What a Christian Pastor says about Wealth Redistribution

[aztech]

Ravi...my understanding is that the only time that Saddleback and or Rick Warren has been involved in any government funded initiative was when a large number of staff and member went to New Orleans to help after Katrina.

 

[xsited1]

just tooooo silly to answer......nor even close to reality!!!!!

I see the problem with your thinking. You believe 'General Welfare' includes anything and everything. We now have what we call a training issue. In other words, you need to learn what 'General Welfare' refers to.

The question is not silly, but since you don't know what 'General Welfare' means I can see why you would think that.

 

[Turboswede]

Do you know what the framers of the Constitution meant by 'General Welfare'?

Yes, exactly what the general population through the democratic process established as the “general welfare”. Founding fathers were bright and understood that Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis.

 

[Shogun]

Churches don't pay taxes on goods purchased? What a ridiculous concept. They most certainly do. So do other non-profits and charities.

no, they most certainly don't. Go to your local wal mart and ask the customer service desk about it.

 

[xsited1]

Yes, exactly what the general population through the democratic process established as the “general welfare”. Founding fathers were bright and understood that Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis.

So Social Security is unconstitutional?

 

[Care4all]

I see the problem with your thinking. You believe 'General Welfare' includes anything and everything. We now have what we call a training issue. In other words, you need to learn what 'General Welfare' refers to.

The question is not silly, but since you don't know what 'General Welfare' means I can see why you would think that.

I don't really know what the general welfare constitutes for certain....i think it is debateable....that's all i was saying....

And the reason i was saying the statement was silly is because no one holds a gun to your head, we live in a Democratic republic and our representatives are the ones that decide on how to spend our money and they are put in office through our vote....

so, there is no gun to anyone's head....forcing anyone by gunpoint....we live in a democratic republic, as i stated and representatives, represent us and the rule of law, rules....

care

 

[xsited1]

I don't really know what the general welfare constitutes for certain....i think it is debateable....that's all i was saying....

And the reason i was saying the statement was silly is because no one holds a gun to your head, we live in a Democratic republic and our representatives are the ones that decide on how to spend our money and they are put in office through our vote....

so, there is no gun to anyone's head....forcing anyone by gunpoint....we live in a democratic republic, as i stated and representatives, represent us and the rule of law, rules....

care

Of course someone holds a gun to your head if you don't pay taxes. Try it and see. You will be thrown in jail and if you resist arrest, you could be shot. The problem is that everything has now become an entitlement. That's ridiculous.

 

[Diuretic]

Any comments from a Biblical perspective?



Link here

Just one point. Economics and charity are two different concepts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

what is taught to elementary children...Fairness-Justice

HOW TO BE
A FAIR PERSON



Treat people the way you want to be treated.

Take Turns.

Tell the truth.

Play by the rules.

Think about how your actions will affect others.

Listen to people with an open mind.

Don't blame others for your mistakes.

Don't take advantage of other people.

Don't play favorites.
Fairness - Justice - Lesson Plan - The Six Pillars of Character - Character Counts - Popcorn Park

Rather my point. "Fair" is a playground word used by children.

"Fair" means "just, equal, equitable". Ask yourself this: what is just, equal, and equitable? Is there an objective standard somewhere by which to measure these things? Or does every person measure them differently? And if it means something different to each different person, how can it have any real meaning at all?

You can make an argument that "fair" means everyone giving exactly the same amount. You can make an argument that "fair" means everyone giving the same proportion or percentage of what they have. You can make an argument that "fair" means the proportion increases exponentially as the possessions do, so that the burden borne by everyone is felt the same. And you can CERTAINLY make the argument that "fair" means everyone having and keeping what they themselves have worked for and earned.

And if a word means everything, then it doesn't really mean anything, does it?

 

[Cecilie1200]

is the issue really charity? Or is it the "general welfare" of the public, that is being debated in meaning?

we are not forced, (so to say) to pay taxes to take care of the needy or the military....we live in a constitutional, Democratic Republic and our representaqtives VOTED for the taxes and chose how to spend them, as our representation....

care

Is the issue really charity? Did you read the OP? Charity is what we're talking about here.

If you really think we aren't forced to pay taxes, try not paying them.

 

[xsited1]

Just one point. Economics and charity are two different concepts.

And your point is?

The government has rolled charity into economic policy. Therefore, they are not separate.

 

[Turboswede]

I don't really know what the general welfare constitutes for certain....i think it is debateable....that's all i was saying....

And the reason i was saying the statement was silly is because no one holds a gun to your head, we live in a Democratic republic and our representatives are the ones that decide on how to spend our money and they are put in office through our vote....

so, there is no gun to anyone's head....forcing anyone by gunpoint....we live in a democratic republic, as i stated and representatives, represent us and the rule of law, rules....

care

As a democracy (Rather than an oligarchy) if enough Americans decided to hold a gun to someone’s head and force him to give a homeless guy $20, it would be perfectly legal, but we would probably ask first.

It’s an absurd answer to an absurd hypothetical. The problem in your hypo isn’t the gun to the head, it whether or not the people around the guy with the gun agree. That’s democracy, love it or leave it.

 

[busara]

Of course someone holds a gun to your head if you don't pay taxes. Try it and see. You will be thrown in jail and if you resist arrest, you could be shot. The problem is that everything has now become an entitlement. That's ridiculous.

why do you keep ignoring the point about having a say on your taxes through elected officials?

 

[Cecilie1200]

just tooooo silly to answer......nor even close to reality!!!!!

Isn't it? The government doesn't have any money of its own. It doesn't generate money. The government wants to give some money to the chick down the street because she's pregnant and her boyfriend just left her for some crack ho. What does it do? It sends the IRS to take money out of my husband's paycheck, and then it gives that money to her. Can my husband refuse to give the money in his paycheck to the IRS? Not unless he wants the cops - who all have guns, by the way - to come to the house and arrest him and put him in prison for tax evasion.

So let's see. An entity with no money of its own wants to give money to someone who's poor and needy. It takes that money from someone who DOES have it. There are even guns involved.

So where did the analogy diverge from reality?

 

[Turboswede]

Isn't it? The government doesn't have any money of its own. It doesn't generate money. The government wants to give some money to the chick down the street because she's pregnant and her boyfriend just left her for some crack ho. What does it do? It sends the IRS to take money out of my husband's paycheck, and then it gives that money to her. Can my husband refuse to give the money in his paycheck to the IRS? Not unless he wants the cops - who all have guns, by the way - to come to the house and arrest him and put him in prison for tax evasion.

So let's see. An entity with no money of its own wants to give money to someone who's poor and needy. It takes that money from someone who DOES have it. There are even guns involved.

So where did the analogy diverge from reality?

Yup, its that whole Democracy thing, isn't it a bitch?!

 

[Cecilie1200]

they do? i think NOT! they, the clergy, have tax exempt numbers used at the cash register when paying and taxes are omitted from the sale.....

Uh, yeah. I'm sure you've done LOTS of shopping for churches and charities in your time.

 

[Cecilie1200]

no, they most certainly don't. Go to your local wal mart and ask the customer service desk about it.

Thanks, but I used to do the shopping for our church with my mom. She and my dad were the church caretakers.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't really know what the general welfare constitutes for certain....i think it is debateable....that's all i was saying....

And the reason i was saying the statement was silly is because no one holds a gun to your head, we live in a Democratic republic and our representatives are the ones that decide on how to spend our money and they are put in office through our vote....

so, there is no gun to anyone's head....forcing anyone by gunpoint....we live in a democratic republic, as i stated and representatives, represent us and the rule of law, rules....

care

Yeah, no gun to your head . . . except the ones on the cops who come to arrest you for tax evasion, and the ones carried by the correctional officers at the federal prison where they incarcerate you for the tax evasion.

 

[xsited1]

As a democracy (Rather than an oligarchy) if enough Americans decided to hold a gun to someone’s head and force him to give a homeless guy $20, it would be perfectly legal, but we would probably ask first.

It’s an absurd answer to an absurd hypothetical. The problem in your hypo isn’t the gun to the head, it whether or not the people around the guy with the gun agree. That’s democracy, love it or leave it.

And therein lies the point. Our Republic is based on Liberty. What you're talking about is mob rule which the Founders abhorred. Therefore, this would never be legal unless there was a fundamental change to our constitution.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Just one point. Economics and charity are two different concepts.

Wow, THAT was fairly pointless and unrelated.