What is it that lead you to conservatism or liberalism?

[Gop guy]

Originally posted by Bern80
Sorry KL, but i gotta side with Gop guy on this one, to some extent at least. I think i can say this objectively because I don't consider myself a christian. I guess i am what one calls an ignostic.

Anywho, you yourself have defined a christian as one who is christ-like. To major issues of liberalism are the advocacy of homosexuals, admittadly more so then the right and pro-choice.

I think one has to admit that these to issues are in pretty direct contrast to the stance that christianity takes on both of these issues.

it is extrememly difficult to argue that someone is really trying to be christ-like would be homosexual and/or pro-choice.

That's all I was trying to say.

 

[KLSuddeth]

GOP Guy - did you read my last post to you?

 

[Gop guy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Pro-Choice is exactly that. It's believing that a person, in this case it's women, have the right to choose whether to continue a pregnancy or not. On the cover, this does seem to be a mainly Liberal issue, however, blanket statements like this are most definitely not true. I'm sure there are conservatives who are pro-choice just as there are liberals who are anti-choice.



While I certainly don't claim to be the 'majority opinion' of liberals, heres my take on 'seperation'. Religion, or spirituality, is a deeply personal thing. It's about your relationship with god, not your schools relationship with god or your governments relationship with god. Prayer should be an individual thing, not a forced group issue. This country was built with the concept of individuality, not to be a cult like mass of followers.



According to your bible, god loves everyone equally. He created us in his image, right? He also created free will. People are allowed to develop and be whoever and however they want to be. While the bible, a book written by men and not god, claims homosexuality is a sin, does not God forgive us our sins if we confess and repent? Liberals and conservatives alike confuse the issue. It's not about supporting sin, it's about supporting the ability of god's allowance of free will.



Please refer to history and see when and how "under god" was entered into the pledge.



We are a mixed culture. We have, and allow, beliefs of all type. There are conservatives who don't believe in god just as there are liberals who are quite religious or spiritual, right moi?



No personal offense taken, I just think that maybe you've got a bit more exploring to do so that you can be better informed.

Fine points, though I maintain my position, I have one new point to make.

Whenever it was entered into our pledge it's entirely true, we are one nation inder God.

-All founding fathers were all devout Christians

-God is acknowledged in ALL state constitutions

-American Presidents have also always invoked God as their guiding light, Kerry is trying to break this good tradition

Wasn't their a promise made to Abraham in the Bible about a "great nation" for him and his children?

I admit I may have some more growing up to do, but I think I'm pretty enlightened for my age.

I mean it's obvious that our generation is the most materialistic, superficial, and ignorant in history.

I like to think that I was spared from that.

THE RIGHT IS RIGHT

 

[Gop guy]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
So do you want to actually have a discussion or do you just want to be a knob?

Your last post was completely nonresponsive. Which part of my argument do you not agree with.

1. Is a fetus not "alive"?
2. Is stopping a life not killing?
3. Do we as a society not typically establish sets of extreme circumstances under which killing is accepted?
4. Are the current reasons proferred by the liberal wing of the pro choice movement to justify this killing acceptable to you? Will the liberal wing of the pro choice even admit it's killing? (revisit 1 through 3) If they won't, what is their agenda for twisting the truth?

I believe killing evil killers is justified killing, regarding your mention of capital punishment. Innocent children are a different story.

You and DL really go at it, it's fun to read, do continue....

THE RIGHT IS RIGHT

 

[KLSuddeth]

its DK - not DL

LOL - we may be married, but we arent one person




*just messin with ya*

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Gop guy
As you all know, I am a staunch conservative Republican.

What led me to conservatism?

My:
Christian faith (THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LIBERAL CHRISTIAN)
Love for this great nation
My sense of moral decency
My COMMON SENSE

Anyone else?

I found that conservatives had a better grasp of how economics worked.

I started to look at their politics, not caring anything ABOUT politics until I was at least 21 or so. (11 years ago).

When I found the Conservatives to be off base on some things as well, and saw politicians on both sides being corrupt compromisers, I ditched any perspective on politics.

About 6 or so years ago, I picked up a few books referencing the Constitution and Bill of Rights and such. I saw some unique perspectives I had never heard about before that condemn both areas of politics for going AGAINST what our nation was founded on.

I started reading the founding documents.

Since then, I have aquired more information on original documents such as the Articles of Confederation, and State Constitutions, and other things that reassured me that Republicans and Democrats in our current power structure are flip sides of the same corrupt, compromising, treasonous system that is designed to subvert our original freedoms and take the power from the people to secure political and monetary gain for the governmental structure.

Oddly enough, this is easilly traceable, I found, through the history of war powers acts, WW2, and the other major events that come up through history which allow an event such as the patriot act to steal a little bit more of the power of the citizen, and hand it over to government for "security".

IT has been through the constant predictable decline of all that this country was founded on, that I can see almost every day that my view as what would be called a "Constitutionalist" is affirmed, correct, and proven beyond any doubt.

When I combine this with a Biblical perspective of the end times, it makes PERFECT sense, and the entire world movent politically is like a transparent fish tank of predictibility.

This is how I came to hold my view, and it certainly does not appear I can change it.

 

[KLSuddeth]

I have some responses for the last few posts, but Im in the middle of home schooling my son so they are going to have to wait for a while

Just letting ya'll know.

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
GOP Guy:

Im finding this post extremely egotistical bordering on prejudiced, as well as completely un-researched and absolutely unfounded.

First, Im not a liberal - so dont even think about going off on a tangent about how my words are not worthy to pay any attention to. Here is a clue - They are. If youre truly as smart as you say you are, and as I believe that you truly are, then you will listen and listen well.

I know of what I speak. I know the bible up, down, front and backwards better than most because I minored in both theology and theosophy. Actually, thats not why. I studied it in college when obtaining my phd, but I KNOW it because of personal study and beleif in a higher power. Belief that every person is created equal and loved equally by God. Belief that Jesus Christ existed and IS the Son of God - belief that one day, the goodness of the Light of God can touch even the darkest corners of this planet.

Im so disgusted and tired of this judgement on who is a Christian and who is not, as well as the reasons behind WHY its being given in the first place.

What is a Christian? A Christian is one who strives to be Christ-like (literal definition if your looking at rootword and suffixes)...a person that accepts the reality of Christ into their heart and soul and honors that - am I correct? Yes I am.

How Christ-like is it of you to make such a blanket statemetn that so blatantly attacks and demeans the spiritual beliefs of another? Not so much.......or so it would seem.

Your spoke of your high standard morals. Why would you assume that a liberal or anyone else either would or would not have decent, good morals as well? And what gave you the right of omnipotence to be the one to even cast such a juggement and use the word Christian in the same sentence. This is what I would like to know.....really.

I would like to know it respectfully, truthfully, realistically and from your heart. However, I will say....do NOT try to take me to task on this in a crappy or childish way, son. You wont win. Speak respectfully, intelligently and with integrity and I give you my solemn promise that I will return that favor.

Amazing!

I've been reading this message board for about a month now, and this is quite possibly the best post I've read in that time.

While I'm in no way liberal, my mother is. She is also one of the finest Christians I know.

Amen, KL, and thanks for the post.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Yeah, I can see that. It just kinda seemed like apples and oranges to me.

For example (and yes this is true - not 'just' an example:

I have SLE - it can be a nasty, insideous pain in the ass of a disease. I was diagnosed at 15.
However, since I wasnt symptomatic or diagnosed till 15 years AFTER my birth.............see my point?

I think I see what she/he is trying to say....or even saying.
However, unless Im missing something, it apples and oranges.

But then again, Im not the brightest star in the sky yet today
(still not enough coffee)

:cof:

(Btw, thank you to whomever made the ref to Dr Hawkings - that man rocks. I referenced him ALOT in my dissertation. Talk about a mind....WOW - he is just incredible!!!!)

the onset of the disease being different does not negate the larger more general point that people with even serious diseases can lead valuable and fulfilling lives, which I believed was the main point. You're very bright. You know that!

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Bern,

Do you mean agnostic? Ignostic isnt a word - I dont think it is anyway....but agnostic is.

To be Agnostic simply means to question that any one person can prove that there is or isnt a God - or Supreme Being. It can also relate to one who is skeptical or noncommittal about the existance of God/Omnipotent Being but does not wish to claim atheism.

Does this describe how you believe?

I hope Im not coming off 'bitchy' lol - Im truly trying to understand what youre saying.

However, if you post a reply and I dont answer, I have gone to bed as Im exhausted....but I do look forward to continuing this tomorrow

sorry bout the misspelling, but the second half of that is pretty musch me in a nutshell when it comes to religion. I was raised in a very catholic family, but question it alot. I am a real all or nothing type of person when it comes to some things. Religion/faith being one of them. If one is going to say they are a christian I believe they should realy practice what they preach to the fullest according to the Bible. The Bible essentially tells us what christianity is. I don't think it is right to pick and choose which parts of it you want to adhere to i.e. homosexuality and pro-choice.

As an Agnostic I have no problem with homosexuality. I only have a problem with homosexual marriage because it is a christian term defining a specific union to be b/t a man and woman. In that sense I would have to say that even if a gay couples "marries" they are not married because of the biological and physiological constraints of the definition.

As you may have guessed I have major issues with the pro-choice crowd, especially those who claim to come from a religion that values human life above anything else.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
I found that conservatives had a better grasp of how economics worked.

I started to look at their politics, not caring anything ABOUT politics until I was at least 21 or so. (11 years ago).

When I found the Conservatives to be off base on some things as well, and saw politicians on both sides being corrupt compromisers, I ditched any perspective on politics.

About 6 or so years ago, I picked up a few books referencing the Constitution and Bill of Rights and such. I saw some unique perspectives I had never heard about before that condemn both areas of politics for going AGAINST what our nation was founded on.

I started reading the founding documents.

Since then, I have aquired more information on original documents such as the Articles of Confederation, and State Constitutions, and other things that reassured me that Republicans and Democrats in our current power structure are flip sides of the same corrupt, compromising, treasonous system that is designed to subvert our original freedoms and take the power from the people to secure political and monetary gain for the governmental structure.

Oddly enough, this is easilly traceable, I found, through the history of war powers acts, WW2, and the other major events that come up through history which allow an event such as the patriot act to steal a little bit more of the power of the citizen, and hand it over to government for "security".

IT has been through the constant predictable decline of all that this country was founded on, that I can see almost every day that my view as what would be called a "Constitutionalist" is affirmed, correct, and proven beyond any doubt.

When I combine this with a Biblical perspective of the end times, it makes PERFECT sense, and the entire world movent politically is like a transparent fish tank of predictibility.

This is how I came to hold my view, and it certainly does not appear I can change it.

Bush or kerry?

Protectionsism?

For someone so "forthcoming" I would expect you'd be delighted to expound on these topics.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Bush or kerry?

Protectionsism?

For someone so "forthcoming" I would expect you'd be delighted to expound on these topics.

I already have, for the umpteenth time, and you are starting to piss me off.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
I already have, for the umpteenth time, and you are starting to piss me off.

Where? Just type the two words required to answer or give me a link.

Get pissed. See if i care.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Where? Just type the two words required to answer or give me a link.

Get pissed. See if i care.

Fine:

1. Bush or kerry?

Neither.

2. Protectionsism?

You need to define YOUR understanding of it.

Main Entry: pro·tec·tion·ist
Pronunciation: -sh(&-)nist
Function: noun
: an advocate of government economic protection for domestic producers through restrictions on foreign competitors
- pro·tec·tion·ism /-sh&-"ni-z&m/ noun
- protectionist adjective

By this definition, absolutely.

For someone so "forthcoming" I would expect you'd be delighted to expound on these topics.

Not when you seem to want to just flame me all day long for any opinion I have.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Fine:



Neither.



You need to define YOUR understanding of it.

Main Entry: pro·tec·tion·ist
Pronunciation: -sh(&-)nist
Function: noun
: an advocate of government economic protection for domestic producers through restrictions on foreign competitors
- pro·tec·tion·ism /-sh&-"ni-z&m/ noun
- protectionist adjective

By this definition, absolutely.



Not when you seem to want to just flame me all day long for any opinion I have.

Asking you your viewpoints is not flaming, flamer.

Thanks for not answering the first one. I know you would prefer this Michael Petrouka, but considering that he will most assuredly not win, which of the two biggies would you prefer? Why can't you just tell us. Cuz you'd rather have Kerry than Bush? We won't persecute you'll, we'll just finally know your true agenda.

Yes. That is the correct defintion. Protectionism is a bad idea, for many and varied reasons. Thanks for answering that one.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Originally posted by TN_Independent


Amazing!

I've been reading this message board for about a month now, and this is quite possibly the best post I've read in that time.

While I'm in no way liberal, my mother is. She is also one of the finest Christians I know.

Amen, KL, and thanks for the post.

What an incredibly nice compliment - Many thanks to you

 

[fuzzykitten99]

This topic is funny because on the KQ Morning Show that I listen to here, they were talking about the same thing..what made them identify with one party or another.

I am going to answer the original topic of the post, and will avoid going off on a debate on abortion, as it is the only topic that I am profoundly against, and it's also the only one that makes my BP go up...and as I may be prego again (yay!) I do not need the stress. Plus my day hasn't been all the best. But it's a full moon, and there will be a tomorrow.

ANYWAY..enough rambling.

I am conservative because I finally started to actually listen to the conservative side, because the liberals pissed me off. I was one all my life, as I was told (indirectly) by the educational system and family influences that Republicans are bad people. No actual reason, as well as I was basically 'told' how I should think because it is politically correct. So anytime a member of the conservative side would talk, I would not listen, because I was always given the idea that they were stuck-up, racist, greedy people who want to control your life.

Everything started turning around when a friend and I went to attend the memorial service of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone. It started out really nice, and I even found the heart to talk to our Governor, Jesse Ventura. I am aquaintences with his wife due to my competing in many horse shows that she was in. I thought he was arrogant and didn't really want anything to do with him.

sorry, getting off on a tangent. My Jesse encounters are another story for another day.

When the beautiful memorial service started turning into a pep rally to get votes. Not support, not mourn his loss, but just get votes, I started looking at what the liberals represented. Their thirst for the limelight is readily apparent when they get any opportunity, no matter if it is appropriate or not. It's all about them. I then started actually listening to what the conservatives had to say. Something clicked. A lot, not all, but a lot of what their messages were, I agreed with because they were logical and made sense. Was I truly a conservative? Could it be? Was I moving over to the 'other side'?

I then took a look back at what I used to believe, and why. I believed at one time, all the stuff that liberals believe now, but I didn't have an actual reason of my own, other than the fact that i was basically TOLD to think this way, because it was the 'cool' and trendy way.

I am conservative because I think that people should be held accountable for their actions, and not by just gettinga slap on the wrist. If there are no penalties, or the penalty is not harsh, where is the deterrent to committing another crime, if not repeating the same offense?

I believe it is not the government's job to pay your way through life. If you want something, work for it.

I don't believe that it is the JOB of someone wealthy to take care of someone poor. If that is what they WANT to do, more power to them. But it is their money, so who are you to tell them what they have to do with it? People like Bill Gates have the right to live how they want without someone on the liberal side harassing them about how he should pay more taxes 'just because he can afford it". Leave the guy alone. He invented several things that helped revolutionize this country and our information technology, and basically how we communicate, as well as helped businesses grow. God Bless him. Now if he wants to hand some of what he earns, out to me, I won't stop him (who would? ) but it's his perogative and I have no problem with him keeping all his profits if he wants. It's his money.

I believe that changing the definition of marriage for everyone, only to accomodate a few, is destructive. Just because one little group wants something, doesn't mean that they should get it. There is alot of stuff that I want. But I may not necessarily get it. And if I don't, the worl will not end, and the sky won't fall. I have lived without it for this long, so I can deal with it.

Which brings me to another point. I also left the lefties because I was sick of the whining, bitching, and the whole "I am entitled to x or y!" or the message that it's ok to be lazy, as everyone else will pick up your slack. I was also sick of the liberals telling minorities that they can't succeed in life without government help. What a load of crap. ANYONE, no matter what background you came from, OR your skin color, can succeed without government help. Abraham Lincoln didn't have any formal schooling, but he gained knowledge through hand-on experience. Yet he became our 16th Prez.
see biography:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html

There are other factors in my becoming more conservative, but these are the main ones.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Testify brother fuzzyKitten! sister?

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Testify brother fuzzyKitten! sister?

sister!

anyway, there is another point that i forgot to add. Prez Bush visited MN last year, and he visited Fridley, which is near my home. I happened to only work 1/2 a day, and was fortunate enough to watch him come up University Ave. to go speak at a local business. Many people turned out to welcome him. then there were the few protestors. Most just held signs, and were ignored by the majority. There was one hippi-El trendo G. Beatnik that decided jumping in from of the motorcade with a peace sign would be a great way to protest the war. He got tackled by a few SS men and a few cops. He was promptly arrested, and was mocked by us the whole time they searched him, looking for any weapons or dangerous items. What a gooch.

 

[Gop guy]

That's cool, I hoped you mocked em good.