our government works, I see no way that the OP can actually ever understand this issue.
I agree.
But containing costs must, at first, be job one.
All one has to do is look at medicare and see why our government has absolutely no business in this industry. Can you imagine the breadth of fraud and wastes? I cannot. It would be in the $100 bn's. every year.
The British NHS is rife with fraud and waste.... That's one of the major problems with it. .
<------US GovernmentNo, your freedom to choose is still there. Only difference is now when you choose not to insure yourself you get fined for it, because your "choice" is affecting everyone who does pay their way.
So predictable. Why do you assume that if someone doesn't have insurance that they don't have to pay for service?
Either you have such a hard on for Obamacare that you refuse to see the bigger picture in terms of govenrment control of your life or you apparently don't care that government has that much control over your life.
You would think that people who complain about not wanting to "pay for others" would be happy that all those deadbeats are now being required to pay their fair share. But no, because it's Obama they will argue the "constitutionality" of the plan because they truly don't understand that Obamacare is a LOOOONG way away from a government takeover. If anything, it's giving insurance companies more strength.
Get a grip and a clue.
So predictable. Why do you assume that if someone doesn't have insurance that they don't have to pay for service?
Either you have such a hard on for Obamacare that you refuse to see the bigger picture in terms of govenrment control of your life or you apparently don't care that government has that much control over your life.
You would think that people who complain about not wanting to "pay for others" would be happy that all those deadbeats are now being required to pay their fair share. But no, because it's Obama they will argue the "constitutionality" of the plan because they truly don't understand that Obamacare is a LOOOONG way away from a government takeover. If anything, it's giving insurance companies more strength.
Get a grip and a clue.
Your problem is your false presumption and your close mindedness. Again, why do you assume that just because someone doesn't have insurance, they don't have to pay for service?
The constitutinality issue is not in regards to a takeover of health care at this point (though that would be unconstitutinal too). The question is can government require you to purchase health insurance under threat of a tax for non-conpliance. Perhaps people need a more extreme yet very analogous scenario to illustrate this point.
Pretend health care was not the overriding issue. Maybe instead the issue is the environment. Maybe Obama believes our energy consumption has reached a crisis point and major new mandates on how and what energy we can use need to be implemented. As part of this energy consumption overhaul there is a mandate that says everyone has to buy a Prius or face a penalty tax. Still think that's a level of power our government should have?
And of course this a deal for the insurance companies. I imagine you would be doing the dance of joy yourself if you were a business owner and they government made people buy your product.
Again, why do you assume that just because someone doesn't have insurance, they don't have to pay for service?
My big problem with it is that its a foot in the door for the Govt takeover of healthcare. It also has no reform in it at all. It does nothing to address the problem. The cost.
Imagine your HC being run by our Govt.
Our Govt that has never run anything cheaply or well.
Our govt where red tape and mountains of paperwork abound.
Our Govt where waste and fraud run rampant and theres a beurocrat around every corner.
You will be dieing as your filling out that last form and getting through that last bit of red tape.
I can't even imagine the cost to those who pay the taxes to support another huge entitlement. Jeeze.
Your analogy is ridiculous. No one is dying because they can't afford a Prius.
Of course they should have to pay for service, but how many people do you think can afford to pay all of their hospital bills if they don't have any kind of insurance and are hit with a major illness or injury. VERY few can.....which means that those costs for whatever treatment they do receive is passed on to the rest of us who do pay for insurance.
Conservatives complain about not wanting to support people and everyone should pay their own way. This mandate is actually getting people to have to pay their own way and what happens.....conservatives still find fault. It's a no-win situation for Obama and he honestly should have stuck with his original plan for single payer and ignored the impossible to please right wing extremists from the very beginning.
My big problem with it is that its a foot in the door for the Govt takeover of healthcare. It also has no reform in it at all. It does nothing to address the problem. The cost.
Imagine your HC being run by our Govt.
Our Govt that has never run anything cheaply or well.
Our govt where red tape and mountains of paperwork abound.
Our Govt where waste and fraud run rampant and theres a beurocrat around every corner.
You will be dieing as your filling out that last form and getting through that last bit of red tape.
I can't even imagine the cost to those who pay the taxes to support another huge entitlement. Jeeze.
That's why the public option would have been a good thing. For those (such as yourself) who don't trust the government to do it well and like their own private insurance, you would keep that. For others, who can't afford the "better" private insurance can go the public option route. And with the public option there offering a low cost alternative, it would at least put pressure on the private insurers to keep their prices in check, in fear of losing their customers to the cheaper public option. Everyone wins.
My big problem with it is that its a foot in the door for the Govt takeover of healthcare. It also has no reform in it at all. It does nothing to address the problem. The cost.
Imagine your HC being run by our Govt.
Our Govt that has never run anything cheaply or well.
Our govt where red tape and mountains of paperwork abound.
Our Govt where waste and fraud run rampant and theres a beurocrat around every corner.
You will be dieing as your filling out that last form and getting through that last bit of red tape.
I can't even imagine the cost to those who pay the taxes to support another huge entitlement. Jeeze.
That's why the public option would have been a good thing. For those (such as yourself) who don't trust the government to do it well and like their own private insurance, you would keep that. For others, who can't afford the "better" private insurance can go the public option route. And with the public option there offering a low cost alternative, it would at least put pressure on the private insurers to keep their prices in check, in fear of losing their customers to the cheaper public option. Everyone wins.
Is it really competition when government doesn't have to play by the same rules private insurers do?
The reason for the mandate is not because people are dying. You equated buying a product, which is a Prius in your example to healthcare, with insurance being the real life product. The mandate itself doesn't prevent people from dying, but having the product itself, does. Hence, relating owning a Prius to owning health insurance is a poor analogy. Like I said, no one is suffering because they can't own a Prius.Your analogy is ridiculous. No one is dying because they can't afford a Prius.
You're avoiding. Never a good sign as far as a legitimate argument is concerned. You really want to argue the reason for the mandate is to keep people who can't pay from dieing? What a load of shit. Now your basically making an argument that under certain circumstances it's okay for governmenet to require people to make private purchases. So what are those circumstances?
You started out by asking me what freedoms are being taken away. I told you. Now instead of arguing I'm not losing freedom you are trying to rationalize why this particular loss of freedom is okay.
Of course they should have to pay for service, but how many people do you think can afford to pay all of their hospital bills if they don't have any kind of insurance and are hit with a major illness or injury. VERY few can.....which means that those costs for whatever treatment they do receive is passed on to the rest of us who do pay for insurance.
Conservatives complain about not wanting to support people and everyone should pay their own way. This mandate is actually getting people to have to pay their own way and what happens.....conservatives still find fault. It's a no-win situation for Obama and he honestly should have stuck with his original plan for single payer and ignored the impossible to please right wing extremists from the very beginning.
Yes conservatives want people to pay their way, but they want their freedoms kept intact as well. Making people buy health insurance is not the only way to make people pay their way. Instead you based your decision on the premise that if something does happen to you and you need medical treatement one way or the other, you have to pay. Don't have insurance? Put it on a credit card, work out a payment plan, whatever. Just because I don't support a mandae requiring people to purchase insurance doesn't mean I think it's okay for people not to pay for service.
My big problem with it is that its a foot in the door for the Govt takeover of healthcare. It also has no reform in it at all. It does nothing to address the problem. The cost.
Imagine your HC being run by our Govt.
Our Govt that has never run anything cheaply or well.
Our govt where red tape and mountains of paperwork abound.
Our Govt where waste and fraud run rampant and theres a beurocrat around every corner.
You will be dieing as your filling out that last form and getting through that last bit of red tape.
I can't even imagine the cost to those who pay the taxes to support another huge entitlement. Jeeze.
The reason for the mandate is not because people are dying. You equated buying a product, which is a Prius in your example to healthcare, with insurance being the real life product. The mandate itself doesn't prevent people from dying, but having the product itself, does. Hence, relating owning a Prius to owning health insurance is a poor analogy. Like I said, no one is suffering because they can't own a Prius.
Put it on a credit card? Do you have any idea how much medical costs are for a week long hospital visit let alone something much worse (ie. cancer) that millions of americans suffer from at any given moment? You want them to put it on credit? And you wonder why our economy is in the toilet when you suggest people use credit. LOL. How many people do you even know with 100k+ credit limits? Let's try and come up with real world solutions.
Hi
I have a question on a subject that I am quite baffled on. I live in England where we have a public health service that is completely free at the point of delivery (the NHS). It is paid for out of taxation, government operated and available to everyone based on their medical needs. Private health care is available for anyone who wants it as well.
The NHS is the most cherished institution that exists in this country, and any political party openly calling for it's privatisation would be signing themselves into opposition forever.
So when I hear on the news the controversy that exists in the US about the healthcare reforms proposed by Obama (which actually appear quite modest in scope to me) I really can't understand what the fuss is about. Could someone please explain to me what it is that you fear in regards to these healthcare proposals?
I hope this thread can be kept civil as I am not here to start an argument. I just seek to understand the American mindset a bit more.
Thanks
Dave
The problem is people have been lied to about what the bill is and what it will do. When polled, people agree with almost everything that is in the bill when looking at each individual aspect of it. However, when asked about what is wrong with the bill, you hear fear language about death panels, doctor shortages and it being unconstitutional. They are parrots who don't understand the bill at all, but do understand how to repeat things they hear others say.
These are the same people who don't want the government involved in healthcare but are on Medicare themselves. It's ignorance and selfishness from people who just aren't educated and have fallen behind the times.
I do not fear "Obamacare". It will not impact me at all.
Firstly, what Obama has done is nothing like your NHS.
Secondly, your NHS is adequate - nothing more.
Thirdly, your beloved NHS is the fourth largest employer IN THE WORLD. For a tiny little island... Can you imagine what size a similar organization would be in the US?
Fourthly, the US has a Constitution. That document tells the Federal Government what it is allowed to do. Forcing Americans to buy a product or service is not contained within that document so his crappy idea to force us all to buy insurance is unConstitutional.
Fifthly, what the hell business is it of yours what we do?
1) Ok, but the idea is similar no? To make healthcare affordable to everyone?
2) Well it's done well to save my life in the past, as well as several friends and family members. Also, I don't believe the US has a life expectancy any higher than here.
3) Is that a bad thing?
4) Fair enough on that point. Can't say I understand the ins and outs of your constitution.
5) Why so tetchy?
