CDZ Welfare vs Charity

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Tommy Tainant, Jul 13, 2016.

  1. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    I dont recognise the question as being valid. Its a bit melodramatic.
     
  2. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    Well I dont claim that any single programme is there for any class of society so dont project that on to me.

    Secondly I would be interested to understand why you think that welfare doesnt help you ? That seems a narrow view to take.
     
  3. 320 Years of History
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    320 Years of History Gold Member

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    Red:
    It's not an "either or" thing.
    • One is a member of society because that is more to one's advantage than is being "an island."
    • One contributes to society because as the society's status improves, so too does one's own.
    Society as a whole conferring benefits to its members and the members of the society contributing to the general welfare of the society forms a symbiotic relationship.

    You, I and anyone else are free to disconnect ourselves from society, we are all free to remove ourselves from the collaborative bargain between ourselves and the society at large. One can inhabit an area of wilderness land and live entirely off of what one can generate from that land and contribute nothing to the society at large. Indeed, one need not even do so in the U.S. As by doing so one will have no income and no permanent address, one will not pay SSI/Medicare, one will not pay income taxes, one will also receive no specific benefits from the society at large. One will be about as free as is humanly possible.


    Blue:
    If one earns a lot of money, the actual sum taken from one's wages will be what most other folks consider to be a "ton of money." If one does not earn a lot of money, the actual sum taken from one's wages is not at all "a ton of money." The same is so with regard to tax rates for they are graduated so as to take more from folks who earn more and take less from folks who earn less.


    Green:
    You definitely do not "get nothing" in return for your taxes:
    • You ride on roads built, maintained, and paid for by state and local road funds replenished by tax dollars.
    • Children who attend public schools benefit from 47% of tax dollars collected.
    • Tax dollars also pay for public safety for your neighborhood.
    • You get advance notice about dangerous weather that's headed your way.
    • You get millions of people working to make sure other nation states don't forcibly invade and conquer the place in which you live.
    • You get the ability to send a letter or parcel to any mailing address in the country.
    • You get home ownership that costs less than comparable home rental (non-ownership) via the home mortgage interest deduction.
    • You get milk that costs less than tea, along with a host of other low priced food items.
    • You get felons incarcerated such that they remain off the streets.
    • You get safe to eat foods and safe to use medicines.
    • You get a business environment that allows you to produce nearly anything you want (good or service) to and in turn sell it for profit.
    • You get travel to scores of places around the world and be warmly welcomed merely on the basis of being an American.
    • You get a cadre of folks looking out for your and your loved ones' well being with regard to the products and services you buy.
    • You get free or heavily subsidized access to information about pretty much anything you could want to learn about.
    • You get nationwide train service.
    • You get efficient and affordable delivery of electricity and water, which, in addition to being things you find essential to your existence, are just two of the protections you receive against the excesses of capitalism.
    • You get open spaces to enjoy and that are protected from commercial development.
    • You get formal protection for your original thoughts and innovations.
    • You get the benefits of space and oceanographic discovery and exploration.
    • You get the ability to criticize your government and leaders without fear of reprisal.
    • You get "tons" of data that you get to manipulate whatever way you want to make your sophistic points.
    • You get all sorts of support -- qualitative and monetary -- in the creation of your own business venture.
    • You get the offerings and operation of all these organizations:
      • Amtrak
      • Commodity Credit Corporation
      • Conrail
      • Corporation for Public Broadcasting
      • CSS Industries
      • Digiview Entertainment
      • Export-Import Bank of the United States
      • Farm Credit System Insurance Corporation
      • Federal Crop Insurance Corporation
      • Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
      • Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board
      • Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation
      • Holdings of American International Group
      • Legal Services Corporation
      • Mercury Filmworks
      • Murdoch Family Trust
      • NeighborWorks America
      • North Dakota Mill and Elevator
      • Overseas Private Investment Corporation
      • Partnership for a Drug-Free America
      • Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
      • Picatinny Arsenal Public development authority
      • Reconstruction Finance Corporation
      • Resolution Trust Corporation
      • Rural Edge
      • Securities Investor Protection Corporation
      • State Justice Institute
      • Tennessee Valley Authority United States Postal Service
    • You get to say all the silly sh*t you say.
    The list goes on and on. You need only contact a government agency/department to learn more about any of them. You may not feel like you want to benefit from some or all of those things. That you opt not to avail yourself of any of those things is your fault/choosing, but they are nonetheless there for you the instant you want to take advantage of them. So if you want to maximize the return you get for your tax dollars, I suggest start taking advantage of more of the things your taxes pay for rather than complaining that you don't get anything from having paid taxes.
     
  4. M14 Shooter
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    M14 Shooter The Light of Truth

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    Your avoidance of the issue is noted.
     
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  5. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    Red:
    When I have to pay for everyone else, and I get nothing in return for all my hard work... don't tell it's this mutual thing. I have shell out money for you, but you get to do nothing for me, that's just a "democracy" version of slavery.

    Blue:
    So half the population pays zero tax, and the other half pays 90% of all tax.... spare me your rationalization on how that is fair.

    Green:
    • Children who attend public schools benefit from 47% of tax dollars collected. (We have kids coming out that can't use a calculator)

    • You get the ability to send a letter or parcel to any mailing address in the country. (Which I haven't used in over a decade, and other options are cheaper)
    • You get home ownership that costs less than comparable home rental (non-ownership) via the home mortgage interest deduction. (essentially saying I get to pay the banks tons, to pay the government a few pennies less)
    • You get milk that costs less than tea, along with a host of other low priced food items. (The milk subsidy pays farmers when milk prices go too low. It does nothing to keep prices low).
    • You get safe to eat foods and safe to use medicines. (Lies)
    • You get a cadre of folks looking out for your and your loved ones' well being with regard to the products and services you buy. (How about YOU look out for the well being of your loved ones? How selfish is that. I want government to look out for my family so I don't have to?)
    • You get free or heavily subsidized access to information about pretty much anything you could want to learn about. (Not true)
    • You get nationwide train service. (Which I have never used in my life)
    • You get efficient and affordable delivery of electricity and water, which, in addition to being things you find essential to your existence, are just two of the protections you receive against the excesses of capitalism. (Actually both only exist, and are provided by Capitalism)
    • You get open spaces to enjoy and that are protected from commercial development. (Confiscating private land from people, so I can walk around and do noting with the land.... it's wrong, and immoral)
    • You get formal protection for your original thoughts and innovations. (Which benefits the major corporations, not private inventors)
    • You get the benefits of space and oceanographic discovery and exploration.
    • You get the ability to criticize your government and leaders without fear of reprisal. (Which has what to do with taxes? We had that ability before the income tax ever existed)
    • You get "tons" of data that you get to manipulate whatever way you want to make your sophistic points. (I'll take lower taxes for less data any day)
    • You get all sorts of support -- qualitative and monetary -- in the creation of your own business venture. (I've worked with a number of small business. Not one has gotten any help from government)
    • You get the offerings and operation of all these organizations:
      • Amtrak (Never Used)
      • Commodity Credit Corporation (Never Used)
      • Conrail (Never Used)
      • Corporation for Public Broadcasting (Never Used)
      • CSS Industries (Never Used)
      • Digiview Entertainment (Never Used)
      • Export-Import Bank of the United States (Never Used)
      • Farm Credit System Insurance Corporation (Never Used)
      • Federal Crop Insurance Corporation (Never Used)
      • Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (Terrible)
      • Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board (Never Used)
      • Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation (Never Used)
      • Holdings of American International Group (Mistake)
      • Legal Services Corporation (Never Used)
      • Mercury Filmworks (are you saying that our government is funding a private company in Canada? This is good how?)
      • Murdoch Family Trust (Never Used)
      • NeighborWorks America (Never Used)
      • North Dakota Mill and Elevator (Never Used)
      • Overseas Private Investment Corporation (Never Used)
      • Partnership for a Drug-Free America (Never Used)
      • Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (Never Used)
      • Picatinny Arsenal Public development authority
      • Reconstruction Finance Corporation (Never Used)
      • Resolution Trust Corporation (Never Used)
      • Rural Edge (Never Used)
      • Securities Investor Protection Corporation (Never Used)
      • State Justice Institute (Never Used)
      • Tennessee Valley Authority United States Postal Service (Never Used)
    • You get to say all the silly sh*t you say.
    Now this is funny.
    What is the name of this thread? What is the title?
    "Welfare vs Charity"

    Right? That is the name of this thread. So I mention how I get taxed crap out of me, and then get nothing for it, and how do you respond? By talking about the military and police, and roads?

    You need to go back and learn a new word: "Context".

    But let's talk about that anyway. 2016 Federal Budget revenue is $3.6 Trillion. Department of Defense is $616 Billion. Department of Transportation is $15 Billion. Department of Justice is $15 Billion. Government operations, $10 Billion.

    Starting to see a problem? $656 Billion will cover all your roads, law enforcement, national defense, and all that crap. Where's the other $3 Trillion in taxes going? To all your crap welfare programs.

    We could cut taxes by 80%, and still have MORE than enough money to cover all of those things you mention, that I actually do benefit from. We could even fund that worthless money losing US Postal Service, and have plenty of cash left over to pay down debts. Actually have a true fiscal surplus.

    By the way, same thing at the State level. Only 1/3rd of the State level budget goes to roads, bridges, police and other service. 2/3rds goes to health care, and welfare.

    Similarly at the City level, 1/3rd of the city budget goes towards welfare.

    We could cut taxes at all levels of government, by a massive amount, and still have money left over after funding all the things that really benefit all people.

    That's the reality of it.
     
  6. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    It doesn't matter if you think those programs are for a specific class of society or not..... they are. Flat out, they are. Period.

    Why I don't think those programs help me? Because they don't? I don't even know how to answer the question. When I look back over the last 20+ years of working.... not one time has even one single program, ever been helpful to me. Ever.

    I'm confused by your question. Are you suggesting that somehow, in some magical way that apparently I'm just not as smart as you to realize, these programs do benefit me? I just am incapable of knowing it?

    This is like Obama who said on Camera that people who oppose Obama Care, just don't realize how they are being helped. Essentially all the voters are too dumb to know they are better off?

    If you are trying to insult me, then I understand the question. But otherwise, what do you mean how do I know I haven't been helped by these programs? I haven't been helped. That's how I know those programs don't help me.... because they don't. Never once have they been helpful.

    Now I have met people who have benefited by those programs. And many of them were kind enough to rub it in my face, that they were sitting at home collecting benefits, while I worked to pay the taxes that fund those benefit. Again, great for blood sucking ticks on society... not helpful to me.
     
  7. regent
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    regent Gold Member

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    Of course someone would say: "Why should I pay for courts, I never use them?"
     
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  8. 320 Years of History
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    320 Years of History Gold Member

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    You know, you are most probably the most loud, strong and wrong person I have nearly met in my life. I am not even going to take the time to respond to your remarks. I know you won't bother to go figure out whether your impressions are mistaken, and I know that because you actually replied that that you don't use some of the things your taxes pay for is part of your basis for thinking, and feeling justified about it no less, that you shouldn't have to pay taxes to help contribute to those services being available. You need to go live on an island and just stay there.
     
  9. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    They apply to everybody. Ensuring that people can get the basics is a benefit to all of us. Would you rather that people starved ?
    Here is a thought. No man is going to see his kids starve. Even if that means robbing and killing to get it. Heading off that must be a benefit to you ?
     
  10. Hiryuu
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    Hiryuu Active Member

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    Welfare is fine and dandy, although I wish those managing the programs were a little more familiar with job performance standards. A social safety net is meant to establish a means for people who have fallen behind to sustain themselves and provide for the basics. It should never be a system that maintain a quality of life that anyone wants. A person can buy a lot of beans and rice for a relatively small amount of money.

    I think the United States has allowed the welfare programs and the recipients to target their own desires both financially and politically. It is a shame we have to face the multiple failures our welfare system provides through complacency, waste, fraud and bureaucracy, in trade for the idea we are doing anything good for the masses. Term limited welfare and better management would serve the masses better overall.

    Charities work on a different scale, and are not accountable to the same metric and government assistance. Donations are given and not taken by law or threat of penalty. It also allows the person giving to actually help someone and speaks more to their involvement. Sure, people can feel they are helping others through taxation and redistribution, but they should be more upset about what isn't happening with their money. Once you add the fact that providing for the poor through the political process does nothing more than serve the politicians, charities are the only real means a citizen can use to help another simply for the sake of helping them.

    If someone thinks that it is better for them to pay their taxes and be satisfied with the results, than to dig into their pocket and their time to find ways to help the person in front of them, then how the heck can you argue over whether or not one is better than the other. One may affect more people than the other, but the results will never be as good nor lasting as when someone helps another personally. I can see where others think it is more appealing to rack up more debt making themselves feel better about what they wish could happen, but they don't have to justify their decision because they outnumber those who would rather see better results.
     

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