CDZ What ever happened to the ozone layer?

[SSDD]

Wasn't its disappearance going to kill us by now? This is the problem with climate "scientists." They are dishonest shills for the highest bidders.

Don't you know? Ten years of research and effort to identify and ban CFC's for the release of chlorine has slowly allowed the ozone to gradually heal. The problem is CFCs are so inert they stay around a long time. Had we not done that and the ozone gone away, no life could live above water in the unshielded UV light of the Sun.

We did this topic in the Enviro forum about a month ago... Never seen a decrease in the measured holes since the ban.. More recent thinking is that this is a "thermal safety valve" in the upper atmos.. Much like El Ninos are the safety valves for warming waters in the Pacific..

If "no life could live" with it at the time of the ban -- then we'd all be dead by now...

IN FACT -- the max diameters/depths of the holes stabilized BEFORE the ban had a considerable possible impact...

The graphs are in that other thread...

The "OZONE HOLE" scam was the pre-curser to the Global Warmists movement.

All very possible and likely. That not disputed. At the south pole, the angle of sun and depth of atmosphere minimize the effects of UV light. Problem is that we are talking about 2019 today. Possible destruction of the Ozone layer was discovered and cogitated beginning in the 1970s. Had they been right and not taken the efforts they did then, it could be very bad for today. Better to have acted and been wrong than to have not acted and been right. We can live without CFCs.

The team that "discovered" the ozone "hole" went to Antarctica expecting to find it. They hypothesized that it would be there because they thought that less incoming UV at the southern pole, and the elevation, and the temperature would result in a thinning, or outright absence of ozone. They were proved correct and then went to the Arctic and found the same thing only to a lesser degree...the differences being due to lack of any land mass and warmer temperatures...

Dupont bought a couple of politicians and hijacked the environmental movement in a successful effort to transform a perfectly natural phenomenon into a crisis that required the banning of an entire class of chemicals so that they could sell a chemical that they had a patent on but had no market for because of what it cost, and the fact that it wasn't as good as the old chemical that was already on the market.

There never was a crisis...there never was anything that there hadn't always been except for a manufactured alarm...

 

[toobfreak]

No, that would be that it was only a 1 hour program written for the average viewer.

And they didn't bother to mention the abundant natural factors that have a large effect on ozone formation and depletion because the average viewer is only interested in blaming the ozone hole on CFC's. Is that what you are claiming?

Don't you think the average viewer might be interested in the truth rather than a false narrative that simply doesn't make any scientific sense? Don't you think that the average viewer might be interested in the fact that the ozone "hole" hasn't gotten any smaller since CFC's were banned and we all are paying more for practically everything because of it? You don't think the average viewer would be interested in hearing the truth rather than a fantasy?

But I'm not an average viewer, I'm a scientist with a background in physics.

If that is so, then why would you believe that it is going to take a long time for the ozone "hole" to heal when all the ozone between 20 and 30 km in altitude is turning over every 70 seconds or so? And why would you even begin to believe that a molecule that is present at a concentration of 3 parts per BILLION represents any sort of threat to the ozone layer when there are plenty of natural reactants and catalysts present in the ozone layer at a concentration of 780,000 parts per million? Those two facts alone should be raising big red flags with anyone with any sort of scientific background.

But what I'm learning here is that you're also simply a bad loser who doesn't take to listening to the other POV because like so many on BOTH sides of the aisle, you both are totally convinced that only your side, your data can be right and that for the one to be right, the other MUST be wrong.

I don't like listening to propaganda put together to support an alarmist narrative. Actual science is more interested in the factors that cast doubt on a hypothesis than the factors that support it. I have been waiting since the ozone "crisis" first came into existence for any sort of serious study that carefully examined the various natural factors that have large effects on the production and depletion of ozone and then have those natural factors ruled out in favor of CFC's for the ozone holes based on some rational, scientifically valid reason. Not one such study has ever happened. Not one. When the only narrative being put forth by so called science is nothing but alarmist claptrap, I am surprised that anyone with any scientific background would be willing to listen with anything other than a great big boulder sized grain of salt.

I am perfectly willing, and in fact, eager to listen to the other side, if they are providing valid scientific reasons, that my point of view is incorrect, and studies to back them up. The ozone crisis isn't about science though...it is pure propaganda...fearmongering...and a direct jump to an assumption for cause that simply isn't based on any rational, scientifically valid reasoning...and certainly isn't supported by the actual science and field studies.

Like I said, where were you in the 70s and 80s proving this all a big scare for nothing?
Why don't you make a documentary proving the whole CFC thing was a scam?
And why don't you take the matter up with PBS and Nova and not me?
I don't give a flying crap what aerosol they use in my spray deodorant.
What you're really saying is that nothing ever happened to the ozone layer at all. It always was this way and always will be.
And I'll I ever said is that we might know that now after the fact, but in the 1970s not being sure they did the right thing for that time.

 

[SSDD]

Like I said, where were you in the 70s and 80s proving this all a big scare for nothing?

The evidence proves that it was all a big scare...but it wasn't for nothing....it was for billions of dollars.

Why don't you make a documentary proving the whole CFC thing was a scam?

Good luck getting funding for anything that doesn't agree with the consensus narrative.

What you're really saying is that nothing ever happened to the ozone layer at all. It always was this way and always will be.

Precisely.

And I'll I ever said is that we might know that now after the fact, but in the 1970s not being sure they did the right thing for that time.

We knew then. No actual studies were ever done that examined the natural factors effecting O3 formation and depletion. That is the whole point. It was never about the science...it was about the money. Had any actual study been done that was honestly looking for the truth, the whole scheme would have never gotten any traction. All of the money spent on the "science" was provided by people who expected a certain finding.

 

[candycorn]

Perhaps cut the scientists some slack.

They are asked to make literally global calculations based on imperfect data.

Where I won’t cut the scientists some slack is this; if they don’t know the answer…say “I don’t know the answer”. I Imagine many of them did and were asked to proffer their best educated estimated which, of course, in our politically charged atmosphere becomes “Here is what they think….”

 

[SSDD]

Perhaps cut the scientists some slack.

Had they done the work that was required and seriously considered the numerous natural factors that have a large effect on ozone formation and depletion and got it wrong, then they would deserve some slack. They didn't do the work that was called for...they jumped straight to blaming the ozone "hole" on CFC's precisely as they were paid to do. As such, they deserve nothing but contempt.

The scientists who discovered the hole were doing real science...They went down there expecting to find a hole because there was less UV coming in from the sun at the pole and once they confirmed their hypothesis to be correct, they were going to the arctic expecting to find a smaller hole there.

No mention of their work was made during the lead up to the "crisis"...CFC's were blamed and no other real work was done beyond working people into a frenzy with pseudoscience in order to get freon banned.

They are asked to make literally global calculations based on imperfect data.

Our knowledge of the ozone layer hasn't changed that much since way back then. We have satellite photos of the hole and can watch it change from season to season, but the fundamentals are the same now as they were then. Incoming UV breaks O2 molecules in the stratosphere and those free O atoms reform into O2 or O3...Less incoming UV at the poles equals less ozone. We knew all that back then. It was basic chemistry.

They were paid to find that a lonely molecule present at a concentration of 3 parts per BILLION was destroying all the ozone and we were all going to die from cancer...they found what they were paid to find and never mentioned the fact that natural reactants and catalysts which also break down ozone were present at a concentration of 780,000 parts per million..nor did they mention the fact that every ozone molecule in the ozone layer is destroyed and replaced every 16 to 70 minutes...The life expectancy of an ozone molecule in the stratosphere is between 1000 and 4200 seconds

Where I won’t cut the scientists some slack is this; if they don’t know the answer…say “I don’t know the answer”.

They knew the answer...they knew that CFC's were not destroying the ozone layer...they knew that the entire ozone layer overturns every hour or so...they knew the chemistry and they knew the facts...they ignored them and published the results they were paid to publish.

 

[Likkmee]

Zimmerman bought it.