Was Jefferson or Lincoln first Republican??

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

 

[Auld Phart]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

Is it because you're a moron?

 

[heil hitler]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson ACTUALLY represented Republicanism in the sense that he believed that the will of the people should dictate the course of a state. Though he did concede that a republic outside of the bounds of a town or city was impracticable.
Lincoln was obviously counter to this in that he used the will of the state to enforce its edict upon the people.

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition; and believing as I do that the mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights, and especially that the evils flowing from the duperies of the people are less injurious than those from the egoism of their agents, I am a friend to that composition of government which has in it the most of this ingredient." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

 

[Pogo]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

You already owe me, and I'm sure others, that same $10k, so give it a rest.

WillHaftawaite is correct --- Jefferson's party was the "Democratic-Republican", and not related to either contemporary party of either name.

The Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in early 1854. Lincoln was a Whig then. They, the meeting in Ripon Wisonsin, would have been the first "Republicans" that are actually related to the contemporary party. Its first Presidential candidate was John C. Frémont in 1856. And neither Frémont's name, nor Lincoln's, appeared on a ballot in the South. It wasn't a national party until after the Civil War.

--- which means, neither Jefferson nor Lincoln was "the first Republican".

I don't even need to look any of this up.

Moreover there was yet another Republican Party, called the National Republicans, later renamed the American Party, colloquially known as the "Know Nothings". They were a bunch of xenophobic thugs whose thuggery foreshadowed the Klan. They too are not related to the modern Republican Party.

I still take PayPal.

 

[heil hitler]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

You already owe me, and I'm sure others, that same $10k, so give it a rest.

WillHaftawaite is correct --- Jefferson's party was the "Democratic-Republican", and not related to either contemporary party of either name.

The Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in early 1854. Lincoln was a Whig then. They, the meeting in Ripon Wisonsin, would have been the first "Republicans" that are actually related to the contemporary party. Its first Presidential candidate was John C. Frémont in 1856. And neither Frémont's name, nor Lincoln's, appeared on a ballot in the South. It wasn't a national party until after the Civil War.

--- which means, neither Jefferson nor Lincoln was "the first Republican".

I don't even need to look any of this up.

I still take PayPal.

I think this is a philosophical question bud.

 

[norwegen]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Did Lincoln found the modern Republican Party?

I'm not sure Madison had anything to do with originating the Republican Party of Thomas Jefferson, either. No doubt he would have abandoned the Federalist Party at any rate, but to join any existing party already more in line with America's first principles.

 

[Pogo]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

 

[Pogo]

Did Lincoln found the modern Republican Party?

No. He was a Whig, and joined the RP after it was formed. Also declared himself and his Democrat running mate to be the "National Union Party" for whatever that's worth.

I'm not sure Madison had anything to do with originating the Republican Party of Thomas Jefferson, either. No doubt he would have abandoned the Federalist Party at any rate, but to join any existing party already more in line with America's first principles.

Perhaps that sentence comes in English (?) but the Federalist Party was much like Lincoln's Whigs in that it believed in strong central government. So if the Federalists had existed in Lincoln's time instead of the Whigs ---- it's likely he would have been a Federalist, in that it was most in line with the Whigs.

 

[Pogo]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

You already owe me, and I'm sure others, that same $10k, so give it a rest.

WillHaftawaite is correct --- Jefferson's party was the "Democratic-Republican", and not related to either contemporary party of either name.

The Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in early 1854. Lincoln was a Whig then. They, the meeting in Ripon Wisonsin, would have been the first "Republicans" that are actually related to the contemporary party. Its first Presidential candidate was John C. Frémont in 1856. And neither Frémont's name, nor Lincoln's, appeared on a ballot in the South. It wasn't a national party until after the Civil War.

--- which means, neither Jefferson nor Lincoln was "the first Republican".

I don't even need to look any of this up.

Moreover there was yet another Republican Party, called the National Republicans, later renamed the American Party, colloquially known as the "Know Nothings". They were a bunch of xenophobic thugs whose thuggery foreshadowed the Klan. They too are not related to the modern Republican Party.

I still take PayPal.

I think this is a philosophical question bud.

What --- whether I'll ever collect my $10k?

If it's dependent on his book sales I ain't holding my breath.

 

[Picaro]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

They were 'Republicans' in the sense that they were fans of the French 'republicans', but they were very much more interested in maintaining themselves and their 'class' as a genteel aristocracy and not much inclined to letting the 'rabble' have much of a say in how the country or the states were governed. After Shay's Rebellion and many of the smaller one of similar mein like it, they decided they liked having a Federal govt. and national army available to put down uppity peasants without having to hire and pay their own private armies, and along with the obvious problems of trade and commerce they were all facing as individual states, they decided to form 'a more perfect union' and create a raft of Federal powers after all.

Naturally, the Anti-Federalists mostly boycotted the new Convention, so we get more Federalism than egalitarianism out of it; that's why the Bill of Rights wasn't included in the body of the Constitution itself and put into Amendments, which could be changed or struck down, for instance.

Washington used the new Federal power to go after uppity proles in Pennsylvania who opposed the liquor tax, via the rubric of calling up a the state militia, and Jefferson dispensed with that fig leaf and sent Federal troops out to enforce his port embargoes; he was indifferent to the starving rabble in the cities that resulted in his enforcement; he didn't like uppity proles either. So, they liked Federal powers just fine when it suited their political goals, hated it when it interfered with them, especially Jefferson, Madison less so; Madison is the reason the Federal government wasn't allowed to use force against state govts. or states that seceded, more of a 'moderate Federalist'.

 

[Iceweasel]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

 

[Picaro]

There were three factions of 'Federalists', and any of them could have been their own 'Party' given the differences between them. Madison was one of the more moderate ones, but was still not popular with the northeastern faction nor the Hamilton faction, the latter wanted a king. After a time they all recognized the need for a national identity and compromised to bring one about, if not a happy agreement.

 

[Picaro]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Yes, and it's also nonsense for today's conservatives to claim he would believe what a lot of their beliefs are, too. the terms don't mean the same today as the did then in either case.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

You already owe me, and I'm sure others, that same $10k, so give it a rest.

WillHaftawaite is correct --- Jefferson's party was the "Democratic-Republican", and not related to either contemporary party of either name.

The Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in early 1854. Lincoln was a Whig then. They, the meeting in Ripon Wisonsin, would have been the first "Republicans" that are actually related to the contemporary party. Its first Presidential candidate was John C. Frémont in 1856. And neither Frémont's name, nor Lincoln's, appeared on a ballot in the South. It wasn't a national party until after the Civil War.

--- which means, neither Jefferson nor Lincoln was "the first Republican".

I don't even need to look any of this up.

Moreover there was yet another Republican Party, called the National Republicans, later renamed the American Party, colloquially known as the "Know Nothings". They were a bunch of xenophobic thugs whose thuggery foreshadowed the Klan. They too are not related to the modern Republican Party.

I still take PayPal.

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?[/QUOTE]

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Yes, and it's also nonsense for today's conservatives to claim he would believe what a lot of their beliefs are, too. the terms don't mean the same today as the did then in either case.

Actually since the days of Plato and Aristotle the issue has always been freedom versus government so that issue is still the issue we face today and the issue we will always face. I assume you understand now that Republicans since Jefferson have stood for freedom and other parties, especially the modern Democrat party which spied for Stalin gave him the bottom and voted for Obama

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Yes, and it's also nonsense for today's conservatives to claim he would believe what a lot of their beliefs are, too. the terms don't mean the same today as the did then in either case.

What??so you think Jefferson didn't believe in freedom from government even though he in Madison founded the Republican Party to stand for exactly and precisely that belief?????

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Jefferson created the Democrat-Republican party.

Lincoln was the first Republican president

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

You already owe me, and I'm sure others, that same $10k, so give it a rest.

WillHaftawaite is correct --- Jefferson's party was the "Democratic-Republican", and not related to either contemporary party of either name.

The Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in early 1854. Lincoln was a Whig then. They, the meeting in Ripon Wisonsin, would have been the first "Republicans" that are actually related to the contemporary party. Its first Presidential candidate was John C. Frémont in 1856. And neither Frémont's name, nor Lincoln's, appeared on a ballot in the South. It wasn't a national party until after the Civil War.

--- which means, neither Jefferson nor Lincoln was "the first Republican".

I don't even need to look any of this up.

Moreover there was yet another Republican Party, called the National Republicans, later renamed the American Party, colloquially known as the "Know Nothings". They were a bunch of xenophobic thugs whose thuggery foreshadowed the Klan. They too are not related to the modern Republican Party.

I still take PayPal.

If you have primary source that says Democrat- Republican rather than Republican from 18th Century I will pay you $10,000. Bet? Do you know why liberal historians trick you that way?

[/QUOTE]

Can you name the only Conservative President that when he left office the United States of America did not have any national debt?

He was not Republican!

What is my point?

Conservatives once ran with the Democratic Party and Progressives like Lincoln were Republicans, so you might believe Jefferson was a Republican in today sense but he was not!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There were three factions of 'Federalists', and any of them could have been their own 'Party' given the differences between them. Madison was one of the more moderate ones, but was still not popular with the northeastern faction nor the Hamilton faction, the latter wanted a king. After a time they all recognized the need for a national identity and compromised to bring one about, if not a happy agreement.

Actually before the Constitution was ratified Madison and Jefferson were moderate federalists at best.After ratification it became clear to Jefferson and Madison that they wanted no part of the huge federal government that Washington and Hamilton were contemplating. That was 1792. Jefferson left the Washington administration and founded the Republican Party to stand for freedom from central government exactly what Hamilton and washington did not stand for. Now you've got the basic facts with which to work.