What is evidence?

[Czernobog]

Besides... if the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction.

Alexander Vilenkin

No. The expansion had a beginning. That this expansion was the "beggining of the universe" is a presumption.

 

[ding]

Besides... if the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction.

Alexander Vilenkin

No. The expansion had a beginning. That this expansion was the "beggining of the universe" is a presumption.

Are you trying to argue a static universe? Because that has the problem of what started the expansion.

Can you provide a link for your theory?

 

[ding]

Be honest. Do you understand anything you just copied in?

Actually, I do. The universe was so dense, and so hot (around 10324 K) in the beginning that the four force3s of the universe were compressed into one megaforce, if you will. Now, the details of the Heisenberg inequality formula, I will admit that I only understand the basics, as I described them - that particles basically bounced in, and out of existence taking in, and giving off minute amounts of energy so quickly that the effect would appear to be "energy from nothing".

Why? Have I gone beyond you? If so, then maybe we should both just back off to "I don't know how the universe came into being, but instead of just saying, 'God did it,' maybe we should wait until science has a chance to understand it,"

Not quite. The early universe was composed of subatomic particles but very rapidly evolved to hydrogen and helium as it expanded and cooled.

It is widely accepted within the scientific community that the very early universe conditions should have generated matter and antimatter in equal amounts. The inability of matter and antimatter to survive each other should have led to a universe with only a bit of each left as the universe expanded. Yet today's universe holds far more matter than antimatter. For reasons no one yet understands, nature ruled out antimatter.

And none of that has to do with what we are discussing which is evidence that you are rejecting.


Oh... and BTW, the 2nd Law of Thermo still proves that the universe had a beginning.

Since the laws of physics, as we understand them, didn't operate until after the initial expansion, how do you propose the 2nd Law of thermodynamics even applies to the Big Bang?

It doesn't. It applies to the universe not being cyclical. If it isn't cyclical then it did have a beginning.

Since the Second law of Thermodynamics doesn't apply at the event horizon, you can't make that determination, especially when you factor in the possibility of quantum tunneling.

But it applies to everything after that which is what I am talking about.

Why do you dismiss all this evidence?

 

[ding]

Wasn't expecting that, were you?

It was no different than what you said before.

Do you have a link for any of this?

 

[hobelim]

Fuck off yourself.

I didn't say the bible is evidence .

I said the bible provides evidence for biblical beliefs.

People say Jesus claimed to be God. Where else are you going to look for evidence that would support that belief?

schmuck.

Why do you believe the Bible provides evidence? What do you believe the term evidence to mean?

since evidence means "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." when discussing beliefs that are claimed to be based on teaching in the bible evidence that would either support or refute those beliefs would have to be found in the bible.

Well, the Bible would in fact, be useful as evidence of whether a particular belief that is claimed to be "biblical" is, in fact, in the bible. However, who cares? "I believe in God, because he in in the Bible". When one examines the bible, low and behold, God is mentioned in the bible. Woohoo, your belief is "biblical". That doesn't make it factual.

So, we're back to my original question. What is evidence? If your entire body of evidence for believing in the existence of God is, "It's in the bible", you can understand why those of s who are not Christians might find that evidence...less than compelling, right?

Your logic is impeccable as it may apply to those who might profess such a belief but thats not what I have said or am saying.

And of course such evidence is less than compelling. I do not base my experience of God on anything other than experience.

What I would suggest to you or anyone who seeks proof that what is reported in scripture is true is to first seek to understand the subjects of heaven and earth, angels and demons, the living and the dead, and all of the wild beasts of the field that the lord God had made, kosher law, ritual sacrifice, the resurrection etc., subjects that are hidden and not necessarily directly connected to the literal meanings of the words used.

If you don't understand what they were talking about, you wouldn't know where or how to look for proof of God.

The more you humble yourself like a little child challenged to learn the moral of a fairy tale and study the subject free of preconceived ideas, assumptions and resentments based on what confused people have said, the more you will see with your own eyes and perceive with your own mind the volumes of knowledge, like treasure from the ancient past, hidden in short sentences, brief paragraphs and fantastical stories.

The more you can perceive that which was hidden the more you will be able to perceive that the hand of the living God has been intimately involved in your life for your entire life even if in the past you never saw a thing..

You don't need to know that stuff. You only need to humble yourself to see Him.

Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God.


It was the belief in ancient times that the organ of the heart was the seat of consciousness. We now know that consciousness is seated in the brain. Consequently any verse in scripture that is talking about the condition or influence of the heart the subject is actually about whats going on in the mind.

Knowing this, when Jesus said blessed are the pure of heart he meant pure of mind. It is the pure of mind that shall see God.

If you don't purify your mind you will not see God. Simple.

Thats why he has never appeared to you. Your mind is a filthy mess.

 

[hobelim]

Fuck off yourself.

I didn't say the bible is evidence .

I said the bible provides evidence for biblical beliefs.

People say Jesus claimed to be God. Where else are you going to look for evidence that would support that belief?

schmuck.

Why do you believe the Bible provides evidence? What do you believe the term evidence to mean?

since evidence means "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." when discussing beliefs that are claimed to be based on teaching in the bible evidence that would either support or refute those beliefs would have to be found in the bible.

Well, the Bible would in fact, be useful as evidence of whether a particular belief that is claimed to be "biblical" is, in fact, in the bible. However, who cares? "I believe in God, because he in in the Bible". When one examines the bible, low and behold, God is mentioned in the bible. Woohoo, your belief is "biblical". That doesn't make it factual.

So, we're back to my original question. What is evidence? If your entire body of evidence for believing in the existence of God is, "It's in the bible", you can understand why those of s who are not Christians might find that evidence...less than compelling, right?

Your logic is impeccable as it may apply to those who might profess such a belief but thats not what I have said or am saying.

And of course such evidence is less than compelling. I do not base my experience of God on anything other than experience.

What I would suggest to you or anyone who seeks proof that what is reported in scripture is true is to first seek to understand the subjects of heaven and earth, angels and demons, the living and the dead, and all of the wild beasts of the field that the lord God had made, kosher law, ritual sacrifice, the resurrection etc., subjects that are hidden and not necessarily directly connected to the literal meanings of the words used.

If you don't understand what they were talking about, you wouldn't know where or how to look for proof of God.

The more you humble yourself like a little child challenged to learn the moral of a fairy tale and study the subject free of preconceived ideas, assumptions and resentments based on what confused people have said, the more you will see with your own eyes and perceive with your own mind the volumes of knowledge, like treasure from the ancient past, hidden in short sentences, brief paragraphs and fantastical stories.

The more you can perceive that which was hidden the more you will be able to perceive that the hand of the living God has been intimately involved in your life for your entire life even if in the past you never saw a thing..

Let me shorten that up for everyone:

Just close your eyes and use your imagination, until you have fooled yourself.

Now see, wasn't that quicker and more to the point? I'm always here to help!

See Ding?

This guy doesn't believe there is anything wrong with his mind, even though he cant grasp the significance of the metaphors in a fairy tale.

He hasn't spent a moment seeking any truth in them and is convinced that his blindness is proof that there is nothing there.

He hasn't purified his mind, consequently he can't find any truth in the written word, he doesn't see any evidence of God, puts all his eggs in that basket and can't stop acting like a dick.

Just like you, he has his reward already. No one has to believe in God to see that.



"Accursed are the impure of mind for they shall see nothing." ( Hobelim 3:14)