What History Tells Us About (Tea) Party Revolts

[Procrustes Stretched]

All I have to say is if the Tea Party following is a wing of the GOP, we have nothing to fear:

Republicans are so fucking incmpetant[sic] a 4 year old can out think them...

 

[Papa Jack]

Older Americans continue to use government services, more so than other age groups. They should be treated like any other American an taxed based on their ability to pay

Rightwinger, in a few words your perfectly stated my position.

I'm not talking about "granny," or "poppa," who might have nothing to live on except Social Security. I'm talking about those who are fortunate enough to have amassed a net worth that puts them in a far better lifestyle than the 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 some things that are paying our way.

No one wants to pay more taxes...........I got that! But, if we are in a position when revenues must be raised in order to avoid a financial meltdown, then the sons and daughters of the "Greatest Generation" should be expected to do their duty!

Maybe we should try to get the 45% who File Federal Income Tax and never pay any money to Support the Government, I mean they use all the Services Too.

After we get a Fair Share from the ones who don't pay, we can go after the ones who have been paying for 40+ Years

Perhaps we should, but is it your view that as long as we don't do a thing to solve our problem then the money I earn from capital gains should not be taxed anywhere near what you earn working hard for many hours a week?

 

[Gremlin-USA]

the money I earn from capital gains should not be taxed anywhere near what you earn working hard for many hours a week?

Yes, that is my view, if you are over 65 and have Capitol Gains Tax because of of Investments, then why would I want to deprive you of your Investments and your Years of Hard Work to be able to have saved a little in your old age to be able to invest.

I do not believe in Kicking someone because they accomplished something that took them 40+ years to achieve

I also think it sucks to save all your life and want to give something to your kids and then it be taxed 50-60%, it was already taxed how many times when you worked and tried to save something?, the Inheritance Tax expires at the end of the year

 

[froggy]

Older Americans continue to use government services, more so than other age groups. They should be treated like any other American an taxed based on their ability to pay

Rightwinger, in a few words your perfectly stated my position.

I'm not talking about "granny," or "poppa," who might have nothing to live on except Social Security. I'm talking about those who are fortunate enough to have amassed a net worth that puts them in a far better lifestyle than the 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 some things that are paying our way.

No one wants to pay more taxes...........I got that! But, if we are in a position when revenues must be raised in order to avoid a financial meltdown, then the sons and daughters of the "Greatest Generation" should be expected to do their duty!

Maybe we should try to get the 45% who File Federal Income Tax and never pay any money to Support the Government, I mean they use all the Services Too.

After we get a Fair Share from the ones who don't pay, we can go after the ones who have been paying for 40+ Years

Lets put a stop to these enormous refunds given to people with kids, they don't use it to help the kids anyway.

 

[Papa Jack]

the money I earn from capital gains should not be taxed anywhere near what you earn working hard for many hours a week?

Yes, that is my view, if you are over 65 and have Capitol Gains Tax because of of Investments, then why would I want to deprive you of your Investments and your Years of Hard Work to be able to have saved a little in your old age to be able to invest.

I do not believe in Kicking someone because they accomplished something that took them 40+ years to achieve

I also think it sucks to save all your life and want to give something to your kids and then it be taxed 50-60%, it was already taxed how many times when you worked and tried to save something?, the Inheritance Tax expires at the end of the year

So many things to reply to from your post. First off, a small increase on the PROFITS from my investments would not be "depriving me of my Investments."

Secondly, a small increase in the capital gains tax would be FAR from "being taxed 50-60%. Why does a political debate always deteriorate into such extremes?

Now, I certainly appreciate you being so willing to work, and work hard in order to maintain my lifestyle which, statistically speaking, is somewhat better than your own. But, this thing about the Inheritance Tax is one that is waaaaaaay over my head. Perhaps you can explain how you think we're better off with you paying the taxes for such people as the heirs of Michael Moore.

I completely understand this kneejerk reaction to NO TAXES! But, from a realistic viewpoint, it makes little sense. We have made a ton of mistakes over the past 30 years, and the chickens are close to coming home to roost. When mistakes have been made, they can only been turned around with some sacrifice. We, as a country, are in a hole. Doing nothing, which for a reason I'll never grasp is some people's choice, insures that hole only gets deeper.

In a nutshell, my parents worked long and hard to hand me a chance at life that was better than their own. I am so ashamed of what I'm handing to my children, and I really wonder how you feel about what your generation's actions will mean to your kids..

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Older Americans continue to use government services, more so than other age groups. They should be treated like any other American an taxed based on their ability to pay

Rightwinger, in a few words your perfectly stated my position.

I'm not talking about "granny," or "poppa," who might have nothing to live on except Social Security. I'm talking about those who are fortunate enough to have amassed a net worth that puts them in a far better lifestyle than the 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 some things that are paying our way.

No one wants to pay more taxes...........I got that! But, if we are in a position when revenues must be raised in order to avoid a financial meltdown, then the sons and daughters of the "Greatest Generation" should be expected to do their duty!

Maybe we should try to get the 45% who File Federal Income Tax and never pay any money to Support the Government, I mean they use all the Services Too.

After we get a Fair Share from the ones who don't pay, we can go after the ones who have been paying for 40+ Years

maybe we should just get rid of the middle class and have the super wealthy and the rest of us?

oops!

sorry, I forgot we are already going down that road.

(thank you Ronald Reagan)

 

[Papa Jack]

Rightwinger, in a few words your perfectly stated my position.

I'm not talking about "granny," or "poppa," who might have nothing to live on except Social Security. I'm talking about those who are fortunate enough to have amassed a net worth that puts them in a far better lifestyle than the 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 some things that are paying our way.

No one wants to pay more taxes...........I got that! But, if we are in a position when revenues must be raised in order to avoid a financial meltdown, then the sons and daughters of the "Greatest Generation" should be expected to do their duty!

Maybe we should try to get the 45% who File Federal Income Tax and never pay any money to Support the Government, I mean they use all the Services Too.

After we get a Fair Share from the ones who don't pay, we can go after the ones who have been paying for 40+ Years

maybe we should just get rid of the middle class and have the super wealthy and the rest of us?

oops!

sorry, I forgot we are already going down that road.

(thank you Ronald Reagan)

Perhaps it would make sense, especially if we want to have a country to pass along to our grandkids, for us to get our house in order.

Doing nothing is no option..........it merely means we get to hand our kids a bankrupt nation somewhat faster.

As much as some would try to peddle the snake oil that would pretend we can get out of this mess by merely cutting a little here, and a dab there.............that is just a pipedream, and will also insure we are fast to hand our children a mess they did not make!

Some would love to return to a golden age where taxes were low, government did nothing and we all prospered. Sadly, that day so many dream of never existed. There was a time that was our golden age.........in the 50's and 60's when everyone knew they'd be better off than were their parents, and were absolutely assured their children would do better than them. Anybody who wanted a job could get one, even if they were high school dropouts. We had the greatest interstate highway system in the world, the greatest educational system known to man, and a middle class income family could afford a car, a home, groceries, clothing, and being able to educate their children. Wasn't a bad time was it?

Now, although the great, great majority of us were solidly middle class back during that great period, very, very few were millionaires. Bankers, and lawyers, and stock brokers, and doctors were solidly upper middle class, but few, if any, were rich. And just to round it out, the top tax rate was somewhere around 90%.

The only thing we did wrong was to listen to some side show peddler who told us we could do better. We could do better if we stopped paying for the services done in our interest by government,. We were sold on the promise that if we stopped directing the flow of government money away from the middle class and sent it to the upper income earners, it would make it all better.

Okay, we fell for that crap and look where it got us. Now, I don't fault us for being fooled, but what does it take to see it ain't working, and will never work? When are going to grow up and make the hard choices it'll take to turn this mess around?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Maybe we should try to get the 45% who File Federal Income Tax and never pay any money to Support the Government, I mean they use all the Services Too.

After we get a Fair Share from the ones who don't pay, we can go after the ones who have been paying for 40+ Years

maybe we should just get rid of the middle class and have the super wealthy and the rest of us?

oops!

sorry, I forgot we are already going down that road.

(thank you Ronald Reagan)

Perhaps it would make sense, especially if we want to have a country to pass along to our grandkids, for us to get our house in order.

Doing nothing is no option..........it merely means we get to hand our kids a bankrupt nation somewhat faster.

As much as some would try to peddle the snake oil that would pretend we can get out of this mess by merely cutting a little here, and a dab there.............that is just a pipedream, and will also insure we are fast to hand our children a mess they did not make!

Some would love to return to a golden age where taxes were low, government did nothing and we all prospered. Sadly, that day so many dream of never existed. There was a time that was our golden age.........in the 50's and 60's when everyone knew they'd be better off than were their parents, and were absolutely assured their children would do better than them. Anybody who wanted a job could get one, even if they were high school dropouts. We had the greatest interstate highway system in the world, the greatest educational system known to man, and a middle class income family could afford a car, a home, groceries, clothing, and being able to educate their children. Wasn't a bad time was it?

Now, although the great, great majority of us were solidly middle class back during that great period, very, very few were millionaires. Bankers, and lawyers, and stock brokers, and doctors were solidly upper middle class, but few, if any, were rich. And just to round it out, the top tax rate was somewhere around 90%.

The only thing we did wrong was to listen to some side show peddler who told us we could do better. We could do better if we stopped paying for the services done in our interest by government,. We were sold on the promise that if we stopped directing the flow of government money away from the middle class and sent it to the upper income earners, it would make it all better.

Okay, we fell for that crap and look where it got us. Now, I don't

Your list of what helped Americans prosper includes much that was dismantled in the last 40 years. Despite the evidence most people are unwilling to admit trickle down economics lifted all boats for a while. It worked. What the cost was is the divide between the top and others was widened exponentially. The rift between wealthy and everyone else is now great.

We used (in varying degrees) trickle down economics for decades and when a crisis inevitably came we see the only fair solution and refuse to embrace it. Use a form of trickle down to get us out of the crisis. Pay, proportionately to gains made in previous 4 decades, pay a fair share based on rewards received over the last forty years.

 

[Papa Jack]

maybe we should just get rid of the middle class and have the super wealthy and the rest of us?

oops!

sorry, I forgot we are already going down that road.

(thank you Ronald Reagan)

Perhaps it would make sense, especially if we want to have a country to pass along to our grandkids, for us to get our house in order.

Doing nothing is no option..........it merely means we get to hand our kids a bankrupt nation somewhat faster.

As much as some would try to peddle the snake oil that would pretend we can get out of this mess by merely cutting a little here, and a dab there.............that is just a pipedream, and will also insure we are fast to hand our children a mess they did not make!

Some would love to return to a golden age where taxes were low, government did nothing and we all prospered. Sadly, that day so many dream of never existed. There was a time that was our golden age.........in the 50's and 60's when everyone knew they'd be better off than were their parents, and were absolutely assured their children would do better than them. Anybody who wanted a job could get one, even if they were high school dropouts. We had the greatest interstate highway system in the world, the greatest educational system known to man, and a middle class income family could afford a car, a home, groceries, clothing, and being able to educate their children. Wasn't a bad time was it?

Now, although the great, great majority of us were solidly middle class back during that great period, very, very few were millionaires. Bankers, and lawyers, and stock brokers, and doctors were solidly upper middle class, but few, if any, were rich. And just to round it out, the top tax rate was somewhere around 90%.

The only thing we did wrong was to listen to some side show peddler who told us we could do better. We could do better if we stopped paying for the services done in our interest by government,. We were sold on the promise that if we stopped directing the flow of government money away from the middle class and sent it to the upper income earners, it would make it all better.

Okay, we fell for that crap and look where it got us. Now, I don't

Your list of what helped Americans prosper includes much that was dismantled in the last 40 years. Despite the evidence most people are unwilling to admit trickle down economics lifted all boats for a while. It worked. What the cost was is the divide between the top and others was widened exponentially. The rift between wealthy and everyone else is now great.

We used (in varying degrees) trickle down economics for decades and when a crisis inevitably came we see the only fair solution and refuse to embrace it. Use a form of trickle down to get us out of the crisis. Pay, proportionately to gains made in previous 4 decades, pay a fair share based on rewards received over the last forty years.

You are absolutely correct when you state "Your list of what helped Americans prosper includes much that was dismantled in the last 40 years." We did completely change how we did things that worked into what we have today.

Nothing, but nothing, could be further from the fact than when you said, "Despite the evidence most people are unwilling to admit trickle down economics lifted all boats for a while." "Trickle Down" has never, ever worked..............every blessed time we've gone down that road the results have been exactly the same.............huge deficits, job losses, decrease in family take home pay.

This is what mystifies me! People, like yourself, can look at what happened, see and feel the results, and STILL keep supporting it. What does it take to make someone look realistically at what has happened and make them consider that there might, just might, be a better way?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I've attended a few Tea Party rallies, and I'll tell you the biggest problem I have with the "movement." At the meetings I saw first hand, the group that made up the largest number of attendees were old coots like myself. It would not be as colorful a term as "Tea Party," but I think a more appropriate name might be "AARP Senior Discount Movement!"

I have to be honest and admit it embarrassed me to see my fellow senior citizens out there supporting candidates who vowed they would keep increasing the quality of life for us old farts at the expense of our kids, grandkids, and great grandkids.

We seniors are the most affluent segment of society, and we pay, by a wide margin, the least amount of taxes. Perhaps someone can explain to me why the income I earn from capital gains, while sitting on my butt, is taxed at a much lower level than that of my granddaughter and her husband, who have two small children.

My granddaughter worked mighty hard to get a good job. She is the occupational therapist for our local county school system. However, because of budget cuts, our school system has been forced to impose furlough days for the workers in the local educational system, which amounts to to several thousand dollars in lost salary to her family.

At the same time, while we are facing these budgetary shortfalls in education, my state legislature pushed through a last minute bill near the end of its last session which said no earnings from retirement earning would face ANY State Taxes! Am I the only one who thinks this is lunacy?

I am 36

I do not think people over 65 should be taxed!

It is not because I hate taxes. (Actually, I understand the need for taxes, so it is like a necessary evil to me) It is that after a point, I think the government should leave the elderly alone.

I mean, The olg geezers are losing their minds, the functionality of their bodies and hoping that they will not go to hell for all the sad things they did in their lives plus the money is going back into the economy after they kick the bucket anyway so let them have a feeble sounding last hurrah before then!!

What do you guys think?

Using this logic, Social Security would be dead. Yesterday.

SS should be dead.

 

[Gremlin-USA]

the money I earn from capital gains should not be taxed anywhere near what you earn working hard for many hours a week?

Yes, that is my view, if you are over 65 and have Capitol Gains Tax because of of Investments, then why would I want to deprive you of your Investments and your Years of Hard Work to be able to have saved a little in your old age to be able to invest.

I do not believe in Kicking someone because they accomplished something that took them 40+ years to achieve

I also think it sucks to save all your life and want to give something to your kids and then it be taxed 50-60%, it was already taxed how many times when you worked and tried to save something?, the Inheritance Tax expires at the end of the year

So many things to reply to from your post. First off, a small increase on the PROFITS from my investments would not be "depriving me of my Investments."

Secondly, a small increase in the capital gains tax would be FAR from "being taxed 50-60%. Why does a political debate always deteriorate into such extremes?

Now, I certainly appreciate you being so willing to work, and work hard in order to maintain my lifestyle which, statistically speaking, is somewhat better than your own. But, this thing about the Inheritance Tax is one that is waaaaaaay over my head. Perhaps you can explain how you think we're better off with you paying the taxes for such people as the heirs of Michael Moore.

I completely understand this kneejerk reaction to NO TAXES! But, from a realistic viewpoint, it makes little sense. We have made a ton of mistakes over the past 30 years, and the chickens are close to coming home to roost. When mistakes have been made, they can only been turned around with some sacrifice. We, as a country, are in a hole. Doing nothing, which for a reason I'll never grasp is some people's choice, insures that hole only gets deeper.

In a nutshell, my parents worked long and hard to hand me a chance at life that was better than their own. I am so ashamed of what I'm handing to my children, and I really wonder how you feel about what your generation's actions will mean to your kids..

My whole analogy was based on the comparison that you made saying the taxes you paid after your retirement on Capitol Gains was less than your Granddaughter paid on her Capitol Gains, my statement was that it should be less on Retirees, as most retirees have worked hard and paid the higher taxes for possibly 40+ years. I stand by that.

I also mentioned the expiration of the ability to have no Inheritance Tax when someone dies and leave their life saving to their Children or Grandchildren.

BTW, what does Micheal Moore have to do with Inheritance? So filmmakers should be treated differently than Bill Ayers? Yes, that comparison was just as silly as you mentioning Moore to start with, I did not even know who he was, till I googled him.

Both points have to do with honoring the hard work most people do all their lives, but it seems to day the Government wants to penalize that work ethic and the ability to help provide for a Good Retirement and also a Monetary Hand to ones Relatives.

Not everyone is so blessed to have enough money in retirement to be able to invest and have Capitols Gains, but it seems lately that does not matter, there are so many ways the Government wants to strip you of your property because they think they have the right to give it to who they see fit.

I do understand the need to invest in our Kids and Gran-kids Future and am all for that but hurting the Elderly is not the way to go and spending money in Historical Proportions as it has been done in the last few years is definitely worsening things for Future Generations.

 

[editec]

Short term gains on stock investments are taxed at your regular tax rate; long term gains are taxed at 15% for most tax brackets, and zero for the lowest two.

So let me get this straight.

If you have no income other than those from capital gains, you're in the ZERO percent tax rate?

That can't be right.

Do we have any tax accountants in the crowd?

Seriously, I must be more than just a tad confused about how capital gains are taxed.

I assumed that capital gains (minus any specific capital gains tx laws, like for home sellers) were all taxed based on the length of time the investment was held.

Didn't it used to be that way?

At any rate, I need further clarification of how these taxes are assessed.

 

[Papa Jack]

I am 36

I do not think people over 65 should be taxed!

It is not because I hate taxes. (Actually, I understand the need for taxes, so it is like a necessary evil to me) It is that after a point, I think the government should leave the elderly alone.

I mean, The olg geezers are losing their minds, the functionality of their bodies and hoping that they will not go to hell for all the sad things they did in their lives plus the money is going back into the economy after they kick the bucket anyway so let them have a feeble sounding last hurrah before then!!

What do you guys think?

Using this logic, Social Security would be dead. Yesterday.

SS should be dead.

Perhaps you're right..........maybe "SS should be dead." However, that has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the mess we face. For better, or worse, we are stuck with Social Security and no matter how anyone feels about it, we will have it until we either reform it to make it solvent, or until we follow Greece over the cliff.

This attitude of "SS should be dead," just gives those cowardly politicians another reason to put off that which scares the hell out of 'em...........making tough choices.

 

[Papa Jack]

Yes, that is my view, if you are over 65 and have Capitol Gains Tax because of of Investments, then why would I want to deprive you of your Investments and your Years of Hard Work to be able to have saved a little in your old age to be able to invest.

I do not believe in Kicking someone because they accomplished something that took them 40+ years to achieve

I also think it sucks to save all your life and want to give something to your kids and then it be taxed 50-60%, it was already taxed how many times when you worked and tried to save something?, the Inheritance Tax expires at the end of the year

So many things to reply to from your post. First off, a small increase on the PROFITS from my investments would not be "depriving me of my Investments."

Secondly, a small increase in the capital gains tax would be FAR from "being taxed 50-60%. Why does a political debate always deteriorate into such extremes?

Now, I certainly appreciate you being so willing to work, and work hard in order to maintain my lifestyle which, statistically speaking, is somewhat better than your own. But, this thing about the Inheritance Tax is one that is waaaaaaay over my head. Perhaps you can explain how you think we're better off with you paying the taxes for such people as the heirs of Michael Moore.

I completely understand this kneejerk reaction to NO TAXES! But, from a realistic viewpoint, it makes little sense. We have made a ton of mistakes over the past 30 years, and the chickens are close to coming home to roost. When mistakes have been made, they can only been turned around with some sacrifice. We, as a country, are in a hole. Doing nothing, which for a reason I'll never grasp is some people's choice, insures that hole only gets deeper.

In a nutshell, my parents worked long and hard to hand me a chance at life that was better than their own. I am so ashamed of what I'm handing to my children, and I really wonder how you feel about what your generation's actions will mean to your kids..

My whole analogy was based on the comparison that you made saying the taxes you paid after your retirement on Capitol Gains was less than your Granddaughter paid on her Capitol Gains, my statement was that it should be less on Retirees, as most retirees have worked hard and paid the higher taxes for possibly 40+ years. I stand by that.

I also mentioned the expiration of the ability to have no Inheritance Tax when someone dies and leave their life saving to their Children or Grandchildren.

BTW, what does Micheal Moore have to do with Inheritance? So filmmakers should be treated differently than Bill Ayers? Yes, that comparison was just as silly as you mentioning Moore to start with, I did not even know who he was, till I googled him.

Both points have to do with honoring the hard work most people do all their lives, but it seems to day the Government wants to penalize that work ethic and the ability to help provide for a Good Retirement and also a Monetary Hand to ones Relatives.

Not everyone is so blessed to have enough money in retirement to be able to invest and have Capitols Gains, but it seems lately that does not matter, there are so many ways the Government wants to strip you of your property because they think they have the right to give it to who they see fit.

I do understand the need to invest in our Kids and Gran-kids Future and am all for that but hurting the Elderly is not the way to go and spending money in Historical Proportions as it has been done in the last few years is definitely worsening things for Future Generations.

We were not quite on the same track, Gremlin.............probably my fault for not being clear. What I said, or meant to say, was I pay a far less percentage of taxes on what I earn from capital gains than my granddaughter pays on WHAT SHE EARNS IN WAGES.

I'm not saying capital gains SHOULD be taxed at the same rate as wages...........that might make for an interesting debate at a future date. What I think is that in order to come up with some of the money we will have to have in order to make Social Security and Medicare solvent, a small increase in that tax rate would be appropriate.

I appreciate anyone's heartfelt desire to do nothing to take anything from us old codgers. However, if it is inevitable that we will be forced to raise revenues (which really isn't in issue.........the only question is when and where we do it) then Seniors, who are the most affluent segment of society, can most afford it.

As to the so called "Inheritance Tax"........the point I'm making is SOMEONE is going to pay those taxes. Now the heirs of people with great fortunes can pay 'em, or you will pay them. That is what so mystifies me. Good people, like yourself, are convinced they're better off if the money comes right out their pocket instead of those who can much, much better afford it..........the super rich! I just don't get it!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Using this logic, Social Security would be dead. Yesterday.

SS should be dead.

Perhaps you're right..........maybe "SS should be dead." However, that has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the mess we face. For better, or worse, we are stuck with Social Security and no matter how anyone feels about it, we will have it until we either reform it to make it solvent, or until we follow Greece over the cliff.

This attitude of "SS should be dead," just gives those cowardly politicians another reason to put off that which scares the hell out of 'em...........making tough choices.

We are well on our way to following Greece. Social Security should be abolished, it is virtually bankrupt as it stands now. It is nothing more than a pyramid scheme. Pretty soon SS will be paying out more than what's being put in. How long do you think that can last?

The idea of an individual retirement accounts makes a hell lof a lot more sense. An account that the feds can't touch. Hell the only reason Clinton claims to have had a surplus was because he borrowed from SS and other intra-government holdings to pay down the public debt.

But I digress, it is my opinion that SS needs to be abolished it's intent was to aid the elderly and disabled but it has turned out to be something more.

 

[Papa Jack]

SS should be dead.

Perhaps you're right..........maybe "SS should be dead." However, that has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the mess we face. For better, or worse, we are stuck with Social Security and no matter how anyone feels about it, we will have it until we either reform it to make it solvent, or until we follow Greece over the cliff.

This attitude of "SS should be dead," just gives those cowardly politicians another reason to put off that which scares the hell out of 'em...........making tough choices.

We are well on our way to following Greece. Social Security should be abolished, it is virtually bankrupt as it stands now. It is nothing more than a pyramid scheme. Pretty soon SS will be paying out more than what's being put in. How long do you think that can last?

The idea of an individual retirement accounts makes a hell lof a lot more sense. An account that the feds can't touch. Hell the only reason Clinton claims to have had a surplus was because he borrowed from SS and other intra-government holdings to pay down the public debt.

But I digress, it is my opinion that SS needs to be abolished it's intent was to aid the elderly and disabled but it has turned out to be something more.

As I said before, perhaps you're right and it should be abolished. However, thinking that and believing it will actually happen is two entirely different matters.

We are stuck with Social Security! There are no If's, Butt's, or Or's on the matter. It is merely the way it is!

Now, we will either reform it..............and making it solvent is actually one of the easier crisis facing us. If we had some politicians with an ounce of courage, Social Security could be put into the Black for decades to come the same way that was done by Reagan and Tip O'Neill ..........with modest taxes and with small cuts in benefits.

But, as long as there are people who think Social Security should be abolished, and who support candidates who vow to do nothing about it, the closer we get to what Lonestar_logic predicts........being "well on our way to following Greece."

I see that Lonestar_logic would prefer replacing Social Security with individual retirement accounts. Perhaps there is merit in that argument, and perhaps not. But, two things on the subject.............Number 1, and most importantly, it just isn't going to happen! There is no way.........NO WAY....... our cowardly politicians will ever do it. It's a pipe dream in the extreme.

But, Number 2, since many of us like to fantasize about such thinks as World Peace and courageous politicians, and should we again get to a point, as we did in Bush's second term, and actually start talking about individual retirement accounts................how would you solve the problem that was unsolvable at that time............how do we come up with the trillions of dollars to fund the transistion?