Watch out it's coming, The political elite are going to take your rights away

[Conservative]

That doesn't forbid the detention of American citizens in military custody either.

you really need to read the entire section I quoted from... 1032.

I read it. It's also nice that we've given the SECDEF the ability to get a waiver.

The ONLY case in which a US citizen could be detained under this bill, is to be directly involved in hostilities towards the US or a coalition partner... or for the two Secs & Director of NI to all agree and inform congress.

In the first case, if they are caught directly involved in hostilities, I have no problem with treating a US citizen like you would an enemy combatant.

In the 2nd case, it would be a matter of public record, and as such, open to FOIA requests for details.

 

[del]

No, but I do believe you are a total idiot that cannot argue your point intelligently. I'm still waiting on your evidence that Americans have been imprisoned indefinitely without just cause.

i've already read enough from you to know that you're a nanny state pussy;there's really no point in taking this any further.

typical texan. all hat and no cattle.

Your concession is duly noted.

your delusion is roundly mocked.

it's interesting that you think you're an american

 

[geauxtohell]

What about killed?

You cannot show me one instance where an American citizen was targeted to be killed by our government without just cause.

I assume you're referring to Awlaki.

* The U.S . government claims that Awlaki has tried to obtain weapons of mass destruction – specifically poisons such as cyanide and ricin – for use in attacking Westerners.

* Awlaki specifically directed Umar Faruq Abdulmutallab in December 2009 to detonate the “underwear” bomb on board a Christmas Day Northwest Airlines flight to Detroit. The government said that Awlaki told Abdulmutallab to detonate the bomb while over U.S. airspace so as to maximize casualties.

* In October 2010, AQAP attempted to explode two U.S. cargo planes by detonating explosives hidden in ink cartridges mailed to synagogues in Chicago. The U.S. government said that Awlaki directly supervised this failed terrorist plot.

* In 2010, Awlaki communicated with Rajib Karim, then a British airlines worker, seeking a way to get a bomb aboard a plane at Heathrow Airport. Karim was convicted in March 2011 in a British court on terrorism charges, and sentenced to 30 years in prison.

The U.S. government also said Awlaki incited terrorism:

* In a May 2010 interview with “Al Qaeda Media,” Awlaki said he supported operations such as the failed Christmas Day bombing even though they target innocent civilians.

“With regard to the issue of ‘civilians,’ this term has become prevalent these days, but I prefer to use the terms employed by our jurisprudents. They classify people as either combatants or noncombatants,” he said. “My message to the Muslims in general, and to those in the Arabian Peninsula in particular, is that we should participate in this jihad against America.”

Awlaki said attacks against U.S .service members, such as those shot by Lt. Nidal Hasan, were perfectly valid: “How can we possibly oppose an operation like Nidal Hasan’s? He killed American soldiers on their way to Afghanistan and Iraq. Who could possibly oppose this?”

* The U.S. government blames Awlaki for “inspiring” terrorist attacks against the U.S., including Fort Hood shooter Hasan – who emailed with him, having attended some of Awlaki’s sermons in Virginia. Failed Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad claimed to have been “inspired by” Awlaki.

* In March 2010, Awlaki said in an audio message that “America is evil” and called for violence against the U.S. “With the American invasion of Iraq and continued U.S. aggression against Muslims, I could not reconcile between living in the U.S. and being a Muslim, and I eventually came to the conclusion that jihad against America is binding upon myself just as it is binding on every other Muslim,” he said.

* Awlaki wrote several articles for INSPIRE magazine, published by AQAP, to justify terrorist attacks.

The U.S. government also notes that in January a Yemeni court sentenced Awlaki in absentia to ten years in prison for “forming an armed gang” to target foreigners and law enforcement personnel.

Was he tried and convicted by his peers in a court of law?

No he wasn't. And rightly so.

I actually supported the actions against Al-Awlaki. I recognized that he was operating in a gray zone, and I don't think that people should be able to use their status as a citizen to shield them from military force when they are plotting against our country.

However, it was constitutionally problematic. So, while I wouldn't support anyone being impeached or punished for hitting Al-Awlaki, however, now that we know about it; it's time to address the issue at hand.

There needs to be a constitutionally proper procedure for this matter.

This doesn't seem like a good answer.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

do you believe in the tooth fairy?

No, but I do believe you are a total idiot that cannot argue your point intelligently. I'm still waiting on your evidence that Americans have been imprisoned indefinitely without just cause.

OXFORD, N.C. — Sixteen-year-old Ashton Lundeby's bedroom in his mother's Granville County home is nothing, if not patriotic. Images of American flags are everywhere – on the bed, on the floor, on the wall.

But according to the United States government, the tenth-grade home-schooler is being held on a criminal complaint that he made a bomb threat from his home on the night of Feb. 15.
Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com

What rights wasn't afforded to him?

Apparently that had a search warrant, and I'd bet they had an arrest warrant as well.

Oh but those facts wouldn't fit your argument.

And this little snippet might just blow your whole argument out of the water.

Ashton Lundeby, 18, of Oxford, North Carolina, was sentenced by Judge Robert Miller, Jr., to 22 months’ imprisonment (time served), and three years of supervised release, after pleading guilty to count one of an indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit one or more offenses against the United States by willfully making threats and maliciously conveying false information concerning attempts to kill, injure, or intimidate individuals and to unlawfully damage or destroy buildings by means of fire or explosives. Judge Miller also ordered restitution of $1,892.70 to the Purdue University Police Department, $7.806.38 to the Tippecanoe Prosecutor’s Office, and $19,517.47 to the Hamden, Connecticut public schools. The court granted the government’s request for a downward departure due to Lundeby’s substantial cooperation in the investigation

FBI — Lundeby Sentenced in Telephone Bomb Threat Hoax

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Was he tried and convicted by his peers in a court of law?

No he wasn't. And rightly so.

No he wasn't and rightly so?
So disregard rights is an acceptable thing now?

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No, but I do believe you are a total idiot that cannot argue your point intelligently. I'm still waiting on your evidence that Americans have been imprisoned indefinitely without just cause.

OXFORD, N.C. — Sixteen-year-old Ashton Lundeby's bedroom in his mother's Granville County home is nothing, if not patriotic. Images of American flags are everywhere – on the bed, on the floor, on the wall.

But according to the United States government, the tenth-grade home-schooler is being held on a criminal complaint that he made a bomb threat from his home on the night of Feb. 15.
Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com

What rights wasn't afforded to him?

Apparently that had a search warrant, and I'd bet they had an arrest warrant as well.

Oh but those facts wouldn't fit your argument.

And this little snippet might just blow your whole argument out of the water.

Ashton Lundeby, 18, of Oxford, North Carolina, was sentenced by Judge Robert Miller, Jr., to 22 months’ imprisonment (time served), and three years of supervised release, after pleading guilty to count one of an indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit one or more offenses against the United States by willfully making threats and maliciously conveying false information concerning attempts to kill, injure, or intimidate individuals and to unlawfully damage or destroy buildings by means of fire or explosives. Judge Miller also ordered restitution of $1,892.70 to the Purdue University Police Department, $7.806.38 to the Tippecanoe Prosecutor’s Office, and $19,517.47 to the Hamden, Connecticut public schools. The court granted the government’s request for a downward departure due to Lundeby’s substantial cooperation in the investigation

FBI — Lundeby Sentenced in Telephone Bomb Threat Hoax

How many times has a lawyer advised his client to plead guilty to lower the sentence?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

i've already read enough from you to know that you're a nanny state pussy;there's really no point in taking this any further.

typical texan. all hat and no cattle.

Your concession is duly noted.

your delusion is roundly mocked.

it's interesting that you think you're an american

Mocking is that only thing you seem capable of.

You damn sure can't support your arguments.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No he wasn't. And rightly so.

No he wasn't and rightly so?
So disregard rights is an acceptable thing now?

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

Really?So what war did he wage? The drug war?

 

[geauxtohell]

you really need to read the entire section I quoted from... 1032.

I read it. It's also nice that we've given the SECDEF the ability to get a waiver.

The ONLY case in which a US citizen could be detained under this bill, is to be directly involved in hostilities towards the US or a coalition partner... or for the two Secs & Director of NI to all agree and inform congress.

In the first case, if they are caught directly involved in hostilities, I have no problem with treating a US citizen like you would an enemy combatant.

In the 2nd case, it would be a matter of public record, and as such, open to FOIA requests for details.

I don't agree that it is the only case. We likely can't think of every scenario and what exactly defines "involved in hostilities towards the US"? In the case of Al-Awlaki, hostility was being a propaganda and recruitment arm.

I also have little faith in the ability of Secretaries to agree, waive their arms, and evaporate someone's constitutional rights.

I also am doubtful that the FOIA would swoop in and right a wrong. Even if it did, the damage is already done for the wrongly imprisoned or killed.

I am not going histrionic about this. I don't see it as a conspiracy to turn the country into a totalitarian state. I just think it is bad law.

So does the President.

Apparently the ACLU is pushing for the Udall Amendment. The ACLU links only take you to an online petition. I found this:

Udall Amendment to National Defense Authorization Act: Revising detainee provisions

That appears a little bit more reasonable.

 

[del]

Your concession is duly noted.

your delusion is roundly mocked.

it's interesting that you think you're an american

Mocking is that only thing you seem capable of.

You damn sure can't support your arguments.

there's no point in arguing with a nanny state wuss. i thought i'd made that clear, *tex*

now go hide under your bed before them nasty mooooooslims gitcha!!!!!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

OXFORD, N.C. — Sixteen-year-old Ashton Lundeby's bedroom in his mother's Granville County home is nothing, if not patriotic. Images of American flags are everywhere – on the bed, on the floor, on the wall.

But according to the United States government, the tenth-grade home-schooler is being held on a criminal complaint that he made a bomb threat from his home on the night of Feb. 15.
Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com

What rights wasn't afforded to him?

Apparently that had a search warrant, and I'd bet they had an arrest warrant as well.

Oh but those facts wouldn't fit your argument.

And this little snippet might just blow your whole argument out of the water.

Ashton Lundeby, 18, of Oxford, North Carolina, was sentenced by Judge Robert Miller, Jr., to 22 months’ imprisonment (time served), and three years of supervised release, after pleading guilty to count one of an indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit one or more offenses against the United States by willfully making threats and maliciously conveying false information concerning attempts to kill, injure, or intimidate individuals and to unlawfully damage or destroy buildings by means of fire or explosives. Judge Miller also ordered restitution of $1,892.70 to the Purdue University Police Department, $7.806.38 to the Tippecanoe Prosecutor’s Office, and $19,517.47 to the Hamden, Connecticut public schools. The court granted the government’s request for a downward departure due to Lundeby’s substantial cooperation in the investigation

FBI — Lundeby Sentenced in Telephone Bomb Threat Hoax

How many times has a lawyer advised his client to plead guilty to lower the sentence?

That's irrelevant.

You claimed the man was stripped of his rights.

Fact is they had a search warrant for his home and if they had that then they would most likely have had an arrest warrant also. There is no evidence to the contrary.

 

[geauxtohell]

No he wasn't. And rightly so.

No he wasn't and rightly so?
So disregard rights is an acceptable thing now?

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

Justify that legally.

In other words, where is it stated that a person forfeits their citizenship when they wage war against the US?

What defines "waging war against the US"?

I am not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but that is a massive slippery slope.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No he wasn't and rightly so?
So disregard rights is an acceptable thing now?

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

Really?So what war did he wage? The drug war?

I've given you some of the evidence against him. Not my fault you didn't read it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

your delusion is roundly mocked.

it's interesting that you think you're an american

Mocking is that only thing you seem capable of.

You damn sure can't support your arguments.

there's no point in arguing with a nanny state wuss. i thought i'd made that clear, *tex*

now go hide under your bed before them nasty mooooooslims gitcha!!!!!

Your concession is duly noted, again.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

Really?So what war did he wage? The drug war?

I've given you some of the evidence against him. Not my fault you didn't read it.

A lot of evidence is not admissible in a court of law. Would your evidence be admissible or would it be thrown out because it was heresy.

But anyway if this type of action makes you feel safer remember this one thing, one day you may be the intended target.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No he wasn't and rightly so?
So disregard rights is an acceptable thing now?

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

Justify that legally.

In other words, where is it stated that a person forfeits their citizenship when they wage war against the US?

What defines "waging war against the US"?

I am not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but that is a massive slippery slope.

Awlaki’s Killing: Legally Justified

 

[geauxtohell]

He forfeited his constitutional rights when he waged war against the US.

Justify that legally.

In other words, where is it stated that a person forfeits their citizenship when they wage war against the US?

What defines "waging war against the US"?

I am not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but that is a massive slippery slope.

Awlaki’s Killing: Legally Justified

That looks like OPED and not legal opinion to me. I saw the administrations justifications as well. I don't fully disagree, however, no where in that article (or anywhere else) is it suggested that US citizenship can arbitrarily be stripped by the Government without due process.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Really?So what war did he wage? The drug war?

I've given you some of the evidence against him. Not my fault you didn't read it.

A lot of evidence is not admissible in a court of law. Would your evidence be admissible or would it be thrown out because it was heresy.

But anyway if this type of action makes you feel safer remember this one thing, one day you may be the intended target.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a criminal and a terrorist.

Criminals should be treated with all due process of civilian law, but terrorists should be treated under the rules of war.

I'm not worried about one day it being me. I have no desire to wage war against the people of the United States.

 

[geauxtohell]

I've given you some of the evidence against him. Not my fault you didn't read it.

A lot of evidence is not admissible in a court of law. Would your evidence be admissible or would it be thrown out because it was heresy.

But anyway if this type of action makes you feel safer remember this one thing, one day you may be the intended target.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a criminal and a terrorist.

Criminals should be treated with all due process of civilian law, but terrorists should be treated under the rules of war.

I'm not worried about one day it being me. I have no desire to wage war against the people of the United States.

Tim McVeigh.

Criminal or terrorist?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Justify that legally.

In other words, where is it stated that a person forfeits their citizenship when they wage war against the US?

What defines "waging war against the US"?

I am not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but that is a massive slippery slope.

Awlaki’s Killing: Legally Justified

That looks like OPED and not legal opinion to me. I saw the administrations justifications as well. I don't fully disagree, however, no where in that article (or anywhere else) is it suggested that US citizenship can arbitrarily be stripped by the Government without due process.

You can agree or disagree but the fact remains that if you wage war against the US and it's people, you may be targeted for death.