Was Dwight Gooden the best ever?

[elvis]

What the hell happened? Did the drugs catch up to him?

1985 stats: 24-4, 16 CG, 8 SHO 268 SO, 1.53 ERA

Keep in mind, they raised the mound in 1972.

 

[del]

yeah, the drugs caught up with him. for my money, the best year of any pitcher in my lifetime was this:

GS W-L Pct ERA CG SHO IP SO BB

34 22-9 .710 1.12 28 13 304.2 268 62

bob gibson, 1968 cards and probably the main reason they lowered the mound the next year. this is the same year denny mcclain won 30, but gibson was better, longer, IMO.

Bob Gibson Baseball Stats by Baseball Almanac

 

[jillian]

What the hell happened? Did the drugs catch up to him?

1985 stats: 24-4, 16 CG, 8 SHO 268 SO, 1.53 ERA

Keep in mind, they raised the mound in 1972.

yes... he was the best ever. Dr K knew how to throw a ball... bummer it fell apart. cocaine does that.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

 

[Article 15]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

 

[elvis]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

 

[Article 15]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Sandy Koufax Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[elvis]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Sandy Koufax Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

ah ok. so ryan beat him by one SO.

 

[elvis]

yup one strikeout

Nolan Ryan Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[DamnYankee]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Okay.... If you want to put (*) by the stats by virtue of the fact that the mound height was adjusted up/down during the tenure of the various pitchers, how about we put (*) by the stats of the homerun "kings" who became kings by virtue of steroid use?

 

[Article 15]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Okay.... If you want to put (*) by the stats by virtue of the fact that the mound height was adjusted up/down during the tenure of the various pitchers, how about we put (*) by the stats of the homerun "kings" who became kings by virtue of steroid use?

If you go that route it only makes Pedro look that much more dominant by pitching to roided up beasts in the heart of the steroid era, on a lower mound, and in a league with a DH.

And he owned them.

 

[DamnYankee]

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Okay.... If you want to put (*) by the stats by virtue of the fact that the mound height was adjusted up/down during the tenure of the various pitchers, how about we put (*) by the stats of the homerun "kings" who became kings by virtue of steroid use?

If you go that route it only makes Pedro look that much more dominant by pitching to roided up beasts in the heart of the steroid era, on a lower mound, and in a league with a DH.

And he owned them.

I absolutely agree. So, if we want to be truly objective about this, who has been the best [pitcher] ever? Or batter, for that matter? I, personally, don't subscribe to the notion that HRs necessarily make them the best batter.

 

[del]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

sandy koufax and pedro had remarkably similar careera in terms of being domnant for a relatively brief time, but betrayed by their bodies. in my mind, gibson was the best i ever saw, koufax next and then pedro. pedro's the only one i actually saw live in games and he was absolutely amazing. definitely the nastiest changeup i've ever seen.

 

[del]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Okay.... If you want to put (*) by the stats by virtue of the fact that the mound height was adjusted up/down during the tenure of the various pitchers, how about we put (*) by the stats of the homerun "kings" who became kings by virtue of steroid use?

sure, i don't recognize them anyway. maris and aaron's records still stand as far as i'm concerned.

 

[elvis]

Ahem ...

Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 would like to have a word with you two:

1963: 25-5, 1.88 ERA, 11 SO, 311 IP, 303 K
1964: 19-5, 1.74 ERA, 7 SO, 223 IP, 223 K
1965: 26-8, 2.05 ERA, 8 SO, 335 IP, 382 K
1966: 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 5 SO, 323 IP, 317 K

And when it comes to pitchers I've actually seen in my lifetime (and that include Doc Gooded) Pedro Martinez is hands down the best.

you sure that strikeout number in 65 is correct? 383 is the record by Nolan ryan.

i would say Koufax is right up there, but again, the mound was a different height.

Okay.... If you want to put (*) by the stats by virtue of the fact that the mound height was adjusted up/down during the tenure of the various pitchers, how about we put (*) by the stats of the homerun "kings" who became kings by virtue of steroid use?

The steroid users like Nim rod and barry bonds , McGwire, etc.should be BANNED FOR LIFE. Maris and Aaron are the home run kings and Bonds can go fuck himself.

I don't necessarily advocate asterisks, only saying the mound height should be considered.

 

[Xenophon]

No he wasn't.

After three good years his drug abuse got far out of hand to the point where the Mets outright released him.

Ironically he would rebuild his reputation on the Yankees, winning another WS ring and pitching a no hitter.

 

[elvis]

No he wasn't.

After three good years his drug abuse got far out of hand to the point where the Mets outright released him.

Ironically he would rebuild his reputation on the Yankees, winning another WS ring and pitching a no hitter.

was the 1985 Dwight Godden the best ever?

 

[manifold]

Bob Stanley

With honorable mention to Calvin Shiraldi.

 

[elvis]

Bob Stanley

With honorable mention to Calvin Shiraldi.

Mookie Wilson has joined the board.

 

[manifold]

But seriously, the thing that makes any "best ever" debate both loads of fun and totally pointless is the ridiculous subjectivity involved. How much does longevity matter? How much do comparisons of "in their prime" or "at their best" matter? How do you compare across different eras? How much does winning or not winning championships matter?

For example, at his best I still say John McEnroe beats any tennis player ever at their best, including Sampras and Federer. But does that make him the best ever? Maybe, maybe not.

Call me a homer, but same goes for Bobby Orr and Larry Bird. At their respective peaks, I don't think there was anyone better.