What do you want your economy to do

[asterism]

So, Akelch, I really was hoping for a rational discussion, not a political one. Your statements are becoming more and more obviously political. But, lets address them:

You have a skewed view of the marketplace and the role Government plays.

Look, you keep saying that. Looks like your opinion. Good for you. But your opinion is kind of like an ass hole. Everyone has one. But without information, opinions are really a waste of time. And you seem to lack any information to back up what you say.

About the Fed. Why is it that only one bank can create our money? Who gave them that power? Who owns the Fed? Why are they out of the jurisdiction of congress?

See what I mean. Before you criticize something, try to understand something about it. Only they can create money because that is the way we, through our representatives in congress, wanted it when the Fed was created in about 1913. Who created the Fed?? See above. Congress gave them that power. We own them, as they are a public entity. And they are out of the jurisdiction of congress as far as day to day decesions because we did not want a large amount of political influence in the affairs of the central bank.

Depends on what you mean by control. They can add to or subtract from the total currency in the US. that is about it. They set short term interest rates, on which most interest rates are based. Yes. [ Really?? Is this what you believe?? Perhaps you have some proof? Because, you see, they are tasked with stabalizing the economy, NOT creating depressions. I have to say, this particular statement strikes me as political, and without merit.
...
I guess you could call it a monopoly, but among people of ration, you would find yourself lonesome. Again, you are making a political accusation, with no basis in reality. Unless you think that they have some product that they are selling us. Which they do not. They are a public REGULATORY agency. You really need to take an hour on the web to study the fed before making these accusations. Makes you look ignorant.

And why do they not have competition?

See above. And because, if you think about it, having two agencies of this kind would be really, really stupid. And destructive. Again, you are simply making political arguments. They look to be from the Libertarian side of the political/economic spectrum.

I would go as far as to say they control our government.

Again, opinion. They regulate financial areas of our country. But again, your statement is political. You show no proof of an obviously political and nonsensical statement.

So, Akelch, I really was hoping for a rational discussion, not a political one.

Well, no, ed, it just helps to show that ed is a con tool. But there is nothing new there. So, basically, just another minute I can not get back.

Uh huh....

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

Opportunity makes healthy economies possible.
Opportunity is ALL that makes healthy economies possible.
There are three essential governors of opportunity in healthy economies.

Demand
Rule of law is the second element.
Basic regulations are critical elements in large economies.

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Workers with money create demand.
Rule of law ensures equal access to and from demand.
Basic regulation ensures competition does not endanger public well being.

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Since 1980 many of the most important financial and competition regulations that made the 1950s to 1980s the most even tempered and productive years in US history have been eliminated or gone unenforced. The 1980s - 2008 economies built by anti-Ameriocan pencil pushing financial crooks instead of all-American industrial production are now proven to be more ReagaNUT hot air fueled by fantasy, delusion - AND DEBT.

Both major US political parties share the blame equally. Nutballs went large hiding behind flag and cross as they looted the treasury, while freakshow liberal zealots pissed slightly less money down the human potential drain. Republicans and Democrats equally share blame for pork projects for friends, relatives and corporate sponsors all around the US.

----------------------------

What tickles me is the lack of understanding of "economies of scale". Everything has a point of diminishing returns (diminishing efficiencies). For most organizations economies of scale begin to evaporate at the regional US level as a matter of fact, but were successfully sold to the public because GROSS profits continued to increase beyond national markets on into international levels. A billion dollars sounds like a billion dollars, but within similar industries and taking a billion dollar profit as the example, an 8% profit paying good wages and sustaining a peaceful healthy nation pays more dividends - has more "economies of scale" - than a 15% profit built on the backs of children and indentured labor in heathen hellholes.

For example, the reason so much customer service sucks now (think "Peggy" from some phone center outside the US) is international corporations know most consumers have been dumbed down by public education to the point they aren't smart enough to find satisfactory competitors - if they exist, another diminishing probability.

To conclude, there is no free lunch and civilization cannot survive unfettered markets. The challenge is where to regulate and to what extent. Today there are too many bad regulations enforced to limit competition by directing demand to chosen vendors and too many good regulations destroyed by ReagaNUT/ClintoNUT corporatists for a healthy eocnomy to exist.

This is to a great extent the result of corporatist presidents like Reagan, Clinton, the inheritor Junebug Bush and the fool Obama.

No political partisan here, but I know failure when I see it. The nation that re-elected a proven failure like Junebug Bush was in 2004 deserves every millimeter of the nightmare fucking he gave them. No question Junebug Bush's failures elected Obama - who seems like a fine man despite his lack of understanding of politics and economics. In other words the fucking that dope-addled ratty little Bush Leaguer from Tejas gave America continues to hold back the nation's economy to this day and the evidence is the quality of debate on capital hill.

It doesn't matter what makes a good economy is my point. America's well has been poisoned to the point politics don't work and corporations are running amok.

Enjoy, partisans. You sure earned it.

 

[Rshermr]

Thanks. Nice to hear a different take. So, yes, american workers will be there if paying jobs appear. The problem is that most "paying jobs" have been manufacturing jobs. So, what do we do to increase manufacturing jobs.
From what you mention:
1. Stop paying companies to offshore their work.
2. Maybe start incentivizing companies through taxes to keep jobs in the US??
3. Maybe start deincentivizing companies through taxes to offshore jobs??

 

[akelch]

Perhaps you have some proof of that completely ignorant statement.

Inflating the money supply (printing money) reduces the purchasing power, resulting in higher prices. This is basic economics.

Right. And you think that is responsible for todays gas prices??? Got proof, or just another statement out of your ass???

It's not the whole reason but it is part of it. World demand and regulations play large part to.

 

[asterism]

Thanks. Nice to hear a different take. So, yes, american workers will be there if paying jobs appear. The problem is that most "paying jobs" have been manufacturing jobs. So, what do we do to increase manufacturing jobs.
From what you mention:
1. Stop paying companies to offshore their work.
2. Maybe start incentivizing companies through taxes to keep jobs in the US??
3. Maybe start deincentivizing companies through taxes to offshore jobs??

No company (outside of GM, Chrysler and Fisker) gets paid to offshore work.

The incentives given out by the gaggle of idiots in this administration have not worked. Perahps a change in philosophy is in order - at the top.

 

[Rshermr]

So, Asterism says:

I certainly am concerned, I just know that the protectionist union model doesn't work.

But, of course, the german unions are every bit as protectionist as those of the US. And the unions cover a much. much larger percent of workers than here.

Take a look at Germany's workforce. It's adaptable and market-driven,

I would suggest that the German workforce produces what it is told to produce. Are you saying that the german worker is innately different than the US worker?? Seems a major stretch to me. Human nature tends to not be much different from country to country. So, are there laws related to unions that are different in Germany??

it doesn't have productivity limits (when the union tells workers to be less productive)

I am unaware of any such "productivity limits" . Do you have any reference that proves that accusation?? Because I suspect it would be illegal.

However, if you say us workers are not productive, you may want to look at actual data. Compared to China, for instance, consider:
However, productivity is still a massive issue. IHS's Head of World Industry Services Mark Killon points out: “The US has a huge productivity advantage in that it produced only slightly less than China’s manufacturing output in 2010 but with 11.5 million workers compared to the 100 million employed in the same sector in China.”
China vs. US: Manufacturing comparison - Manufacturing Digital
That would suggest that productivity of us workers is something like 9 times that of China. I am not sure even Germany can say that.

and Germany's unions do not use violence and thuggery when they don't get their way.

I am aware of violence and thuggery from both sides of the worker management disputes, but very, very little over recent years. Do you have references to such thuggery in large enough amounts to be of concern???

Nobody has to bribe anyone to "get into the union" in Germany.

Unions today are looking hard for workers. Where are the bribes occuring??? Somehow, i missed that one.

Regardless, Germany's manufacturing sector is VERY small compared to the US. Their overall methods would not produce the same results on a mass scale.

Depends on what you think is VERY small. Germany is the fourth largest manufacturing country worldwide, only slightly behind Japan. At over $600B annually, it is overf 1/3 the size of that of the US, or China. So, I do not buy your contention that we should not look at germany to see what they are doing. Perhaps you have some evidence that I have not seen.

 

[Rshermr]

Inflating the money supply (printing money) reduces the purchasing power, resulting in higher prices. This is basic economics.

Right. And you think that is responsible for todays gas prices??? Got proof, or just another statement out of your ass???

It's not the whole reason but it is part of it. World demand and regulations play large part to.

Again, supply is up and demand is down for gas. And if you believe regulations have increased, what is the evidence.

 

[asterism]

So, Asterism says:

I certainly am concerned, I just know that the protectionist union model doesn't work.

But, of course, the german unions are every bit as protectionist as those of the US. And the unions cover a much. much larger percent of workers than here.

Take a look at Germany's workforce. It's adaptable and market-driven,

I would suggest that the German workforce produces what it is told to produce. Are you saying that the german worker is innately different than the US worker?? Seems a major stretch to me. Human nature tends to not be much different from country to country. So, are there laws related to unions that are different in Germany??


I am unaware of any such "productivity limits" . Do you have any reference that proves that accusation?? Because I suspect it would be illegal.

However, if you say us workers are not productive, you may want to look at actual data. Compared to China, for instance, consider:
However, productivity is still a massive issue. IHS's Head of World Industry Services Mark Killon points out: “The US has a huge productivity advantage in that it produced only slightly less than China’s manufacturing output in 2010 but with 11.5 million workers compared to the 100 million employed in the same sector in China.”
China vs. US: Manufacturing comparison - Manufacturing Digital
That would suggest that productivity of us workers is something like 9 times that of China. I am not sure even Germany can say that.


I am aware of violence and thuggery from both sides of the worker management disputes, but very, very little over recent years. Do you have references to such thuggery in large enough amounts to be of concern???

Nobody has to bribe anyone to "get into the union" in Germany.

Unions today are looking hard for workers. Where are the bribes occuring??? Somehow, i missed that one.

Regardless, Germany's manufacturing sector is VERY small compared to the US. Their overall methods would not produce the same results on a mass scale.

Depends on what you think is VERY small. Germany is the fourth largest manufacturing country worldwide, only slightly behind Japan. At over $600B annually, it is overf 1/3 the size of that of the US, or China. So, I do not buy your contention that we should not look at germany to see what they are doing. Perhaps you have some evidence that I have not seen.

Labor Force: 43.67 million (2011 est.)
industry: 24.6%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html

That's under 11 Million.

Go ahead and try to explain how a solution that works for 11 million people will do the same for 30 million people here.

 

[Rshermr]

So, Asterism says:

I certainly am concerned, I just know that the protectionist union model doesn't work.

But, of course, the german unions are every bit as protectionist as those of the US. And the unions cover a much. much larger percent of workers than here.


I would suggest that the German workforce produces what it is told to produce. Are you saying that the german worker is innately different than the US worker?? Seems a major stretch to me. Human nature tends to not be much different from country to country. So, are there laws related to unions that are different in Germany??


I am unaware of any such "productivity limits" . Do you have any reference that proves that accusation?? Because I suspect it would be illegal.

However, if you say us workers are not productive, you may want to look at actual data. Compared to China, for instance, consider:
However, productivity is still a massive issue. IHS's Head of World Industry Services Mark Killon points out: “The US has a huge productivity advantage in that it produced only slightly less than China’s manufacturing output in 2010 but with 11.5 million workers compared to the 100 million employed in the same sector in China.”
China vs. US: Manufacturing comparison - Manufacturing Digital
That would suggest that productivity of us workers is something like 9 times that of China. I am not sure even Germany can say that.


I am aware of violence and thuggery from both sides of the worker management disputes, but very, very little over recent years. Do you have references to such thuggery in large enough amounts to be of concern???


Unions today are looking hard for workers. Where are the bribes occuring??? Somehow, i missed that one.

Regardless, Germany's manufacturing sector is VERY small compared to the US. Their overall methods would not produce the same results on a mass scale.

Depends on what you think is VERY small. Germany is the fourth largest manufacturing country worldwide, only slightly behind Japan. At over $600B annually, it is overf 1/3 the size of that of the US, or China. So, I do not buy your contention that we should not look at germany to see what they are doing. Perhaps you have some evidence that I have not seen.

Labor Force: 43.67 million (2011 est.)
industry: 24.6%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html

That's under 11 Million.

Go ahead and try to explain how a solution that works for 11 million people will do the same for 30 million people here.

Not sure why you think 11 million is too small a sample. But it appears that you prefer a political answer, so more power to you.

 

[akelch]

Right. And you think that is responsible for todays gas prices??? Got proof, or just another statement out of your ass???

It's not the whole reason but it is part of it. World demand and regulations play large part to.

Again, supply is up and demand is down for gas. And if you believe regulations have increased, what is the evidence.

It's a global market
http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx

You have to look at all energy regulations. One effects the other.
http://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFil...icityOilandGasRegulationintheUnitedStates.pdf

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

So, I do not buy your contention that we should not look at germany to see what they are doing.

too stupid!!! if Europe can't emulate Germany when they are neighbors with nearly identical political philosophies then we sure cant!! And who would want to given they are in recession and only slightly more prosperous than Arkansas one of our poorest states

Also, Germany has always dominated Europe. I had a history professor who said if they can't take it in war they'll just buy it!!

Also, they got lucky with super high margin way over priced cars: Mercedes, BWM, Porsche, Audi. If that luck ends they are doomed!