CDZ What count as "lies" in society?

[grbb]

Any effort to make people believe false things are lying if the purpose is to see whether somebody is trustworthy or not.

 

[edthecynic]

A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.

If you say something you believe to be true, and it's not, that's a mistatement, or an honest mistake, not a lie.

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

 

[Dragonlady]

What I mean by lying means

1. Giving false impression
2. So others do things that hurt their interests
3. That benefit the liars

Also, giving false impressions on the credibility of a statement is a lie too to me. That's because the credibility of a statement is a statement by itself. Hence misrepresenting that is a lie too. So if a statement is most likely false, or are not supported by evidence, but said confidently as if it's the truth, with expectation that people can't check the truth easily, it's a lie.

Many lies are very excusable
1. A person can believe their own statement. In religion this happens through "faith". So people can say anything and claim that he is not lying because he believe what he said is true. A person can say give me $1 million dollar because that's what God's want, and he won't be charged with fraud unless someone can proof beyond reasonable doubt he wants the money.
2. The statement can be arguable or do not have precise meaning.
3. The statement can be technically correct.
4. The lie is done legally.

I wonder if there is a book that does more analysis on this.

I will give you a sample.

An insurance salesman sell "investment" to a customer. The customer specifically ask that he wants only small insurance and the rest can be investments. The salesman says that all money are invested. Turns out, only 47% of the money are invested like regular mutual fund. The rest are gone in fees that the customer doesn't know when buying.

Is this lying?

Is this excusable?

How many are like this?

Are so many things grey area like this?

"Excusable lies" huh ??

Where did YOU go to Sunday School ??

Hillary lied her whole life and it cost her the Presidency.

The women voters would not vote for her.

They did not want another Nixon.

Hillary lies much much less than Trump who lies more than any other candidate in the election.

Anyone who says that Clinton lost because she lies, is a complete fool who has been brainwashed by Republican lies about the Clinton's.

Thank you for proving my point.



Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[OldLady]

A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.

If you say something you believe to be true, and it's not, that's a mistatement, or an honest mistake, not a lie.

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

 

[yiostheoy]

What I mean by lying means

1. Giving false impression
2. So others do things that hurt their interests
3. That benefit the liars

Also, giving false impressions on the credibility of a statement is a lie too to me. That's because the credibility of a statement is a statement by itself. Hence misrepresenting that is a lie too. So if a statement is most likely false, or are not supported by evidence, but said confidently as if it's the truth, with expectation that people can't check the truth easily, it's a lie.

Many lies are very excusable
1. A person can believe their own statement. In religion this happens through "faith". So people can say anything and claim that he is not lying because he believe what he said is true. A person can say give me $1 million dollar because that's what God's want, and he won't be charged with fraud unless someone can proof beyond reasonable doubt he wants the money.
2. The statement can be arguable or do not have precise meaning.
3. The statement can be technically correct.
4. The lie is done legally.

I wonder if there is a book that does more analysis on this.

I will give you a sample.

An insurance salesman sell "investment" to a customer. The customer specifically ask that he wants only small insurance and the rest can be investments. The salesman says that all money are invested. Turns out, only 47% of the money are invested like regular mutual fund. The rest are gone in fees that the customer doesn't know when buying.

Is this lying?

Is this excusable?

How many are like this?

Are so many things grey area like this?

Giving false impressions are girlie lies.

Girlies lie like this every minute of every day.

They use makeup to paint their faces.

They use false teats.

They wear high heels.

They lie through their teeth.

If you are a girlie or a girlie-man, then you are a liar.

 

[yiostheoy]

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

"What Is Truth" is a definitional question of both ancient and modern Philosophy.

In Philosophy deception of any kind is sophistry and therefore all lies.

This is a formal way of saying what you are trying to say too, Granny.

But in case you never took any Philosophy there you now have it.

 

[yiostheoy]

Hillary lies much much less than Trump ...

This is a lie.

 

[OldLady]

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

"What Is Truth" is a definitional question of both ancient and modern Philosophy.

In Philosophy deception of any kind is sophistry and therefore all lies.

This is a formal way of saying what you are trying to say too, Granny.

But in case you never took any Philosophy there you now have it.

I gave my philosophy professor grey hair. Couldn't get into it; too linear, but thanks for the terminology.

 

[edthecynic]

A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.

If you say something you believe to be true, and it's not, that's a mistatement, or an honest mistake, not a lie.

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[OldLady]

A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.

If you say something you believe to be true, and it's not, that's a mistatement, or an honest mistake, not a lie.

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

 

[edthecynic]

A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.

If you say something you believe to be true, and it's not, that's a mistatement, or an honest mistake, not a lie.

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

 

[OldLady]

A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.

If you say something you believe to be true, and it's not, that's a mistatement, or an honest mistake, not a lie.

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

If you are going to respond in nothing but cryptic quotes, you've got to expect some confusion.

 

[edthecynic]

I would disagree! They are both lies.

The first statement is a premeditated lie.

The second is the Reagan Rationalization for lying. If you say something that is not true, you are telling a lie. That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

If you are going to respond in nothing but cryptic quotes, you've got to expect some confusion.

There is nothing confusing, spreading rumors you do not know to be true is gossip, not an honest mistake simply because you BELIEVE they are true.

 

[OldLady]

You can't change the definition of "lie," unless you're three and not old enough to grasp the fact that every word that comes out of your mouth that doesn't get fulfilled is a "lie." Remember that age, when you tell the kids "We're going to the beach on Saturday," and then the car breaks down or it rains like hell, and the kids wail "You lied!"
Lying is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone with information you know to be false.
If it is not deliberate or not known that it is false, it is not a lie.
You need to either grow up or find another word.

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

If you are going to respond in nothing but cryptic quotes, you've got to expect some confusion.

There is nothing confusing, spreading rumors you do not know to be true is gossip, not an honest mistake simply because you BELIEVE they are true.

Can you give me an example of where the media has been "gossiping," lately? Other than pizzagate?

 

[Dragonlady]

Much of the Republican witch hunt against the Clinton's was based on gossip. The author of the book slandering the Clinton Foundation as a "pay for play" bribery scam, said right up front that he had no evidence to support any of the allegations in his book, but that the "optics look bad".

As with the other Clinton "scandals", something looks off, or there is a potential issue, and Republicans keep hammering away with gossip, and innuendo until they convince some government office - Congress, IRS, etc., to investigate the allegations, at taxpayers expense, of course. The investigation proceeds, no witnesses come forward, no evidence was found, no charges are laid, and the Clintons are cleared. For about 2 seconds, the Republicans say there was no evidence of wrong doing by the Clintons.

Next they have a new rumour to batter into the American subconscious, but instead of continuing to acknowledge that the Clinton's have been cleared, they continue with the original allegations, as if the Clintons were guilty of it and "got away with it". As the years went by, the laundry list of the things the "Clintons got away with" grew and grew until even Democrats and others believed the Republicans lies.

It took them 25 years, and they had a lot of help this time from the Russian hackers and fake news creeps, but they succeeded.

 

[edthecynic]

'Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.'

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

If you are going to respond in nothing but cryptic quotes, you've got to expect some confusion.

There is nothing confusing, spreading rumors you do not know to be true is gossip, not an honest mistake simply because you BELIEVE they are true.

Can you give me an example of where the media has been "gossiping," lately? Other than pizzagate?

The MSM is not spreading the "pizzagate" lie, that is the "alternative" media.

 

[OldLady]

Everyone is vulnerable to mistakes at times, Ed. Are you saying that the MSM is consciously choosing to live in a bubble and report one side of the story, not knowing or wanting to know the other? When I watch the news, I hear the commentators arguing against points made by the "other side," so I believe that is not exactly true.

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

If you are going to respond in nothing but cryptic quotes, you've got to expect some confusion.

There is nothing confusing, spreading rumors you do not know to be true is gossip, not an honest mistake simply because you BELIEVE they are true.

Can you give me an example of where the media has been "gossiping," lately? Other than pizzagate?

The MSM is not spreading the "pizzagate" lie, that is the "alternative" media.

You disagreed with Dragonlady, who said we need to tell an untruth deliberately in order to be a "liar." You said it does not have to be intentional or deliberate:
That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.
So I am asking you for an example of the "gossip" you apparently believe the MSM is spreading.

 

[edthecynic]

How did you get from gossip to legitimate news?

Fire and swords are slow engines of destruction, compared to the tongue of a Gossip.
Richard Steele

If you are going to respond in nothing but cryptic quotes, you've got to expect some confusion.

There is nothing confusing, spreading rumors you do not know to be true is gossip, not an honest mistake simply because you BELIEVE they are true.

Can you give me an example of where the media has been "gossiping," lately? Other than pizzagate?

The MSM is not spreading the "pizzagate" lie, that is the "alternative" media.

You disagreed with Dragonlady, who said we need to tell an untruth deliberately in order to be a "liar." You said it does not have to be intentional or deliberate:
That you are saying things you do not know to be true makes you a "gossip." There is nothing honest about gossip. The person that sincerely believes a lie they are telling is true is the most effective and persuasive liar, that is why gossip is more powerful than a premeditated lie.
So I am asking you for an example of the "gossip" you apparently believe the MSM is spreading.

Again, when did I say the "MSM" was spreading gossip? that is YOUR Straw Man!!!

And I already gave you an example of someone telling a lie and then rationalizing that their lie was an honest mistake.

Reagan's first statement was a lie when he told it no matter what his "heart" told him. To the Right, St Ronnie was not lying when he told a lie and they use that same rationalization when they lie and pretend they believe their own lies. Reagan's first statement was nothing but gossip if he truly didn't know it was a lie, but his second statement rationalizes that he is "STILL" not lying because he believes it is true even though he knows it isn't from the facts and evidence.
Dragonlady merely endorsed the Reagan Rationalization for lying.

In spite of the wildly speculative and false stories of arms for hostages and alleged ransom payments, we did not—repeat, did not—trade weapons or anything else for hostages, nor will we."
- Ronald Reagan, denying the Iran-Contra Affair, November 1986

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not."
- Ronald Reagan, admitting the Iran-Contra Affair, March 1987