What if GM did go bankrupt?

[GigiBowman]

David, this is what Sunni Said

Sunniman: In one way or another, the Jewish bankers are going to make a ton of money in this economic melt down. They always do!!

It was his opinion of what would happen concerning GM. Instead of letting him have his opinion you jumped in with the "Fuck You" post. Well, now we had to have your opinion on what you though of Muslim/Arabs and it had nothing to do with GM. The entire thread changed into something else --something that had happened earlier in the day with another thread on the Gold Standard and Iran. Meanwhile, you make yourself sound racist. You weren't defending jews, you were answering what Sunniman said by putting down Muslim/Arabs.

How many times do we have to go over this day in and day out.

I just wanted you to see that you are no different than sunniman at times.

unfortunately you'll never stop defending jews and he'll never stop blaming jews....and I guess...we're all doomed in here to repeat this same freaking thing day after day...EVEN THOUGH there is a thread, specifically for this subject.....that's not enough. We have to turn every thread into a war.

Kill each other I don't care. I'll just skip over those threads from now on.

 

[DavidS]

David is also wrong in implying muslims are responsible for 95% of the violence in the world. The genocides in the balkans, in Rwanda, and in the Congo happened in majority christian nations. Or, non-muslim nations. I think the longest running terrorist war on the planet is by Hindus in Sri Lanka. The tamil tigers.

The following is a list of current international conflicts listing from top to bottom by the number of killed. The ones highlighted in bold have to do with conflicts Muslims are involved in:

Second Congo War
The Iraq War
War in Dafur
Sri Lanken Civil War
Afghanistan War

Now, we have several other ongoing, smaller conflicts such as:List of ongoing conflicts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How many of these ongoing conflicts have something to do with Islamic extremists not wanting to live peacefully with their neighbors?

 

[Zoom-boing]

This is a very interesting article...

What's even more interesting is that it was written 3 years ago.

The article you posted was written three years ago? Wow. What has GM been doing these past three years to try and turn things around? Not much from what I can tell and now they want Uncle to fork over billions (really, can anyone truly comprehend that much money?) for what . . . more of the same? They've been losing money to smaller, better built, more affordable cars from their rivals for years and they've done nothing but sit on their asses and now they're crying boo hoo, give us money? And my guess is, they'll get it and it will solve nothing.

Let 'em file for bankruptcy. Sure things will get worse before they get better but like a forest fire, what comes from the ashes will be better and stronger.

Here's an article agreeing with what many on here are saying; a bailout is a mistake.


Americans Uneasy Over Bailout for Automakers

ATLANTA (Reuters) – As Congress debates legislation to help struggling automakers on Monday, many Americans said they were uneasy with the plan, arguing that while it may save jobs, it would reward companies for pursuing bad business practices.

In interviews from New York to Los Angeles, everyday Americans said the proposed $25 billion rescue plan was unfair and said it would make it harder to reform U.S. automakers.

"They need to restructure. If they get bailed out they are not going to do it.

. . . The three companies, whose gas-guzzling vehicles have been losing market share to Japanese rivals for years, are lobbying for the money to help them restructure and survive the economic downturn.

. . . All three companies said Chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring was not an option.

. . . "But every big company is getting a bailout and the little people don't," he said.

. . . Even so, the bailout is unpopular with many conservatives and others who say in a capitalist society businesses must stand or fall with a minimum of government interference. On Sunday, Arizona Republican Sen. Jon Kyl told Fox News American taxpayers should not be burdened with bailing out the auto industry.

"It's like nature's law: Only the fit survive," said John Berrotto, 50, a security director in New York who drives a Lexus and said he does not support the idea of a bailout. "Sometimes companies just don't make it," he said.

. . . In Los Angeles, which hosts the Los Angeles Auto Show this week, many people said they doubted a bailout was the best course of action. Some said it might be better for the companies to go bankrupt. Others said the industry could not survive long-term and that the bailout would be throwing good money after bad.

"I'm not sure they (the automakers) can be salvaged. Part of me says that if Honda and Toyota can make better cars in the U.S. with American workers, so be it," said Tom Reiter, who was interviewed in Los Angeles and drives a 2001 Jaguar XJ he said was a "big gas guzzler."

. . . "I don't see why it's a massive emergency all of a sudden," Porter said, adding that many other sectors were also in trouble.

Asked about claims by U.S. automakers that they could not make a profit manufacturing small cars, he said: "If you can't make a profit then you are going to go bankrupt."

Americans uneasy over bailout for automakers - Yahoo! News

 

[Sunni Man]

I find Sunni, who would be more than happy to crash a jet into one of New York City's office buildings, to be more than offensive.

DavidS that is an idiotic statement.

I am a Patriotic American and a Vietnam Era Vet

I am a law abiding citizen and break NO laws.

I have NO desire to committ suicide or hurt anyone.

I do feel an apology is in order for this baseless accusation.

 

[DavidS]

DavidS that is an idiotic statement.

I am a Patriotic American and a Vietnam Era Vet

I am a law abiding citizen and break NO laws.

I have NO desire to committ suicide or hurt anyone.

I do feel an apology is in order for this baseless accusation.

Go fuck yourself you nazi sympathizer.

 

[indago]

"The situation now is a result of a collapse of the economy." — Senator Carl Levin 17 November 2008

Senator Levin (D - Michigan) is in Washington D. C. fighting for taxpayer dollars to bailout GM. He should well know about the "collapse of the economy" since he contributed to this collapse with his votes for free trade agreements that have so devastated our economic system. Now, rather than the auto companies thriving on sales to keep them solvent, Senator Levin is seeking to lay the burden upon the people, generally. This is a hypocrisy in the first degree.

 

[DavidS]

"The situation now is a result of a collapse of the economy." — Senator Carl Levin 17 November 2008

Senator Levin (D - Michigan) is in Washington D. C. fighting for taxpayer dollars to bailout GM. He should well know about the "collapse of the economy" since he contributed to this collapse with his votes for free trade agreements that have so devastated our economic system. Now, rather than the auto companies thriving on sales to keep them solvent, Senator Levin is seeking to lay the burden upon the people, generally. This is a hypocrisy in the first degree.

Why do we have Senators and Congressmen from states that are already manufacturing cars are fighting for this and everyone from other states doesn't seem to care one way or another?

 

[indago]

DavidS has cacophoniously cackled:
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Why do we have Senators and Congressmen from states that are already manufacturing cars are fighting for this and everyone from other states doesn't seem to care one way or another?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Journalists Alison Fitzgerald and Jonathan D. Salant wrote for Bloomberg News 17 November 2008:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toyota, BMW, Hyundai Workers' Senators Oppose Rescue — Senators from southern states with factories owned by Asian and European car manufacturers oppose a bailout of U.S. automakers, saying the industry can thrive without General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC. Republican Senators Richard Shelby and Jeff Sessions of Alabama, and James DeMint of South Carolina, are among lawmakers trying to derail Democratic plans, supported by President-elect Barack Obama, to provide at least $25 billion in loans to the three U.S. companies.
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Now, who are we to believe: you, or Bloomberg News???

 

[matty]

I'm not racist, Gigi. My doorman is an Arab-Muslim and we talk politics all the time. I can't say I have any Muslim friends, mostly because my neighborhood doesn't have any, I have had several good discussions with Muslims before and I find them mostly to be very good, peaceful people.

I find Sunni, who would be more than happy to crash a jet into one of New York City's office buildings, to be more than offensive. And if he's going to "cast aspersions" about other groups of people, he had better make sure his own group of people is perfect. They're not.

It is not that I am anti-Muslim, it is that I am pro-Jewish.

 

[Navy1960]

GM, while and important asset in the American industrial base should not be immune to Chapter 11 like any company that has been mismanaged and is in such a situation that it is no longer solvent enough to continue it's operations as before. While Chapter 11 will be many layoffs thats true, it is not the end of the world for GM or for that matter any of the other Big 3 automakers. In fact it will allow them to do several things, it will allow them to shed by Trustee decree if necessary unwanted divisions and assets. Further it will automatically void all Union contracts and force them to renegotiate. It will also allow for a Govt. takeover of the Union pension fund , thus eleminating the massive costs associated with pension benefits that GM builds into each car. While Chapter 11 will be hard on many it will result in a leaner, more flexible car company better able to compete with it's rivals and one that is more suited to the 21st Century and not the 1957 mode of operation all the Big 3 have been stuck in for years. Many companies have gone into Chapter 11 and emerged from it Delta is a more recent example. So just because a company goes into Chapter 11 does not mean that it's the end of the road or that the company will no longer get financing which is the current argument against Chapter 11. It will effect GM's rating for a while yes, but in the end if it forces GM to build better car's and makes them profitable and puts them on an equal footing down the road with Honda and Toyota then IMHO it is a method that needs to be explored.

The other thing here thats worth mentioning too, is what sort of message does it send to the employee's of DHL, Lehman Bros., Circuit City when you tell those thousands and thousands of employess' your not good enough to get a bailout to save your job, but if you work at the Big three you are!!

 

[DavidS]

GM should indeed file chapter 11 along with Ford. Chrysler on the other hand is owned by an investment firm. I'm not sure if Chrysler LLC is a separate corporation or not... I mean, these guys JUST bought Chrysler and they're already in over their head. I think Chrysler's going to fail, I think Ford and GM will go into bankruptcy and re-organize. They have to... if they don't, all 3 companies will go bust.

 

[Navy1960]

GM should indeed file chapter 11 along with Ford. Chrysler on the other hand is owned by an investment firm. I'm not sure if Chrysler LLC is a separate corporation or not... I mean, these guys JUST bought Chrysler and they're already in over their head. I think Chrysler's going to fail, I think Ford and GM will go into bankruptcy and re-organize. They have to... if they don't, all 3 companies will go bust.

I think it likely David that you will see Chrysler go into Chapter 11 and be purchased by another company in part. For example, there are rumors that Kia or one of the others Korean car makers wants the Jeep Division of Chrysler. There are also rumors out there about VW and it's designs on GM so one never knows. IMHO though the investment house that has run Chrysler had indeed been negligent and not one penny of any govt. funds should go to them as any sort compensation. In hind sight perhaps it would have been a whole lot smarter for the govt. to just loan GM the 10 billion to buy Chrysler. However, I don't see a bailout doing anything but keeping these companies afloat for a small amount of time till they do go Chapter 11, it would be a better idea to set that money aside for compensation for the employee job loss IMO.

 

[bk1983]

I think it likely David that you will see Chrysler go into Chapter 11 and be purchased by another company in part. For example, there are rumors that Kia or one of the others Korean car makers wants the Jeep Division of Chrysler. There are also rumors out there about VW and it's designs on GM so one never knows. IMHO though the investment house that has run Chrysler had indeed been negligent and not one penny of any govt. funds should go to them as any sort compensation. In hind sight perhaps it would have been a whole lot smarter for the govt. to just loan GM the 10 billion to buy Chrysler. However, I don't see a bailout doing anything but keeping these companies afloat for a small amount of time till they do go Chapter 11, it would be a better idea to set that money aside for compensation for the employee job loss IMO.

I agree 100%, nice post!

 

[editec]

I'm informed that if any one of the big three go down, then their top level suppliers also go down, thus cause the other two companies to go down as well.

Gonna be might hard times for the upper midwest if that happens, folks.

I am not in a position to know if the American Auto industry can survive, if the bailout is a wise idea or just throwing good money after bad.

But I do know that if 3,000,000 people are newly unemployed, and the tens of millions who are depending on UAW pensions and health care lose those benefits, it's not going to be good times for this nation's economy.

The American taxpayer is going to end up paying one way or the other, so the real question is which way is the best solution to the problem?

 

[indago]

Journalists Justin Hyde and Todd Spangler wrote for Detroit Free Press 18 November 2008:
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The government's loans would take top priority among all the company's debts — except for payments to the UAW trust fund for retiree health care — and the Treasury must receive warrants or preferred stock worth at least 20% of the loan's value. Given their high cash needs and low market values, that could mean the government would own a majority of one or more automakers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in the seventh plank of the Communist Manifesto: Means of Production owned by government.

Communism, which was so decried by this government fifty years ago, to the point of witch hunts, is now being encouraged and embraced by the very same government.

 

[DavidS]

I'm informed that if any one of the big three go down, then their top level suppliers also go down, thus cause the other two companies to go down as well.

Gonna be might hard times for the upper midwest if that happens, folks.

I am not in a position to know if the American Auto industry can survive, if the bailout is a wise idea or just throwing good money after bad.

But I do know that if 3,000,000 people are newly unemployed, and the tens of millions who are depending on UAW pensions and health care lose those benefits, it's not going to be good times for this nation's economy.

The American taxpayer is going to end up paying one way or the other, so the real question is which way is the best solution to the problem?

The pensions are taken care of via a private account - they're fine.

Unfortunately, we cannot just keep throwing money at the problem. GM was rumored to declare bankruptcy 3 years ago and they haven't done jack squat to improve their situation since. If this were a new problem, they were doing fine until the crisis hit them, yeah ok I'd say it's time to lend a hand, but it's not and they even refuse to enter chapter 11 which would give them time to re-organize. GM is going to fail whether we like it or not. Throwing money only delays the inevitable and having a big company like GM go bust when our economy is recovering in a year from now would really hurt us.

If a company like GM is going to go bust - now is the best time for that to happen.

 

[editec]

The pensions are taken care of via a private account - they're fine.

That is not what I'm reading, but I hope you''re right.

Unfortunately, we cannot just keep throwing money at the problem. GM was rumored to declare bankruptcy 3 years ago and they haven't done jack squat to improve their situation since. If this were a new problem, they were doing fine until the crisis hit them, yeah ok I'd say it's time to lend a hand, but it's not and they even refuse to enter chapter 11 which would give them time to re-organize. GM is going to fail whether we like it or not. Throwing money only delays the inevitable and having a big company like GM go bust when our economy is recovering in a year from now would really hurt us.

Yes, I understand that position, and I confess I am not well enough informed to refute that point.

If a company like GM is going to go bust - now is the best time for that to happen.

Now is a good time?

You mean now when the eoconomy is othewise so healthy?

Now while there is no unemployment problems to speak of?

Now while our economy is so fundamantally sound?

I don't see a solution to be honest.

What I do see is that increasing the unelpoyment by two or three million isn't going to be a good thing for this nation though.

But as to whether bailing out the American Auto companies is a wise plan?

Frankly I haven't seen enough of the plan to know.

 

[DavidS]

Now is a good time?

You mean now when the eoconomy is othewise so healthy?

Now while there is no unemployment problems to speak of?

Now while our economy is so fundamantally sound?

I don't see a solution to be honest.

What I do see is that increasing the unelpoyment by two or three million isn't going to be a good thing for this nation though.

But as to whether bailing out the American Auto companies is a wise plan?

Frankly I haven't seen enough of the plan to know.

No, the economy is terrible right now and getting worse. But the economy is already bad - and the country is dealing with it as best as possible. It's ready to handle unemployment and such. When a patient is sick, you don't just cure the fever and ignore everything else. You cure everything at once and unfortunately, you cannot cure GM until they go into bankruptcy.