CDZ Welfare vs Charity

[hauke]

2 choices :

1. every human being got the right to enough land so he can produce by being a farmer enough food to sustain himself and his children. and earn enough money to pay for basic medical care

a right to land. thats so 17 century

2. every person got the right to enough money so they can buy themselfs a simple dwelling, enough food to survive and basic medical care.

thats 21 century
##

or you don t have the right to live you goto fight for it, kill me try to kill me i gota gun you got a gun lets fight

thats america

 

[Hiryuu]

2 choices :

1. every human being got the right to enough land so he can produce by being a farmer enough food to sustain himself and his children. and earn enough money to pay for basic medical care

a right to land. thats so 17 century

2. every person got the right to enough money so they can buy themselfs a simple dwelling, enough food to survive and basic medical care.

thats 21 century
##

or you don t have the right to live you goto fight for it, kill me try to kill me i gota gun you got a gun lets fight

thats america

Having the right to something and being able to afford it are two things entirely different. Land, dwellings, food, medical care and even money are available to everyone. I think the point people miss is that nothing is free, and having a right to something doesn't mean you have it.

Look at all the people who have a right to vote, who don't vote.
Look at all the people who have a right to bear arms, but are unarmed.

Having a right to something isn't what it takes to get it, and should be restricted to the idea that you can have it if you earn it. Either that or someone who has it gives it to you. I know it is a crazy idea, but I still think anyone can be all they want to be and have all they can manage if they accept the responsibility of getting it themselves instead of wait for someone to give it to them.

 

[Andylusion]

Of course someone would say: "Why should I pay for courts, I never use them?"

Once again, the title of the thread is what? "Courts vs. Charity"? No..... It's "Welfare vs Charity". Are courts a welfare program?

Even so, we could easily cut taxes by more than half, and fund all the courts in the country.

 

[Andylusion]

That doesn't mean it is incorrect.

However true this may be, it does not change the fact that you are forced to provide goods and services to others without compensation.

Why do you not take issue with state-enforced involuntary servitude based on someone's version of reality.

The compensation is that it is there for you and has always been there for you. Its part of living in a civilised society. No man is an island.

I'd rather have it not there for me. Since I thought we were supposed to be a society of the people, not a people for the good of society...

First, I never seem to qualify for all these "civilize society" programs.

Second, it takes a ton of money out of my paycheck.

So apparently being part of 'civilized society', is you take my money at the point of a gun, and then demand I be happy about it, while I get nothing from it. Funny how something that you would expect from Genghis Kan, is considered "civilized society" by the left.

Red:
It's not an "either or" thing.

• One is a member of society because that is more to one's advantage than is being "an island."
• One contributes to society because as the society's status improves, so too does one's own.

Society as a whole conferring benefits to its members and the members of the society contributing to the general welfare of the society forms a symbiotic relationship.

You, I and anyone else are free to disconnect ourselves from society, we are all free to remove ourselves from the collaborative bargain between ourselves and the society at large. One can inhabit an area of wilderness land and live entirely off of what one can generate from that land and contribute nothing to the society at large. Indeed, one need not even do so in the U.S. As by doing so one will have no income and no permanent address, one will not pay SSI/Medicare, one will not pay income taxes, one will also receive no specific benefits from the society at large. One will be about as free as is humanly possible.


Blue:
If one earns a lot of money, the actual sum taken from one's wages will be what most other folks consider to be a "ton of money." If one does not earn a lot of money, the actual sum taken from one's wages is not at all "a ton of money." The same is so with regard to tax rates for they are graduated so as to take more from folks who earn more and take less from folks who earn less.


Green:
You definitely do not "get nothing" in return for your taxes:

• You ride on roads built, maintained, and paid for by state and local road funds replenished by tax dollars.
  
• Children who attend public schools benefit from 47% of tax dollars collected.
  
• Tax dollars also pay for public safety for your neighborhood.
  
• You get advance notice about dangerous weather that's headed your way.
• You get millions of people working to make sure other nation states don't forcibly invade and conquer the place in which you live.
• You get the ability to send a letter or parcel to any mailing address in the country.
• You get home ownership that costs less than comparable home rental (non-ownership) via the home mortgage interest deduction.
• You get milk that costs less than tea, along with a host of other low priced food items.
• You get felons incarcerated such that they remain off the streets.
• You get safe to eat foods and safe to use medicines.
• You get a business environment that allows you to produce nearly anything you want (good or service) to and in turn sell it for profit.
• You get travel to scores of places around the world and be warmly welcomed merely on the basis of being an American.
• You get a cadre of folks looking out for your and your loved ones' well being with regard to the products and services you buy.
• You get free or heavily subsidized access to information about pretty much anything you could want to learn about.
• You get nationwide train service.
• You get efficient and affordable delivery of electricity and water, which, in addition to being things you find essential to your existence, are just two of the protections you receive against the excesses of capitalism.
• You get open spaces to enjoy and that are protected from commercial development.
• You get formal protection for your original thoughts and innovations.
• You get the benefits of space and oceanographic discovery and exploration.
• You get the ability to criticize your government and leaders without fear of reprisal.
• You get "tons" of data that you get to manipulate whatever way you want to make your sophistic points.
• You get all sorts of support -- qualitative and monetary -- in the creation of your own business venture.
• You get the offerings and operation of all these organizations:
  • Amtrak
  • Commodity Credit Corporation
  • Conrail
  • Corporation for Public Broadcasting
  • CSS Industries
  • Digiview Entertainment
  • Export-Import Bank of the United States
  • Farm Credit System Insurance Corporation
  • Federal Crop Insurance Corporation
  • Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
  • Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board
  • Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation
  • Holdings of American International Group
  • Legal Services Corporation
  • Mercury Filmworks
  • Murdoch Family Trust
  • NeighborWorks America
  • North Dakota Mill and Elevator
  • Overseas Private Investment Corporation
  • Partnership for a Drug-Free America
  • Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
  • Picatinny Arsenal Public development authority
  • Reconstruction Finance Corporation
  • Resolution Trust Corporation
  • Rural Edge
  • Securities Investor Protection Corporation
  • State Justice Institute
  • Tennessee Valley Authority United States Postal Service
• You get to say all the silly sh*t you say.

The list goes on and on. You need only contact a government agency/department to learn more about any of them. You may not feel like you want to benefit from some or all of those things. That you opt not to avail yourself of any of those things is your fault/choosing, but they are nonetheless there for you the instant you want to take advantage of them. So if you want to maximize the return you get for your tax dollars, I suggest start taking advantage of more of the things your taxes pay for rather than complaining that you don't get anything from having paid taxes.

Red:
When I have to pay for everyone else, and I get nothing in return for all my hard work... don't tell it's this mutual thing. I have shell out money for you, but you get to do nothing for me, that's just a "democracy" version of slavery.

Blue:
So half the population pays zero tax, and the other half pays 90% of all tax.... spare me your rationalization on how that is fair.

Green:

• Children who attend public schools benefit from 47% of tax dollars collected. (We have kids coming out that can't use a calculator)

• You get the ability to send a letter or parcel to any mailing address in the country. (Which I haven't used in over a decade, and other options are cheaper)

• You get home ownership that costs less than comparable home rental (non-ownership) via the home mortgage interest deduction. (essentially saying I get to pay the banks tons, to pay the government a few pennies less)

• You get milk that costs less than tea, along with a host of other low priced food items. (The milk subsidy pays farmers when milk prices go too low. It does nothing to keep prices low).

• You get safe to eat foods and safe to use medicines. (Lies)

• You get a cadre of folks looking out for your and your loved ones' well being with regard to the products and services you buy. (How about YOU look out for the well being of your loved ones? How selfish is that. I want government to look out for my family so I don't have to?)

• You get free or heavily subsidized access to information about pretty much anything you could want to learn about. (Not true)

• You get nationwide train service. (Which I have never used in my life)

• You get efficient and affordable delivery of electricity and water, which, in addition to being things you find essential to your existence, are just two of the protections you receive against the excesses of capitalism. (Actually both only exist, and are provided by Capitalism)

• You get open spaces to enjoy and that are protected from commercial development. (Confiscating private land from people, so I can walk around and do noting with the land.... it's wrong, and immoral)

• You get formal protection for your original thoughts and innovations. (Which benefits the major corporations, not private inventors)

• You get the benefits of space and oceanographic discovery and exploration.

• You get the ability to criticize your government and leaders without fear of reprisal. (Which has what to do with taxes? We had that ability before the income tax ever existed)

• You get "tons" of data that you get to manipulate whatever way you want to make your sophistic points. (I'll take lower taxes for less data any day)

• You get all sorts of support -- qualitative and monetary -- in the creation of your own business venture. (I've worked with a number of small business. Not one has gotten any help from government)

• You get the offerings and operation of all these organizations:
  • Amtrak (Never Used)
    
  • Commodity Credit Corporation (Never Used)
    
  • Conrail (Never Used)
    
  • Corporation for Public Broadcasting (Never Used)
    
  • CSS Industries (Never Used)
    
  • Digiview Entertainment (Never Used)
    
  • Export-Import Bank of the United States (Never Used)
  • Farm Credit System Insurance Corporation (Never Used)
  • Federal Crop Insurance Corporation (Never Used)
    
  • Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (Terrible)
    
  • Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board (Never Used)
    
  • Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation (Never Used)
    
  • Holdings of American International Group (Mistake)
  • Legal Services Corporation (Never Used)
  • Mercury Filmworks (are you saying that our government is funding a private company in Canada? This is good how?)
    
  • Murdoch Family Trust (Never Used)
  • NeighborWorks America (Never Used)
  • North Dakota Mill and Elevator (Never Used)
  • Overseas Private Investment Corporation (Never Used)
  • Partnership for a Drug-Free America (Never Used)
  • Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (Never Used)
  • Picatinny Arsenal Public development authority
  • Reconstruction Finance Corporation (Never Used)
  • Resolution Trust Corporation (Never Used)
  • Rural Edge (Never Used)
  • Securities Investor Protection Corporation (Never Used)
  • State Justice Institute (Never Used)
  • Tennessee Valley Authority United States Postal Service (Never Used)

• You get to say all the silly sh*t you say.

Now this is funny.
What is the name of this thread? What is the title?
"Welfare vs Charity"

Right? That is the name of this thread. So I mention how I get taxed crap out of me, and then get nothing for it, and how do you respond? By talking about the military and police, and roads?

You need to go back and learn a new word: "Context".

But let's talk about that anyway. 2016 Federal Budget revenue is $3.6 Trillion. Department of Defense is $616 Billion. Department of Transportation is $15 Billion. Department of Justice is $15 Billion. Government operations, $10 Billion.

Starting to see a problem? $656 Billion will cover all your roads, law enforcement, national defense, and all that crap. Where's the other $3 Trillion in taxes going? To all your crap welfare programs.

We could cut taxes by 80%, and still have MORE than enough money to cover all of those things you mention, that I actually do benefit from. We could even fund that worthless money losing US Postal Service, and have plenty of cash left over to pay down debts. Actually have a true fiscal surplus.

By the way, same thing at the State level. Only 1/3rd of the State level budget goes to roads, bridges, police and other service. 2/3rds goes to health care, and welfare.

Similarly at the City level, 1/3rd of the city budget goes towards welfare.

We could cut taxes at all levels of government, by a massive amount, and still have money left over after funding all the things that really benefit all people.

That's the reality of it.

You know, you are most probably the most loud, strong and wrong person I have nearly met in my life. I am not even going to take the time to respond to your remarks. I know you won't bother to go figure out whether your impressions are mistaken, and I know that because you actually replied that that you don't use some of the things your taxes pay for is part of your basis for thinking, and feeling justified about it no less, that you shouldn't have to pay taxes to help contribute to those services being available. You need to go live on an island and just stay there.

Pretty easy to say "You are wrong and I'm not going to respond to your remarks".

I don't really care about your opinion, when you can't prove it. You know, you are most probably the most loud, strong and wrong person I have nearly met in my life. I am not even going to take the time to respond to your remarks.

Hey if that's a good enough argument for you.... then it two can play that game, eh? See you around.

 

[Andylusion]

I'd rather have it not there for me. Since I thought we were supposed to be a society of the people, not a people for the good of society...

First, I never seem to qualify for all these "civilize society" programs.

Second, it takes a ton of money out of my paycheck.

So apparently being part of 'civilized society', is you take my money at the point of a gun, and then demand I be happy about it, while I get nothing from it. Funny how something that you would expect from Genghis Kan, is considered "civilized society" by the left.

Vote against it then.Everybody is aggrieved about something their taxes pay for and you get a vote to change that.
Your argument is like saying "I am a pacifist so why should I pay for bombs ?"
Or
"I havent got kids so why should I pay for schools ?"

Its not a a real argument.

Every time we vote for people who cut those things, you people on the left freak out.

But my point is, YOUR argument is not real. You claim over and over, that all these programs are for middle and lower class working people. That's what the left-wing has said for as long as I can remember.

I can't think of a single program, that has ever helped me. Take all that money, and give it to police, and maybe we can reduce the crime level, so I don't have to install security cameras like my neighbor has.

At what point do any of your crap programs actually help the people you claim it helps?

Driving up my taxes, so you can give non-working people free stuff? Your argument is false. The justification you have for these "civilized society" programs, is a lie.

Well I dont claim that any single programme is there for any class of society so dont project that on to me.

Secondly I would be interested to understand why you think that welfare doesnt help you ? That seems a narrow view to take.

It doesn't matter if you think those programs are for a specific class of society or not..... they are. Flat out, they are. Period.

Why I don't think those programs help me? Because they don't? I don't even know how to answer the question. When I look back over the last 20+ years of working.... not one time has even one single program, ever been helpful to me. Ever.

I'm confused by your question. Are you suggesting that somehow, in some magical way that apparently I'm just not as smart as you to realize, these programs do benefit me? I just am incapable of knowing it?

This is like Obama who said on Camera that people who oppose Obama Care, just don't realize how they are being helped. Essentially all the voters are too dumb to know they are better off?

If you are trying to insult me, then I understand the question. But otherwise, what do you mean how do I know I haven't been helped by these programs? I haven't been helped. That's how I know those programs don't help me.... because they don't. Never once have they been helpful.

Now I have met people who have benefited by those programs. And many of them were kind enough to rub it in my face, that they were sitting at home collecting benefits, while I worked to pay the taxes that fund those benefit. Again, great for blood sucking ticks on society... not helpful to me.

They apply to everybody. Ensuring that people can get the basics is a benefit to all of us. Would you rather that people starved ?
Here is a thought. No man is going to see his kids starve. Even if that means robbing and killing to get it. Heading off that must be a benefit to you ?

Tommy.... people like you played that game before. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Back in the 1990s... we had roughly 28 Million people on food stamps. The Republicans in Congress pushed through welfare reform, which cut off food stamps to millions of people. The food stamp enrollment dropped from 27 Million to roughly 16 Million. Almost in half.

Did people roll over and die? Where they starving on the streets?

No, instead people simply.... got a job. Shockingly being hungry is a great motivator for people to work. And they did.

People stopped standing around waiting for others to fix their lives, and instead got off their butts, and started working.

There was no massive starvation. No mass graves filled with the dead of those who were kicked off food stamps. It didn't happen. Every time you start talking about how cutting food stamps and welfare would result in people dying.... you are just wrong. Flat out, you are wrong.

 

[Andylusion]

2 choices :

1. every human being got the right to enough land so he can produce by being a farmer enough food to sustain himself and his children. and earn enough money to pay for basic medical care

a right to land. thats so 17 century

2. every person got the right to enough money so they can buy themselfs a simple dwelling, enough food to survive and basic medical care.

thats 21 century
##

or you don t have the right to live you goto fight for it, kill me try to kill me i gota gun you got a gun lets fight

thats america

Ridiculous. I'd tell you go live in a country built on those principals, but the Soviet Union no longer exists.

So you'll have to move to a country that is moving toward that system, and I only know of one, and that's Venezuela.

Every country that adopted the socialist belief system is now moving away from it. It doesn't work. Your system, does not work. You can say how much it should, how much it ought to, and how much you want it to.... but the fact is, it doesn't.

The Soviets were eating each other, under your system of "to each according to their need". Apparently they were having their needs met so much, they needed a fork and knife when company came over for dinner. Jeffery Dahmer would be proud.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Vote against it then.Everybody is aggrieved about something their taxes pay for and you get a vote to change that.
Your argument is like saying "I am a pacifist so why should I pay for bombs ?"
Or
"I havent got kids so why should I pay for schools ?"

Its not a a real argument.

Every time we vote for people who cut those things, you people on the left freak out.

But my point is, YOUR argument is not real. You claim over and over, that all these programs are for middle and lower class working people. That's what the left-wing has said for as long as I can remember.

I can't think of a single program, that has ever helped me. Take all that money, and give it to police, and maybe we can reduce the crime level, so I don't have to install security cameras like my neighbor has.

At what point do any of your crap programs actually help the people you claim it helps?

Driving up my taxes, so you can give non-working people free stuff? Your argument is false. The justification you have for these "civilized society" programs, is a lie.

Well I dont claim that any single programme is there for any class of society so dont project that on to me.

Secondly I would be interested to understand why you think that welfare doesnt help you ? That seems a narrow view to take.

It doesn't matter if you think those programs are for a specific class of society or not..... they are. Flat out, they are. Period.

Why I don't think those programs help me? Because they don't? I don't even know how to answer the question. When I look back over the last 20+ years of working.... not one time has even one single program, ever been helpful to me. Ever.

I'm confused by your question. Are you suggesting that somehow, in some magical way that apparently I'm just not as smart as you to realize, these programs do benefit me? I just am incapable of knowing it?

This is like Obama who said on Camera that people who oppose Obama Care, just don't realize how they are being helped. Essentially all the voters are too dumb to know they are better off?

If you are trying to insult me, then I understand the question. But otherwise, what do you mean how do I know I haven't been helped by these programs? I haven't been helped. That's how I know those programs don't help me.... because they don't. Never once have they been helpful.

Now I have met people who have benefited by those programs. And many of them were kind enough to rub it in my face, that they were sitting at home collecting benefits, while I worked to pay the taxes that fund those benefit. Again, great for blood sucking ticks on society... not helpful to me.

They apply to everybody. Ensuring that people can get the basics is a benefit to all of us. Would you rather that people starved ?
Here is a thought. No man is going to see his kids starve. Even if that means robbing and killing to get it. Heading off that must be a benefit to you ?

Tommy.... people like you played that game before. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Back in the 1990s... we had roughly 28 Million people on food stamps. The Republicans in Congress pushed through welfare reform, which cut off food stamps to millions of people. The food stamp enrollment dropped from 27 Million to roughly 16 Million. Almost in half.

Did people roll over and die? Where they starving on the streets?

No, instead people simply.... got a job. Shockingly being hungry is a great motivator for people to work. And they did.

People stopped standing around waiting for others to fix their lives, and instead got off their butts, and started working.

There was no massive starvation. No mass graves filled with the dead of those who were kicked off food stamps. It didn't happen. Every time you start talking about how cutting food stamps and welfare would result in people dying.... you are just wrong. Flat out, you are wrong.

Your argument works as a critique of the scale of it but not its necessity.

I would argue that your approach to welfare would lead to mass civil unrest, increased crime and the breakdown of society.

So in that light you benefit enormously from welfare.

 

[Andylusion]

Every time we vote for people who cut those things, you people on the left freak out.

But my point is, YOUR argument is not real. You claim over and over, that all these programs are for middle and lower class working people. That's what the left-wing has said for as long as I can remember.

I can't think of a single program, that has ever helped me. Take all that money, and give it to police, and maybe we can reduce the crime level, so I don't have to install security cameras like my neighbor has.

At what point do any of your crap programs actually help the people you claim it helps?

Driving up my taxes, so you can give non-working people free stuff? Your argument is false. The justification you have for these "civilized society" programs, is a lie.

Well I dont claim that any single programme is there for any class of society so dont project that on to me.

Secondly I would be interested to understand why you think that welfare doesnt help you ? That seems a narrow view to take.

It doesn't matter if you think those programs are for a specific class of society or not..... they are. Flat out, they are. Period.

Why I don't think those programs help me? Because they don't? I don't even know how to answer the question. When I look back over the last 20+ years of working.... not one time has even one single program, ever been helpful to me. Ever.

I'm confused by your question. Are you suggesting that somehow, in some magical way that apparently I'm just not as smart as you to realize, these programs do benefit me? I just am incapable of knowing it?

This is like Obama who said on Camera that people who oppose Obama Care, just don't realize how they are being helped. Essentially all the voters are too dumb to know they are better off?

If you are trying to insult me, then I understand the question. But otherwise, what do you mean how do I know I haven't been helped by these programs? I haven't been helped. That's how I know those programs don't help me.... because they don't. Never once have they been helpful.

Now I have met people who have benefited by those programs. And many of them were kind enough to rub it in my face, that they were sitting at home collecting benefits, while I worked to pay the taxes that fund those benefit. Again, great for blood sucking ticks on society... not helpful to me.

They apply to everybody. Ensuring that people can get the basics is a benefit to all of us. Would you rather that people starved ?
Here is a thought. No man is going to see his kids starve. Even if that means robbing and killing to get it. Heading off that must be a benefit to you ?

Tommy.... people like you played that game before. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Back in the 1990s... we had roughly 28 Million people on food stamps. The Republicans in Congress pushed through welfare reform, which cut off food stamps to millions of people. The food stamp enrollment dropped from 27 Million to roughly 16 Million. Almost in half.

Did people roll over and die? Where they starving on the streets?

No, instead people simply.... got a job. Shockingly being hungry is a great motivator for people to work. And they did.

People stopped standing around waiting for others to fix their lives, and instead got off their butts, and started working.

There was no massive starvation. No mass graves filled with the dead of those who were kicked off food stamps. It didn't happen. Every time you start talking about how cutting food stamps and welfare would result in people dying.... you are just wrong. Flat out, you are wrong.

Your argument works as a critique of the scale of it but not its necessity.

I would argue that your approach to welfare would lead to mass civil unrest, increased crime and the breakdown of society.

So in that light you benefit enormously from welfare.

Do you realize the kind of argument you are making? If I don't give people what they want, they'll get upset and cause problems?

Have you never had kids? Did you ever think "oh I better give timmy everything he wants, or he'll get mad", so you just let your kids stay up all night, eat cake and ice cream all day long?

Do you not hear what you are saying? Your idea of "civilized society" is working people being held hostage by an ultimatum, by the non-working. That's effectively what you said. If working people like me, don't pay trillions in taxes, to fund welfare, then those people will get angry and burn the country down. That's civilized society in your book?

Dude, that's appeasement. I figured someone from the UK, would be smarter than this. If you don't give Hitler everything he wants, then there will be war, right?

Why not use that same logic for criminals. Just give criminals everything they want, or they might get mad and hurt people. That's civilized society?

If that's your version of civilized society, where the threat of violence is grounds for confiscating my rightfully earned money, and giving it to the people making that threat..... then shouldn't it work both ways?

So here's my ultimatum: I get to keep my own property, or when you riot, I'm going to load up my guns, and blow a hole in ever person who threatens my property. I'm going to elect anyone who promises to arm the police with AR-15s, and orders to shoot to kill. No civil unrest. No mass crime. You want to start breaking windows, and stealing stuff, you get to go meet Jesus.

See, I gotta tell you, I was raised differently. My father had some rules in his household. When he gave you something that you didn't earn, and you didn't deserve, he expected you to show gratitude. And if I didn't show that gratitude for the sacrifices he made, that benefited me, then he would deny me what little I had. No dinner tonight. No leaving my room. No video games, no friends over, nothing.

He apparently is now is now a dying breed of good men, who stood up for what was right.

So when you say "if you don't give them free stuff, they'll get angry and cause problems", that right there, is the absolute best, number one top of the list reason, to end all welfare and food stamps completely. If these people are not grateful for the sacrifice we make that benefits them, then absolutely cut them off and let them die. If they want to riot, just let them know I have 150 rounds of 9mm, and I do target practice.