We're Lowering Your Wages

[RodISHI]

This is the truth ladies and gentlemen.

Bullshit.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Bullshit.

Economics In One Lesson: By Henry Hazlitt

Economics in One Lesson

 

[Bern80]

Boo freakin hoo. And have you seen products from China lately? Who makes a shitty product that will kill your kids and pets? Fucking brainwashed houseslave conservative.

Stellar argument bobo, pick a miniscule set of products and pretend in represents the whole. You are getting really good at that. Have looked at the side effects of some drugs made in the good old USA lately bobo. That argument doesn't fly.

Unfair competition is not good. Not for America.

What is unfair about it? Think about this like a sporting competetion like a football game. Your argument is basically that you are about equal with the opposing team. Except they have a much better running back than you do. So instead of figuring out how to compenesate for their advantage your solution is to make a rule that that player can't play because he better than your back. Absurd as that sounds to everyone here, that is exactly what you are proposing. If you want the team to get better you need to find a way to compensate for their advantage. Your brilliant solution is to piss and moan and say, no fair.

 

[RodISHI]

It's not just the Big 3 that are struggling, is it?

Why don't we let Fakerosoft come in from China and compete against Microsoft? In china, they can make it cheaper because they don't have to follow copywrite/pattent laws.

And my brother, a VP, tries to say that the CEO's pay is not that big of a deal, but then he has no idea how much it add's up to when you add all the white collar salaries up. VP's, Directors, Managers in Every dept, etc.

He says in business there are only two rules, Rule 1, feed the generals first. Rule 2, never forget rule #1.

If you think the workers are greedy, you should learn more about the CEO's and the people under them. Now there's greed. And they can jockey for more pay, and boy do they. And if one guy gets a raise, everyone at his level cries until they get one too. Has nothing to do with job performance or worth. Or if some VP makes $2 million at Company B, the VP's at company A start crying for that kind of pay.

Why don't these companies cut all of their white collar pay first? Those people make the most money. They'll be able to survive the inflation that the GOP caused. And after all, they are the ones who most likely voted for the GOP.

And yes, Honda's CEO makes a million a year and Ford CEO makes $20 million. That's a huge difference.

The generals are not worth shit without a the workforce. Did you brother build his own company or simply go to work for someone else?

I see that as the major problem when you get these large companies that put all the profits into management. You always have some dumbass that believes he is so valuble a company/corporation cannot do without out them even though that company was there long before he came along. That happens for worker and management alike. One is no better than the other. Management has more responsibility.



Trickle down does not work people as you have to many people lining their own pockets.

The republican party got exactly what they deserved this last election. Zilch.

I say that as a long time republican. Ya'll made your own beds. Now enjoy.

Same goes for the democrats. You have what you all deserve. Enjoy the next four years of hell that you all have helped to create.

 

[Bern80]

Bullshit.

Perhaps you could elaborate on exactly what is bullshit about anything I said.

 

[Bern80]

I understand economics. Send jobs that pay $30hr here to countries that pay $5 a day.

No you don't seeing as how you believe wages should be based on something totally arbitrary rather than economic conditions and simple supply and demand.

 

[RodISHI]

Don't give me that. I AM THE AMERICAN WORKER DIPSHIT. Why should any company be required to pay labor some arbitrary wage the bearucrat says is a reasonable standard of living. Nothing goes up forever, bobo. What is going on with our economy is that the market is trying to reduce the cost of everything, incuding labor, back to where it should be. And morons like you who think bailing the big 3 out is a good idea because we should sacrafice the future for the present are making sure the cost of everything remains high. What goes up must come down bobo, the economy, the dow, the cost of a car, your home value, and the cost of labor can not and should not rise forever to infiniti.



We do it because we are in a global economy. That is what changed bobo, not Reagan or Bush getting elected. Technology has reached the point where it became easier to do business and just plain communicate over larger distances. It isn't any different than what happened to the country prior to this. Why do you think they build cars in Detroit? Could it maybe be because it's just a quick jump across the lake to the steel from Pensylvania. Again it's about competitive advantage. Pretend you lived in the early 1900's for a second. What if Ford decided they were going to build cars in Florida? Then you would be complaining about why are we sending jobs all the way down there. The refusal of people like you to adapt is the problem here, bobo.



Say it is much as you like. It doesn't make it any less true you liberal/democrat.



Which we lead to lessar quality products that cost more because companies don't have to compete and your policies have artifically inflated the market. You rally don't know shit about economics and business do you.



Wrong, as always. Competition is a good thing moron. It makes everyone more efficient, it ensures job for the future. Your hatred of Bush and lack of understanding of basic economics makes it so that you can't see much past the nose on your face.

When anyone believes that paying people less than they can afford to live on it is degrading to the entire society. In the past it has been up to the unions to set wage standards as the government has refused to do so.

Most people are aware that they have to make enough to pay their bills yet again the policies that have been in force have not assisted in creating an enviroment that the normal average worker can live by.

Just merely saying it is competition does not cut it when companies or even our government is allowed to outsource jobs. That is evident by the situation you have today and have had for many years now. We cannot be competitive with any country that does not treat their people with the equality standards that are supposed to be the standard in America. They do not have the same ethics.

Standards must be set due to the greed that a few or more folks have. It is that simple. Once the pack of wolves hits the hen house all the chickens are gone. That is the standard that we see today.

The problem at this point is how does America take back what the wolves have already digested. That is more than simple economics.








America cannot compete with other nations who do not play by the same rule book.

 

[sealybobo]

Have never hired illegal aliens. pisses me off whenever I see one taking a job from an American worker too. it is not because they do not deserve to feed their families either. It is because they are illegal workers and the people that hire them should be in jail.

I agree US companies cannot compete on a global scale against countries who enslave their people but the US is doing the same by letting the thugs over run the country. That is DEM and REP thugs. Nor is either party exempt there. Nor has either party protected the people for whom they are accountable too.


Actually I am a bit happy. Not to the extent that people have lost entire retirement funds but to the extent that I see it as a wakeup call. How many will actually look at it for the truth that it is? I doubt very many because so many are indoctrinated into believing they are secure and they like being slaves. Sometimes it must get pretty bad before people will look at the truth that is there to be seen.

Many bankers/insurance/credit/their lawyers/real estate/politicians/wall street guru's and such people belong in jail for fraud. It is that simple because they are all complicit in the current proclaimed market situation and most have been complicit in the fraud. The least we could hope for is stripping back from the leaders/CEO's of these companies the funds that they raided from the people.


No time for sticking up like the present as I get ready to take it to the federal courts and ask that the whole case be reinstated to include the ones that I did not have proof or knowledge of that were involved while they were raiding my home, the ones who intended on stealing real property and forcing others to give up private property by, "have gun will travel' (our local law enforcement). So what do you have to offer?

Remember, the companies that went bankrupt and renigged on all the pensions they promised, their CEO's are now CEO's or VP's at other companies, and they looted their treasuries for years before their companies actually went bankrupt. So really, only the workers got screwed.

What do I propose? Same thing we did when Bush tried to sell a port to Dubai. We all call and insist they start protecting the American middle class.

I know I'm a dreamer, but we also have to just wait and see what the new government does. They will defend the American worker. They will stop giving tax breaks to companies that go overseas. They will stop all the wastful defense spending. They will force China and other countries to either take more of our exports or get out of our country.

The other thing we can all do is stop attacking each other. Union workers are not the enemy. They did not cause the economy to crash, banks to fail, homes to foreclose or Ford & GM to fail. Do they need to give up some concessions? Sure, but in some ways I admire that they got job banks for the Big 3 when times were good. They were making a profit in the 90's, so they did not allow the companies to lay off workers. Instead they demanded they pay them until they can hire them back. Now I can see why people get jealous of that, but remember, we all wish companies treated us like more than just an operating cost. Look what companies do to us now. They let 500 of us go so the CEO can get a bonus at the end of the year.

 

[sealybobo]

Stellar argument bobo, pick a miniscule set of products and pretend in represents the whole. You are getting really good at that. Have looked at the side effects of some drugs made in the good old USA lately bobo. That argument doesn't fly.



What is unfair about it? Think about this like a sporting competetion like a football game. Your argument is basically that you are about equal with the opposing team. Except they have a much better running back than you do. So instead of figuring out how to compenesate for their advantage your solution is to make a rule that that player can't play because he better than your back. Absurd as that sounds to everyone here, that is exactly what you are proposing. If you want the team to get better you need to find a way to compensate for their advantage. Your brilliant solution is to piss and moan and say, no fair.

Who's in charge of the FDA? The GOP you say? Go figure.

If I have to explain why trade isn't fair, then you are too far behind for me to catch you up. NEXT!

 

[sealybobo]

Stellar argument bobo, pick a miniscule set of products and pretend in represents the whole. You are getting really good at that. Have looked at the side effects of some drugs made in the good old USA lately bobo. That argument doesn't fly.



What is unfair about it? Think about this like a sporting competetion like a football game. Your argument is basically that you are about equal with the opposing team. Except they have a much better running back than you do. So instead of figuring out how to compenesate for their advantage your solution is to make a rule that that player can't play because he better than your back. Absurd as that sounds to everyone here, that is exactly what you are proposing. If you want the team to get better you need to find a way to compensate for their advantage. Your brilliant solution is to piss and moan and say, no fair.

The GOP hates regulations. That includes EPA and FDA.

Tom Delay spent three years working for Redwood Chemical. This work was the source for his nickname "the Exterminator". In the 11 years DeLay ran the company, the IRS imposed tax liens on him three times for not paying payroll and income taxes.[2] The United States Environmental Protection Agency's ban on a certain pesticide that was used in extermination work led DeLay to oppose government regulation of businesses, a belief that he has carried with him throughout his political career.[3]

 

[sealybobo]

When anyone believes that paying people less than they can afford to live on it is degrading to the entire society. In the past it has been up to the unions to set wage standards as the government has refused to do so.

Most people are aware that they have to make enough to pay their bills yet again the policies that have been in force have not assisted in creating an enviroment that the normal average worker can live by.

Just merely saying it is competition does not cut it when companies or even our government is allowed to outsource jobs. That is evident by the situation you have today and have had for many years now. We cannot be competitive with any country that does not treat their people with the equality standards that are supposed to be the standard in America. They do not have the same ethics.

Standards must be set due to the greed that a few or more folks have. It is that simple. Once the pack of wolves hits the hen house all the chickens are gone. That is the standard that we see today.

The problem at this point is how does America take back what the wolves have already digested. That is more than simple economics.



America cannot compete with other nations who do not play by the same rule book.

Positive Rep for you on this one.

 

[sealybobo]

No you don't seeing as how you believe wages should be based on something totally arbitrary rather than economic conditions and simple supply and demand.

I do undertand. Allowing illegals to flood the country hurts all of us. It delutes the market and supply and demand kicks in to where companies can pay less and make more.

Arbitrary? You think our wages are arbitrary? I used to make $40K plus commission. When Daddy Bush was President, it was $30K. Companies couldn't keep good employees because they lost them to companies that were paying $40K plus. Even with Clinton's taxes, companies were thriving.

Sure the Tech Boom/Dot Com bubble burst, but that's only half the story. The part they didn't tell you about was that in 2000 when Bush got into office, they excellerated the process of companies going overseas. They actually gave their corporate buddies tax breaks for leaving. Because they themselves were leaving too. Who's they? Every corporate HQ went offshore to avoid paying US taxes. Haloburton is one of them. They're HQ'ed in Dubai. Nice.

Remember Boeing lost a big contract to Airbus?

The baby boomers are selling off America so they can retire!!!! They don't give a fuck about future generations!!!!

Bankrupting the treasury makes it easier to end social programs like social security. It almost seems as if they did it on purpose. THey got rich and got to take away from the poor/middle class.

At least take away tax breaks/loopholes that corporations are getting for going overseas. Can anyone argue against that?

 

[sealybobo]

Same goes for the democrats. You have what you all deserve. Enjoy the next four years of hell that you all have helped to create.

I wish I wrote everything down that happened from 2000-2006. I could have written a book. I would publish it as a history book. Every bill that the GOP/Tom Delay congress passed. Who voted for and against.

I think you would find out the Democrats tried to stop the GOP from pushing their radical agenda. I think you would see Democrats warned the GOP that this would happen.

When I told conservatives that I heard this shit was going on, they asked me where I heard it. When I said NPR, they said, "oh, that LIBERAL radio station, and blew me off like my news wasn't credible.

Well now what? Now they want to say Bush tried to stop this from happening? Is anyone buying that? Sure, he may have made a token speech to cover his ass, but let's be real.

Just like the immigration bill they passed in 2006. Did that fix the problem? No, but it got the millions that were calling Congress complaining to stop calling. It also cost us taxpayers billions of dollars. But did it fix the problem? Of course not.

Give every boss hiring illegals a year in jail, no if ands or buts and you will see the illegal employer problem go away tomorrow.

And stop letting manufacturers go elsewhere to manufacture and ship the shit back here to sell it.

Actually, that problem will work itself out. It actually is working itself out right now. No one here in America can afford anything anymore, so no need to import anything to America, because we aint buying shit!!!

And now they can drop their prices even more because the demand is in the crapper. Let's see what kind of profits these corporations will make when we are in a recession, that they caused.

 

[RodISHI]

Remember, the companies that went bankrupt and renigged on all the pensions they promised, their CEO's are now CEO's or VP's at other companies, and they looted their treasuries for years before their companies actually went bankrupt. So really, only the workers got screwed.

What do I propose? Same thing we did when Bush tried to sell a port to Dubai. We all call and insist they start protecting the American middle class.

I know I'm a dreamer, but we also have to just wait and see what the new government does. They will defend the American worker. They will stop giving tax breaks to companies that go overseas. They will stop all the wastful defense spending. They will force China and other countries to either take more of our exports or get out of our country.

The other thing we can all do is stop attacking each other. Union workers are not the enemy. They did not cause the economy to crash, banks to fail, homes to foreclose or Ford & GM to fail. Do they need to give up some concessions? Sure, but in some ways I admire that they got job banks for the Big 3 when times were good. They were making a profit in the 90's, so they did not allow the companies to lay off workers. Instead they demanded they pay them until they can hire them back. Now I can see why people get jealous of that, but remember, we all wish companies treated us like more than just an operating cost. Look what companies do to us now. They let 500 of us go so the CEO can get a bonus at the end of the year.

The thing is everyone has gone along with the raiding of the country. I agree people need to quit attacking one another and get to work cleaning up this mess. i never felt as union workers were the enemy but truth is any union worker better realize when they attack another man/woman trying to support their families they are only hurting themselves.

I persoanlly have no jealousy of anyone that has money. I think most would agree with me that anyone who stole from others to get what they have should not be entitled to keep it. that is the law of the land. You'd be better to insist that it be enforced.

BTW, I was raised a union brat as dad, grand-dad and a brother have all been union pipefitters. I left home at 11 years old. Married, divorced and eventually started my own business to support my children as most did not want an uneducated female working for them. The business grew to support forty people plus my own family. It had not been my original intent to have a business with forty employees. When I started my first company at the age of twenty-five. I really just wanted a job and contracting provided that. I was blacklisted after filing a letter complaining of harrassment. It was a few very good men who happened to be republicans who help me. In that I know that they are not all bad people.

Publicly traded companies should be heavily regulated. I say that because they are running on other peoples money. Much of that money is from others retirement accounts and regular bank accounts.

Banks are considered in that should be extremely heavily regulated because they do not run on their own money. I could care less if a banker makes over twenty million a year but it sure pisses me off knowing beyond a doubt that he made that money deception, extortion, counterfieting, fraud and by the theft of others peoples money. I'd say shoot them or string them up by the highest tree but we know, "Thou shalt not kill."

I still say let the auto manufacturers go bankrupt if that is the way it goes. If the employees think they can run the company without that high priced management by it at the bankruptcy fire sale.


American working class screwed themselves when they put their money/savings into stocks that could be tapped by these theives.

 

[sealybobo]

The thing is everyone has gone along with the raiding of the country. I agree people need to quit attacking one another and get to work cleaning up this mess. i never felt as union workers were the enemy but truth is any union worker better realize when they attack another man/woman trying to support their families they are only hurting themselves.

I persoanlly have no jealousy of anyone that has money. I think most would agree with me that anyone who stole from others to get what they have should not be entitled to keep it. that is the law of the land. You'd be better to insist that it be enforced.

BTW, I was raised a union brat as dad, grand-dad and a brother have all been union pipefitters. I left home at 11 years old. Married, divorced and eventually started my own business to support my children as most did not want an uneducated female working for them. The business grew to support forty people plus my own family. It had not been my original intent to have a business with forty employees. When I started my first company at the age of twenty-five. I really just wanted a job and contracting provided that. I was blacklisted after filing a letter complaining of harrassment. It was a few very good men who happened to be republicans who help me. In that I know that they are not all bad people.

Publicly traded companies should be heavily regulated. I say that because they are running on other peoples money. Much of that money is from others retirement accounts and regular bank accounts.

Banks are considered in that should be extremely heavily regulated because they do not run on their own money. I could care less if a banker makes over twenty million a year but it sure pisses me off knowing beyond a doubt that he made that money deception, extortion, counterfieting, fraud and by the theft of others peoples money. I'd say shoot them or string them up by the highest tree but we know, "Thou shalt not kill."

I still say let the auto manufacturers go bankrupt if that is the way it goes. If the employees think they can run the company without that high priced management by it at the bankruptcy fire sale.


American working class screwed themselves when they put their money/savings into stocks that could be tapped by these theives.

I agree with everything you say, until the last two paragraphs. I don't think they Big 3 should be allowed to go bankrupt, because helping them is not a lost cause. If McCain won, I'd say fine, bankrupt them and get the inevidable over with. But the pro labor party is in power now so I think we can right this wrong.

And sorry I put my money/savings into the stock market/home. What was I thinking? .

Wasn't that what we were supposed to do?

So much for privatizing social security then, huh? Because then my life savings would be in the hands of these theives.

PS. The GOP try to paint us liberals as anti small business. I think we in America should kiss the ground that you walk on. I truly believe you SHOULD get all the tax breaks, because then you will hire people with that tax break and grow your business.

I think many people lump you in with these greedy corporations. Or they think I'm talking about you when I refer to the greedy business'. Trust me, I'm not talking about you or someone in your situation.

As far as I'm concerned, you are one of us. You aren't "THE MAN".

 

[Bern80]

When anyone believes that paying people less than they can afford to live on it is degrading to the entire society. In the past it has been up to the unions to set wage standards as the government has refused to do so.

Most people are aware that they have to make enough to pay their bills yet again the policies that have been in force have not assisted in creating an enviroment that the normal average worker can live by.

How can you not see the problems it would cause for the economy to pay people what someone decides is enough to live on vs. the market value of the job? it is blatanlty obvious none of you have thought about what would happen if we actually did something that asanine.

Such a proposal really enters into the realm of discussion about what the fundamental purpose of a business is. It also has some inherently flawed asumptions. Apparently people like you and bobo believe it is a business purpose to provide for your standard of living. it isn't. That is YOUR purpose in getting a job. A businesses purpose is to make money. To that end they hire people to accomplish that and they owe nothing more than what is stated in the contract YOU agreed to when you took the job.

Just merely saying it is competition does not cut it when companies or even our government is allowed to outsource jobs. That is evident by the situation you have today and have had for many years now. We cannot be competitive with any country that does not treat their people with the equality standards that are supposed to be the standard in America. They do not have the same ethics.

Standards must be set due to the greed that a few or more folks have. It is that simple. Once the pack of wolves hits the hen house all the chickens are gone. That is the standard that we see today.

The problem at this point is how does America take back what the wolves have already digested. That is more than simple economics.

This line of thinking rests on one major presumption. That all or the majority of business owners are back stabbing, greedy, do anything for a buck people. If that were the case, if we took it as a given that the owners of companies were gonna shaft and treat their employees like dirt you might have the makings of an argument. But you are like most who think what is reported on network television about a select few CEOs is what constitutes reality. I worked for a company that had to make the decision whether to move part of its operation to Mexico and I work for a company now that, like most, is trying to make similarily difficult decisions. These decisions aren't being made to line CEOs pockets for the most part. They are being made so that the entire business can continue to operate and keep the jobs that do stay in the U.S.

America cannot compete with other nations who do not play by the same rule book.

Why does America have the right to force it's economic rules on other countries?

 

[sealybobo]

No you don't seeing as how you believe wages should be based on something totally arbitrary rather than economic conditions and simple supply and demand.

What about the people who work for Toyota and Honda now for $15 hr.

When the Big 3 are gone and all those people hit the streets looking for a job, how much do you think the Toyota line worker will be worth?

$8 hr.? Come on! Why not? There will be tons of people that will take that job for $8, so why would you pay the current workers an arbitrary number like $15 when you can easily get someone to do it for $8?

And when half of the people that worked for the Big 3 go get retrained to be nurses, engineers, IT pro's, lawyers, salespeople, etc. When they flood the economy looking to do what we do, won't that lower our worth? People will get desperate. They'll do it for half of what I make.

 

[cunclusion]

The main problem is alot of countries either through their currency(China) or through an assortment of protectionist policies. We let everyone bring stuff here with little or no tax but we can sale most things anywhere else because the tax raises the cost of the good. Shogun is right about this little issue there is no free market except coming into the US market.

 

[Bern80]

I do undertand. Allowing illegals to flood the country hurts all of us. It delutes the market and supply and demand kicks in to where companies can pay less and make more.

No argument from me on that one.

Arbitrary? You think our wages are arbitrary? I used to make $40K plus commission. When Daddy Bush was President, it was $30K. Companies couldn't keep good employees because they lost them to companies that were paying $40K plus. Even with Clinton's taxes, companies were thriving.

I'm not talking about what is arbitrary now. You arguing that pay shoudl be based on something other than the value of labor. What you have been suggesting is that all companies should pay enough for people to live. If you can't see the can of worms that opens than there is no helping you. THAT is what I am calling arbitrary. Someone government agency mandating to companies some figure they come up with they deem enough for someone to live on.

How specifically did Bush cut your pay by 10k?

At least take away tax breaks/loopholes that corporations are getting for going overseas. Can anyone argue against that?

I would opt for a much simpler tax code.

 

[sealybobo]

How can you not see the problems it would cause for the economy to pay people what someone decides is enough to live on vs. the market value of the job? it is blatanlty obvious none of you have thought about what would happen if we actually did something that asanine.

Such a proposal really enters into the realm of discussion about what the fundamental purpose of a business is. It also has some inherently flawed asumptions. Apparently people like you and bobo believe it is a business purpose to provide for your standard of living. it isn't. That is YOUR purpose in getting a job. A businesses purpose is to make money. To that end they hire people to accomplish that and they owe nothing more than what is stated in the contract YOU agreed to when you took the job.

This line of thinking rests on one major presumption. That all or the majority of business owners are back stabbing, greedy, do anything for a buck people. If that were the case, if we took it as a given that the owners of companies were gonna shaft and treat their employees like dirt you might have the makings of an argument. But you are like most who think what is reported on network television about a select few CEOs is what constitutes reality. I worked for a company that had to make the decision whether to move part of its operation to Mexico and I work for a company now that, like most, is trying to make similarily difficult decisions. These decisions aren't being made to line CEOs pockets for the most part. They are being made so that the entire business can continue to operate and keep the jobs that do stay in the U.S.

Why does America have the right to force it's economic rules on other countries?

Ah, now I at least see what you are trying to say. No, a company shouldn't continue to pay $100K for good IT people when the market is flooded with them. That we get.

But, our government should tariff, or at least not give tax breaks to companies that go overseas.

If you can't stay in America and hire Americans, then maybe you should go out of business. Or maybe there's an argument for a little protectionism.

Where does it say the market value of a CEO is $20 million. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

And our wages were set in the 90's, when the economy was good.

Just like you don't tax a rich person during a recession, you should also not cut our wages when inflation goes up. Do you get that?

And actually, if you read up on our founding fathers, or if you talked to CEO's of big corporations, the most important thing a company does is employ people. Without people working and making a decent wage, who's gonna buy?

And this is what you are seeing in this current economy. When people lose their 401k's, jobs, healthcare, home values,

Who's buying anything right now?

And your last comment. You said it before, and you know it is true. You didn't say all corporations are backstabbers, but you did admit that their sole perpose/goal is profits. They don't give a shit about American workers. In their mind, $4 a day Mexican worker will appreciate what they pay him, just like American workers appriciate $15hr. No hard feelings, but as far as Corporations go, fuck America. Until we no longer can buy what they are selling. Then they went too far.