What is a human right?

[mattskramer]

If that is what you need to believe, then so be it. I choose to believe in God

If that is what you need to believe, then so be it.

 

[Diuretic]

I think Judaism doesn't recognise "Hell" but I think there's some other process in its place. It seems that the Jews who became Christians invented Hell. I wonder why?

 

[jillian]

I think Judaism doesn't recognise "Hell" but I think there's some other process in its place. It seems that the Jews who became Christians invented Hell. I wonder why?

Because it wasn't the Jews who became Christians as far as I know who developed the concept of Hell. It was the Roman converts, I think. I also think it came from a misunderstanding of the Jewish concept of Sheol, which is what Jesus would have been familiar with, although the Essenes may have taken a harder line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

 

[midcan5]

I have to disagree with those who think everything is a construct or made up and not relevant across humanity. Life once it starts has intrinsic value and has potentiality as Dworkin has written. Without that value our actions cease to address how we should live and what we do. But we don't really question what we should do because we cannot imagine anything but living. We live for ourselves and we live for our loved ones. No one views their life as a construct or a meaningless guess at meaning. If you doubt that imagine the doctor returning with a stage four cancer diagnosis for you or for anyone you care for.

 

[Diuretic]

Because it wasn't the Jews who became Christians as far as I know who developed the concept of Hell. It was the Roman converts, I think. I also think it came from a misunderstanding of the Jewish concept of Sheol, which is what Jesus would have been familiar with, although the Essenes may have taken a harder line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Thanks jillian, that's interesting. I can't help thinking that having a Hell as a backup would be pretty good for someone who is themselves intent on conversion of others.

 

[Diuretic]

I have to disagree with those who think everything is a construct or made up and not relevant across humanity. Life once it starts has intrinsic value and has potentiality as Dworkin has written. Without that value our actions cease to address how we should live and what we do. But we don't really question what we should do because we cannot imagine anything but living. We live for ourselves and we live for our loved ones. No one views their life as a construct or a meaningless guess at meaning. If you doubt that imagine the doctor returning with a stage four cancer diagnosis for you or for anyone you care for.

Au contraire mon ami - life has no intrinsic or extrinsic value, it's just an existence. What gives it meaning is consciousness. Out of that consciousness come all the constructs we make, including love for self and others.

 

[midcan5]

And consciousness comes from ?

 

[Diuretic]

And consciousness comes from ?

Our brains.

 

[midcan5]

And if we are brain dead we are considered what?

 

[mattskramer]

And if we are brain dead we are considered what?

Unconscious

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And if we are brain dead we are considered what?

If your clinically brain dead you are considered dead and the medical profession considers you unable to ever recover. The family can request life support be terminated and that you be allowed to even die of starvation.

 

[JeffWartman]

The healthcare discussions got me thinking (insert joke here).

How would one define a human right and what would they be? I know this is a very open ended question, but I'm interested in what people think about it. Especially considering the widespread disagreement around whether healtcare is or is not a human right.

What do you think?

I know this may be a little off topic from human rights, but the best quote on rights comes from Libertarian legal theorist (and alum of my High School) Randy Barnett.

p. 58, Restoring the Lost Constitution: The Presumption of Liberty.

"...natural rights define a private domain within which persons may do as they please, provided their conduct does not encroach upon the rightful domain of others. As long as their actions remain within this rightful domain, other persons -- including person calling themselves government officials -- should not interfere without a compelling justification. Because people have a right to do whatever they please within the boundaries defined by natural rights, this means that the rights retained by the people are limited only to their imagination and could never be completely specified or enumerated."

While the OP is discussing positive rights, I would say that what really matters is negative rights, described above.

 

[Diuretic]

And if we are brain dead we are considered what?

Depends on what's functioning and not functioning. Our cerebral cortex is what make us humans, intellectually speaking. If that's not working and I mean none of it's working, then all we have left are the basics bits. Our autonomic nervous system might be working so that we're physiologically alive (and that's without intense life support) but that's all that's happening. There's no consciousness (not talking about a coma).

Been a long while since Brain and Behaviour 101 so I will stand corrected if I'm wrong.

 

[Diuretic]

.....]

While the OP is discussing positive rights, I would say that what really matters is negative rights, described above.

The old freedom to/freedom from formulation? Hard won indeed.

It's interesting that you bring in natural right theory as well, I think we've been skating past it a bit.

 

[manifold]

Read the Bible there is no Hell, Satan rules Earth and will be cast completely out at the second coming. Evil people will just be dead.

That depends on one's interpretation. My church teaches it differently than yours.

 

[midcan5]

Depends on what's functioning and not functioning. Our cerebral cortex is what make us humans, intellectually speaking. If that's not working and I mean none of it's working, then all we have left are the basics bits. Our autonomic nervous system might be working so that we're physiologically alive (and that's without intense life support) but that's all that's happening. There's no consciousness (not talking about a coma).

Been a long while since Brain and Behaviour 101 so I will stand corrected if I'm wrong.

But to get back to my point, 'life has intrinsic value' as without it nothing here means anything - Not even these strange symbols I just typed. It is not a construct or an intellectual agreement as without it ......

 

[mattskramer]

That depends on one's interpretation. My church teaches it differently than yours.

Yep. There are so many “Christian” churches with so many different translations of the Bible. Even beyond that, there are so many interpretations of those different translations. Even beyond that, there are so many different degrees of applications of different passages based on different interpretations of different translations.

Just look at these lists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denominations

 

[mattskramer]

But to get back to my point, 'life has intrinsic value' as without it nothing here means anything - Not even these strange symbols I just typed. It is not a construct or an intellectual agreement as without it ......

One's life has intrinsic value to whom? I'm sorry but this conversation is almost becoming too high-brow even for me. Is this conversation going to move toward the Terri Schiavo issue as what constitutes human life - or am I off track?

 

[Shogun]

since we're rounding the dogma tangent...


why didn't jebus sell his fishes and loaves at a profit at the sermon on the mount? why didn't he take full advantage of the capitolist opportunity present since he solved his little supply problem while demand was peaking? I wonder if a good christian capitolist can help me out with that... It's almost as if... jebus was acting like... a fucking socialist...

indeed, why the anger at money changers in the temple? Sounds like ole jebus was into regulating commerce too. fucking commie.

For what does if profit a man to gain the whole world... and forfiet his soul?


hippies, man. dirty stinking Nag Champa dirtball hippies. If only Kerouac had told Alan to grow up and shave his fucking beard... sheesh.

 

[mattskramer]

since we're rounding the dogma tangent...


why didn't jebus sell his fishes and loaves at a profit at the sermon on the mount? why didn't he take full advantage of the capitolist opportunity present since he solved his little supply problem while demand was peaking? I wonder if a good christian capitolist can help me out with that... It's almost as if... jebus was acting like... a fucking socialist...

indeed, why the anger at money changers in the temple? Sounds like ole jebus was into regulating commerce too. fucking commie.

For what does if profit a man to gain the whole world... and forfiet his soul?


hippies, man. dirty stinking Nag Champa dirtball hippies. If only Kerouac had told Alan to grow up and shave his fucking beard... sheesh.

There are so many different interpretations of what person Jesus was (What were his views on socialism on capitalism as defined today? Would he be a Republican or a Democrat? Different statements in the Bible almost seem to contradict each other. Consider the Sermon on the Mount. It talks so much about giving.

Yet, consider this passage: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. (II Thessalonians 3: 10) (It does not say “can’t work”.)