What is immoral about eugenics?

[JBeukema]

What are you idiots babbling about?

1) Presenting the fact of a matter is not bias

2) I never had my name changed

3) I already linked you to universities that teach every aspect of eugenics studies and applications.

Look at the roots of what Eugenics is; you'll find these subject taught at any respected university, although I would argue that whoever first popularized the above image failed to distinguish between eugenics proper and other fields that are oft found in conjunction with it as a part of the love of learning (geology) and the goal of improving the world and Man's condition (law, economics, and politics, for instance).

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What are you idiots babbling about?

1) Presenting the fact of a matter is not bias

Bias is loading the facts. By claiming that genetics is part of science, and part of eugenics, you are attempting to bias the opinion of uninformed people that eugenics is legitimate.

2) I never had my name changed

3) I already linked you to universities that teach every aspect of eugenics studies and applications.


Look at the roots of what Eugenics is; you'll find these subject taught at any respected university, although I would argue that whoever first popularized the above image failed to distinguish between eugenics proper and other fields that are oft found in conjunction with it as a part of the love of learning (geology) and the goal of improving the world and Man's condition (law, economics, and politics, for instance).

No you haven't. None of these is part of the mythical science of eugenics. If I attempted to link to Egyptology, Anthropology, Astronomy, and the Aztecs together to prove that universities believe that ancient astronauts existed you would call me on it. This is despite the fact that believers in that tripe site all of those things as proof that ancient astronauts visited the Earth.

On the other hand, if I wanted to claim that quantum dynamics, astronomy, fluid dynamics, and electromagnetism are all part of physics I would have no trouble doing so, and finding numerous examples of colleges that teach all of these things, and that they are part of their physics department.

Until you can point to a university that combines all of these fields into eugenics you have failed.

 

[Skull Pilot]

People practice eugenics every day.

You pick a mate based on looks and what traits your potential offspring may inherit. No big deal.

 

[JBeukema]

People practice eugenics every day.

You pick a mate based on looks and what traits your potential offspring may inherit. No big deal.

Exactly. How long are we to be so careful in the breeding of our chickens and cattle yet leave the wellness of our very own children to random chance or blind sentiment? Eugenics is the application of modern scientific knowledge to achieve the highest of all moral aims: to provide those who come after us with a better world and state of being. Why would I feed my child well, clothe my child well, and see my child well-educated, yet not also seek to see my child born well and healthy at the very beginning of her life?

 

[JBeukema]

I already showed you how the various fields that come together under eugenic studies and applications are taught in respected universities and are science by any honest application of the term. If you don't think anthopology, biology, and genetics are science, you're free to argue that point in front of the National Academy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I already showed you how the various fields that come together under eugenic studies and applications are taught in respected universities and are science by any honest application of the term. If you don't think anthopology, biology, and genetics are science, you're free to argue that point in front of the National Academy.

Astronomy, Egyptology, and Archeology are all legitimate fields, that does not make ancient astronauts a legitimate field. Like it or not, it works the same way with eugenics.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

People practice eugenics every day.

You pick a mate based on looks and what traits your potential offspring may inherit. No big deal.

Eugenics is someone else picking your mate for you, and then deciding how many children you have, and maybe killing those children because they fucked up.

 

[airborneandy]

They forgot to mention it in the bible.

Oh, really? What about God's ordering genocidal campaigns of extermination to make way for the Chosen People?

I guess when you're God, you can pretty much do what you want without having to answer to anyone. Something along the lines of what I heard growing up, like, I brought you into this world and I'll take you out of it.

 

[Skull Pilot]

People practice eugenics every day.

You pick a mate based on looks and what traits your potential offspring may inherit. No big deal.

Eugenics is someone else picking your mate for you, and then deciding how many children you have, and maybe killing those children because they fucked up.

Eugenics | Define Eugenics at Dictionary.com

eu·gen·ics
   /yuˈdʒɛnɪks/ Show Spelled[yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
–noun ( used with a singular verb )
the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

I don't see anything about someone else picking your mate or killing people in the definition.

 

[Hister]

People practice eugenics every day.

You pick a mate based on looks and what traits your potential offspring may inherit. No big deal.

Eugenics is someone else picking your mate for you, and then deciding how many children you have, and maybe killing those children because they fucked up.

Eugenics | Define Eugenics at Dictionary.com

eu·gen·ics
   /yuˈdʒɛnɪks/ Show Spelled[yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
–noun ( used with a singular verb )
the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

I don't see anything about someone else picking your mate or killing people in the definition.

Given the overpopulation of the world, one should have to pass an IQ test or be sterilized.
Skull, is that why you were sterilized?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Eugenics is someone else picking your mate for you, and then deciding how many children you have, and maybe killing those children because they fucked up.

Eugenics | Define Eugenics at Dictionary.com

eu·gen·ics
   /yuˈdʒɛnɪks/ Show Spelled[yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
–noun ( used with a singular verb )
the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

I don't see anything about someone else picking your mate or killing people in the definition.

Given the overpopulation of the world, one should have to pass an IQ test or be sterilized.
Skull, is that why you were sterilized?

I chose not to have kids. And I'm willing to bet my IQ is higher than yours.

You're a sheep and sheep are fucking stupid.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Eugenics | Define Eugenics at Dictionary.com

eu·gen·ics
   /yuˈdʒɛnɪks/ Show Spelled[yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
–noun ( used with a singular verb )
the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

I don't see anything about someone else picking your mate or killing people in the definition.

How do you think they discourage, or encourage, the traits they want?

What flaws are we screening for? That's the most uncomfortable question of all. Sometimes the flaw is a horrible disease. But increasingly, it's a milder disease, the absence of useful tissue, or just the wrong sex. If you think it's hard to explain where babies come from, try explaining where baby-making is going.

The growing practice of embryo eugenics. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine

What do you think happens to those embryos that are the wrong sex, or have the wrong eyes?

Eugenics was widely popular in the early decades of the 20th century, but has fallen into disfavor after having become associated with Nazi Germany. Since the postwar period, both the public and the scientific communities have associated eugenics with Nazi abuses, such as enforced racial hygiene, human experimentation, and the extermination of "undesired" population groups.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Eugenics

Genocide is a natural outgrowth of eugenics.

The idea sounds good, and always will. I never denied that, or even that it makes some sense. I just object to the fact that it will lead to other things that are abhorrent to any sane person. It is inevitable that people are going to think they know what they are doing, and that they are smart enough to know everything. People are arrogant, and always will be.

Eugenics is the moral equivalent of giving a child the trigger to a live nuclear weapon. There are always going to be dreamers that think they are smarter than the last bunch that tried this, and there will always be people like me to slap them down. I just hope that there are enough people like me to prevent this idea from ever taking hold again.

 

[rhet 2]

tell you what

let's pass a law mandating the euthanization of all liberals -- including those who accept murder as nothing but a practical way to control over-population and "improve" the human species --

and see how fast eugenics becomes unacceptable behavior (i.e., "immoral")

Funny how people always seem to excuse the murder of others they think less noble, less worthy than their own glorious butts

 

[antagon]

i just think the idea of denying the opportunity to procreate or even purging individuals from society is immoral.

humanity is advanced through our society, the domain of nurture. eugenics and the domain of nature are moot in comparison.

so basically you have hitler and pol pot pursuing an entirely inane agenda -- immoral and stupid.

 

[rhet 2]

i just think the idea of denying the opportunity to procreate or even purging individuals from society is immoral.

humanity is advanced through our society, the domain of nurture. eugenics and the domain of nature are moot in comparison.

so basically you have hitler and pol pot pursuing an entirely inane agenda -- immoral and stupid.

Funny how Hitler and the Nazis did exactly that.

But, then, they were convinced that only pure-blood Germans were good enough to live.

Question: exactly who would get the right to set the minimum IQ for those who live and those who die? The Liberals would dearly adore having that POWER to legally slaughter anyone who didn't agree with their ideology -- and then the Conservatives get power the hard way -- at gun point -- because they refuse to roll over and be dead meat to suit the convenience of the slimes in power at the moment -- so the "goal posts" get moved to suit Conservative ideologue tyranny.

There is only ONE way to prevent the slaughter of people who piss off somebody else -- ALL human life is equally protected, entitled, by virtue of being HUMAN, to LIFE, to liberty of conscience, and to pursuit of personally defined happiness -- with only ONE limit to those rights: don't destroy somebody else's right to the same three HUMAN DIGNITIES.

 

[JBeukema]

People practice eugenics every day.

You pick a mate based on looks and what traits your potential offspring may inherit. No big deal.

Eugenics is someone else picking your mate for you, and then deciding how many children you have, and maybe killing those children because they fucked up.

Where on Earth did you get your understanding of eugenics? That's like saying 'chemistry is someone putting cyanide in your tea'.

 

[JBeukema]

What flaws are we screening for? That's the most uncomfortable question of all. Sometimes the flaw is a horrible disease. But increasingly, it's a milder disease, the absence of useful tissue, or just the wrong sex. If you think it's hard to explain where babies come from, try explaining where baby-making is going.

The growing practice of embryo eugenics. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine

[

How is that fundamentally any different than timing the pregnancy comes under Venus because of some old superstition?

What do you think happens to those embryos that are the wrong sex, or have the wrong eyes?

The same thing that happens to countless others in nature.

Eugenics was widely popular in the early decades of the 20th century, but has fallen into disfavor after having become associated with Nazi Germany. Since the postwar period, both the public and the scientific communities have associated eugenics with Nazi abuses, such as enforced racial hygiene, human experimentation, and the extermination of "undesired" population groups.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Eugenics

So you don't like the word?

Genocide is a natural outgrowth of eugenics.

Genocide is a natural outgrowth of religion. I guess eugenics and religions are genocide, then.

The idea sounds good, and always will. I never denied that, or even that it makes some sense. I just object to the fact that it will lead to other things that are abhorrent to any sane person.

Like not forcing the birth of a seriously ill child that will suffer horribly and simultaneously condemn the family to poverty and destitution as they try desperately to pay the medical bills when you can prevent that from happening by aborting a blastocyst or foetus before it even gives rise a person capable of suffering?

People are arrogant, and always will be.

You are a fine example of that.

Eugenics is the moral equivalent of giving a child the trigger to a live nuclear weapon.

Yes... preimplantation is totally the same as giving you the 'trigger' to a live nuke.

 

[JBeukema]

i just think the idea of denying the opportunity to procreate or even purging individuals from society is immoral.

1) Do you believe in Gott? How many people does he deny the chance to procreate?

2) Who advocated any such thing in this thread?

humanity is advanced through our society, the domain of nurture. eugenics and the domain of nature are moot in comparison.

Nurture can only act upon indwelt potential. 'Nature vs. Nurture' is a false dichotomy; the reality is enviroment (nurture) acting upon nature.

 

[JBeukema]

Question: exactly who would get the right to set the minimum IQ for those who live and those who die?

Question: Who advocated setting a minimum IQ and killing those who didn't test high enough? Oh yeah, noone. So were faced with three possibilities:
1) You're stupid
2) You're dishonest
3) You're stupid and dishonest

The Liberals would dearly adore having that POWER to legally slaughter anyone who didn't agree with their ideology

Except that it, historically, been primarily conservatives trying to hold onto power who've done that.

-- and then the Conservatives get power the hard way -- at gun point --

Those in power are always conservative in that they are the ones seeking to preserve the status quo.

 

[JBeukema]

'What nature does blindly, slowly, and ruthlessly, man may do providently, quickly, and kindly. As it lies within his power, so it becomes his duty to work in that direction'