What are/should be Israel's plans for the West Bank?

[Shogun]

So you're asking the US to give back California and Texas?

Use your head. Do you think for a second Israel is going to make it so they don't exist.

Now you know why I think you "ohhhhhhhhh... the poor palestinians"-types are pretty much full of it, particularly given that you only believe information that is terrorist propaganda.

i assure you, Jillian, if ATZLAN were to be saught by mexicans wanting their homeland back (jews) then you will see exactly how indegenous peeps react (pals) when America defends itself. Does OUR 200 years minimize the hisotric claim by latinos?


also, sorry, you don't get to just claim jerusalem. It may seem like Israel gets to just CLAIM what it wants but compramize is a two way street. This shows me how willing you REALLY are to achieve peace. The answer, of course, is "not much if it means keeping israel from dominating the shit out of pals". Posession of Israel comes and goes. You might be a wiser person if you take this window of opportunity to achieve peace rather than let your zionist pride keep the cycle moving along.

 

[M14 Shooter]

True. Or, looking to historical precedents, they could set up gas chambers.

Oh, that's so CLEVER!! And I bet you thought it was relevant and useful too!!



After WW2, Germans were forcibly removed to Germany
Why can't the Palestinians be forcibly removed to Jordan?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Now... I can also promise you that the palestinians would NEVER agree to the above or anything like it. Their interest isn't in being a self-governing, autonomous people. Their interest is in sending Jews to the sea. And I don't care how sympathetic one might be to them... it's unacceptable to ask any people to lay down and die.

I agree with that. I also agree that turning the West Bank over to the Palestinians is a potential solution.

But what has to be made clear about any such thing is that Palestine must then be held accountable for their border security -- that is, they must not allow terrorists to attack Israel from across their border. It should be clear that any such attacks will be taken as an act of war from Palestine, and dealt with accordingly, thru force.

The Palestinians will never accept THAT either.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If course they would never agree to such a thing. NOR SHOULD THEY. after all, this was fousted upon them by Israel and, as you say, it is unacceptable to ask anyone to lay down and die. -----but it is acceptable to ask them to retract their ills and illgotten gains. Israel is not willing to do that

Why should the Paletiians not agree to the West Bank as sovereign Palestinian state?

 

[Shogun]

Oh, that's so CLEVER!! And I bet you thought it was relevant and useful too!!



After WW2, Germans were forcibly removed to Germany
Why can't the Palestinians be forcibly removed to Jordan?

of COURSE it's not relevant!

NOTHING is relevant or true if it hinders the chosen race from having their motherland!


definitions.. history... just a tool of jooo hating antisemites, lemme tellya.

 

[M14 Shooter]

 

[Shogun]

oh I KNOW! why pay attention to how Israel treats pals when there are so many muslims around that all look the same anyway!


show me another masterpiece of propeganda, Dr. Geobbles!

Hell, Ill even match you piece for piece with Nazi material of the exact same lame sort, buddy.... If you dont like being compared to nazis then perpahs you should stop acting like one.

 

[Ruby]

Oh, that's so CLEVER!! And I bet you thought it was relevant and useful too!!



After WW2, Germans were forcibly removed to Germany
Why can't the Palestinians be forcibly removed to Jordan?

Palestinians are not from Jordan. The long list of Palestinian towns and villages were already given and they have lived there since the 7th century, there is no justification to remove them and relocate them nor is it moral or legal.

NO reason to support genocide, but you seem to do so anyway.

 

[Ruby]

Why should the Paletiians not agree to the West Bank as sovereign Palestinian state?

First of all its not nearly enough to support their state and it continues to be plagued with Isreali roads and settlements and means to reach Gaza they also have to submit to Israel. In essence the deal that has been offered Palestinians was nothing more than a permanant occupation....no state would ever agree to submit to another nation in some permanant occupation status.

Since the US is soo supportive of a jewish nation, why isnt the US giving up land for it?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Palestinians are not from Jordan.

In May 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan.

 

[Shogun]

yea dude...



and genocide just isnt genocide unless the ethnic cleansee dies off in a couple hours...


SUUUUUUUUUUUURE.

 

[M14 Shooter]

First of all its not nearly enough to support their state and it continues to be plagued with Isreali roads and settlements and means to reach Gaza they also have to submit to Israel.

None of these thngs will be there, if the West Bank becomes the State of Palestine.

So, I ask again:
Why should the Paletinians not agree to the West Bank as the sovereign Palestinian state?

 

[Shogun]

uh, because it's no better than throwing them on a reservation?


you know..


LIKE A FUCKING NATIVE AMERICAN?

Indeed, why wouldnt those pesky fucking injuns just accept the reservation instead of reacting to manifest destiny?!?!?!

http://www.nps.gov/history/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ResMAP.HTM

 

[Ruby]

None of these thngs will be there, if the West Bank becomes the State of Palestine.

So, I ask again:
Why should the Paletinians not agree to the West Bank as the sovereign Palestinian state?

It is not enough land to support their population. Those settlements and roads you say "wont be there" is a total fantasy...they arent going to dismantle them. They havent ever been able to dismantle large settlements and even the small ones go right back up after the press makes a big deal over a small one being dismantled.

Why cant they just go back to 67 borders?

 

[M14 Shooter]

It is not enough land to support their population.

And so, how did they support their population before Israel took the WB?

Those settlements and roads you say "wont be there" is a total fantasy...they arent going to dismantle them.

Yes, they will -- that's the thing about being sovereign: Other countries dont get to tell you what to do inside your own state.

Why cant they just go back to 67 borders?

Giving back the WB IS going back to the May 1967 border.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/borders.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_land_1948.php

So...
Why should the Paletinians not agree to the West Bank as the sovereign Palestinian state?

 

[Ruby]

For anyone honestly interested here is exactly the plans for the palestinians. The leaders of Israel have been quite consistant.

http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989

But I thought they didnt do things like that or support things like that?

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

A bit of honesty, and we see that a lot. Most of them seem to be VERY aware that they are committing genocide and make a definitive CHOICE to do so.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

I guess Sharon feels that people will just "forget" the genocide of the palestinians and that will make it all ok.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

More encouragement to just land grab and steal all you can...but again I kept seeing denials that Israel does this.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Downright nazi-like. It sounds just like the nazis did when they talked of exterminating the jews like rats. Dehumanize and advocate violence against the dehumanized target.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

More nazi like statements about palestinians. It seems that the zionists and leaders of Israel have plenty of racism in their policies and statements, but we are sopposed to pretend they are the VICTIM of anti-semitism when their brutal thefts, murders and genocide are condemned.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

Again just more proof that they set out to purposely get rid of palestinians which IS GENOCIDE. I love all those who like to pretend the palestinians just voluntarily left and somehow gave up their right to return to their homes.

And Gurion is certainly quite CLEAR.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

It just dosent get more direct than that. This shows a very clear pattern by the Israeli govt and leaders (zionist leaders as well) that they PLANNED the genocide of palestinians...there is no reason palestinians should have to lose their homes and their homeland....there is no moral basis you can point to and say that they deserve this or should suffer this, and certainly no reason to expect them to do so without fighting back.

 

[Ruby]

And so, how did they support their population before Israel took the WB?

They arent supporting their population well, hence the malnutrition, high infant mortality rates, disease etc. Thats current.

BEFORE Israel was created they had enough land to support their population AND enough water.

Yes, they will -- that's the thing about being sovereign: Other countries dont get to tell you what to do inside your own state.

Well then you just stumbled onto why the Isrealis are planning genocide instead and have no intention of allowing a soveriegn state and only offered them a plan that consisted of separated areas that would force palestinians to go through parts of Israel to get to other parts of palestine...a deal they couldnt accept.

Giving back the WB IS going back to the May 1967 border.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/borders.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_land_1948.php

So...
Why should the Paletinians not agree to the West Bank as the sovereign Palestinian state?

No its not, there is more land involved than just the west bank. Thats why Israel never ever once offered to go back to 67 borders but offered a peice meal deal instead.

 

[M14 Shooter]

They arent supporting their population well, hence the malnutrition, high infant mortality rates, disease etc. Thats current. BEFORE Israel was created they had enough land to support their population AND enough water.

And so, why wont giving them the land back allow them to support the population, if it supported them before?

Well then you just stumbled onto why the Isrealis are planning genocide instead and have no intention of allowing a soveriegn state and only offered them a plan that consisted of separated areas that would force palestinians to go through parts of Israel to get to other parts of palestine...a deal they couldnt accept.

Oh, I see.
They want whats theirs -- and some of what's Israel's
And, of course, you think that's fair.

No its not, there is more land involved than just the west bank. Thats why Israel never ever once offered to go back to 67 borders but offered a peice meal deal instead.

Um... I just showed you the 1967 border. West Bank.

 

[Ruby]

And so, why wont giving them the land back allow them to support the population, if it supported them before?

They werent just on the west bank before when they were able to support their population...they were actually throughout the ENTIRE AREA. Ever since they have had their lands and water stolen, they havent been able to support their population, which suits Israel just dandy.

Oh, I see.
They want whats theirs -- and some of what's Israel's
And, of course, you think that's fair.

You seem to be the cuckoo one since everything that IS Israel was STOLEN from the palestinians in the first place.

Um... I just showed you the 1967 border. West Bank.

No you didnt and why do you think that Israel NEVER offered those borders yet arab leaders including Hamas have said they would agree to those borders. Think about it.

 

[Ruby]

http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=385299

Until 2000, there was a bipartisan recognition in both Israel and the United States -- shared by Likud and Labor, Republicans and Democrats -- that Israel would not return to the 1967 borders, and would retain permanent control of a significant portion of Judea and Samaria.

In 1968, President Johnson said that ´´a return to the situation of June 4, 1967 will not bring peace. There must be secure and there must be recognized borders.´´ In 1982, President Reagan noted that ´´In the pre-1967 borders, Israel was barely 10 miles wide at its narrowest point. The bulk of Israel´s population lived within artillery range of hostile Arab armies.´´ Reagan promised, ´´I am not about to ask Israel to live that way again.´´ In 1991, the Bush administration assured Prime Minister Shamir that the ´´United States does not intend to issue a call for a return to the 1967 borders or for only cosmetic changes in these borders.´´

Secretary of State Powell´s four most recent predecessors all expressed similar sentiments. George Shultz said, ´´Israel will never negotiate from, or return to, the lines of partition or to the 1967 borders.´´ When James Baker was asked whether Judea, Samaria and Gaza are ´´occupied Arab territories´´ or disputed territories, he responded, ´´They´re clearly disputed territories. That´s what resolutions 242 and 338 are all about.´´ Warren Christopher assured Prime Minister Netanyahu, ´´Israel is entitled to secure and defensible borders.´´ Madeleine Albright stated: ´´We simply do not support the description of the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 as occupied Palestinian territory.´´

In contrast, Powell recently called the Green Line ´´a recognized border´´ and territories beyond it ´´Palestinian areas.´´

Among Israelis, there was almost unanimous agreement that secure borders require a united Jerusalem and annexation of the Jordan Valley along with a number of settlement blocs. Labor initiated settlement of the Jordan Valley and Gush Etzion, and the Allon Plan, under which Israel would keep about one-third of Judea and Samaria, guided its peace plans. In the early 1980´s Yitzhak Rabin visited Lincoln Square Synagogue and urged congregants to move to the new community of Efrat that their rabbi, Shlomo Riskin, was founding.

Even the Oslo Accords did not shatter this consensus. In October 1995, one month before he was murdered, Prime Minister Rabin told the Knesset that Israel´s permanent borders ´´will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 borders.´´ Rabin called for a ´´united Jerusalem, which will include both Ma´aleh Adumim and Givat Zeev,´´ and the annexation of the entire Jordan Valley, Gush Etzion (including Efrat) and of settlement blocs. Rabin opposed the formation of a Palestinian state, preferring a limited ´´entity which is less than a state.´´

Similarly, in a visit to Beit El, Ehud Barak promised that ´´Israelis will remain here in Beit El forever,´´ and that ´´a united Jerusalem must remain under full and unequivocal Israeli sovereignty... under no circumstances will we return to the 1967 lines.´´ After he was elected prime minister in 1999, Barak insisted that Israel could make peace while annexing towns such as Beit El, Ofra and Ariel. A June 4, 1999 Jerusalem Post editorial stated what then seemed obvious: ´´No mainstream Israeli leader, and certainly not Ehud Barak, can imagine Israel leaving the towns of Ariel, Ma´aleh Adumim, or Efrat.´´

They have been stating for many years now they will NOT go back to 67 borders nor will they obey international law and allow refugees to return AND they are continuing to expand settlements. So what fantasy land are you living in that even entertains the idea that Israel has ANY interest in actually resolving the conflict. They simply let it continue and while it does, they just take more land and use the conflict itself as the rationalization to do it.