warning : discussion of race in America, likely to be unpleasant

[digger]

Sure buddy. You take my OP, which doesn't even mention partisan politics, and all you do is bitch about Democrats. Your avatar might as well be a campaign button. I challenged you real hard to add something to this thread, and all you've managed to do so far is repeat someone else's good point. It's just icing on the cake that your post at the top of this page contradicts your post at the top of the first page. First Obama's the worst racist in the country for saying something. Then he's right for saying it? Shows that you're more interested in bickering than in forming reasoned ideas. Or at least you were in your first post. I dunno. Maybe you're coming around. Prove me wrong.

 

[idb]

Racism towards blacks is perpetuated by the assumption that there is a single 'black culture'.
Just like whites, there are different cultures among blacks, and they obviously overlap with whites.

There are black lawyers just as there are gangbangers.

 

[Grace]

You seem like a reasonable human being, Grace. A rarity in this world. *sigh*

So, given that there are problems in Black culture. There's not really much that you or I could do about it. Do you agree that there is also systemic racism in our society today? If so, do you think it is your responsibility to do something about it?

Yes, I think there is systemic racism going on today. Nothing can be done about it until all races cease division by segregating themselves. And I am talking about blacks trying to rectify it as well as whites trying as well. Until that happens, MLK's dream is just a pipe dream and I don't think that was his intention for such rifts to continue on. He had a dream. Now his own people are dividing themselves instead of them dreaming along with him.

 

[digger]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk]YouTube - Martin Luther King "I have a dream"[/ame]

 

[Grace]

Smart man, MLK. Taken out before he was supposed to, by some schmuck.

I'm off to bed. I will check back in the morning. Perhaps I will dream of my lost black man I was so crazy about. Then again, maybe I will drop him an email just to play catch up THEN go to bed and dream of what may have been.
Goodnight.

 

[digger]

I dunno though. When you say there's nothing we can do, it sounds like you're saying we should do nothing. It doesn't seem right to say that there is systemic racism, and then not do anything about it. Or are you saying that I should move to a Black neighborhood?

I guess there are two fronts. There's the deeper level that you're talking about. We need to change on the inside. It's slow, and incremental. It's generational. But there's also an outer level. A struggle.

And I think there's a feedback effect. When people change on the inside, they will work harder for change on the outside. That change on the outside will make other people change on the inside.

Good night. Sleep well. Nice talking to you.

 

[chanel]

Digger - one of the biggest problems with racism is that NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT IT. I have several black friends (for some, that remark is considered racist in and of itself) and we can talk about our differences (an commonalities) and what needs to be done to lift people out of poverty. We may have very different ideas about how to do that. But because we respect each other, no one gets their panties in a wad about the conversation.

But don't think prejudice is exclusive to whites. Minorities have their own prejudices with regard to race, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc.

A friend of mine said "You are the first Republican I've met that isn't racist." I then named about half dozen of our mutual friends who are R's, and he admitted they were not racist either. I then asked if he knew any other Republicans. He said 'no". I said, "You have been raised to think that, but the truth is quite the opposite." I then called him a bigot.

 

[digger]

Let me explain that whole "I have Black friends" thing. It's not that people consider the phrase itself racist. But it's an indicator. The conversation happens a lot. Someone will say something racist, get called on it, and then say "but I have Black friends." It a very recognizable pattern, and it makes people groan. Especially since if you press the person, it usually turns out that they're pretty racist, regardless of who their friends are. Very racist people often have good friends that they don't apply their racist beliefs to. Once someone becomes an individual, that trumps people's preconceived notions of them.

It's kind of like when someone says "I don't want to offend you, but," you know they're about to offend you. It's not that they said "I don't want to offend you" that makes them offensive. It's what they say next.

Republicans do tend more towards racism than Democrats. It's a demographics thing, I think. Republicans are older and live in the South. That sort of thing perpetuates itself. Republicans play to their base, which isn't Black. So Blacks vote for Democrats. And the whole thing just keeps going. Not necessarily overt racism, but the parties looking out for different people's interests. Urban vs. rural is often Black vs. White, for instance.

 

[bucs90]

Sure buddy. You take my OP, which doesn't even mention partisan politics, and all you do is bitch about Democrats. Your avatar might as well be a campaign button. I challenged you real hard to add something to this thread, and all you've managed to do so far is repeat someone else's good point. It's just icing on the cake that your post at the top of this page contradicts your post at the top of the first page. First Obama's the worst racist in the country for saying something. Then he's right for saying it? Shows that you're more interested in bickering than in forming reasoned ideas. Or at least you were in your first post. I dunno. Maybe you're coming around. Prove me wrong.

So you wanna have a discussion about racism, in particular about how you feel society is holding back blacks. Then, you do NOT want to talk about how the most powerful man in the world, a black guy, throws around statements like "typical white person".

You do know that how the most powerful man in the world acts does affect issues within our society, like racism, right? To have a discussion of race, without including racial politics, is insane, as racism and politics are tied together and always have been. You can't have a discussion on this without realizing that.

 

[bucs90]

Republicans do tend more towards racism than Democrats. It's a demographics thing, I think. Republicans are older and live in the South. That sort of thing perpetuates itself. Republicans play to their base, which isn't Black. So Blacks vote for Democrats. And the whole thing just keeps going. Not necessarily overt racism, but the parties looking out for different people's interests. Urban vs. rural is often Black vs. White, for instance.

You just flushed any credibility you have down the drain with that statement. Do you know how much of the rural South is black? A lot. Did you know over 50% of all blacks live in the 8 Southern states? Do you know that countless studies show that in MODERN times, the races tend to get along better in the South than anywhere else, because we've lived together for long enough to move past it? Of course you don't. You're brainwashed.

Do you know the history or racism in the Democratic Party? That the Democrats to this day fiercly support an organization whose founding goal was, quote, "To rid the world of negroes and morons." Obama himself praised this organization. Do you know the history of the left wing and it's silent embrace of eugenics, aka, extermination of unwanted peoples? Of far left SCOTUS Justice Ginsberg and how she expressed her disappointment that abortion hadn't eradicated unwanted minority populations yet? Both parties have racist histories. But the right wing has mostly moved beyond it. The left is still obsessed with race.

 

[digger]

There's including. And then there's dominating. Most threads around here are dominated by partisans screaming about how the other side is ruining everything. Pretending to care about things that they don't care about just to make cheap points. I'm trying to avoid that.

You're back to calling Obama racist now. But you said he was right a little while ago. Makes me think you're still just out to score cheap points.

Edit : Yes, I know that lots of Blacks live in the South. Largely rural. Actually, if you look at the Census data, they're starting to migrate back South from the Northern cities, and from the Southern cities out to the rural areas. No, I don't believe you that race relations are better in the South than elsewhere. About the closest I've heard is that some people prefer the overt racism of the South to the covert racism elsewhere. "At least you know where you stand." Link?

The urban/rural was about the non-South. In the non-South, most Black people live in cities.

 

[editec]

This society has made enormous progress in changing the attitudes of many people about race in my lifetime.

But as this board constantly reminds me, racism is still poisoning the zeitgeist.

 

[bucs90]

There's including. And then there's dominating. Most threads around here are dominated by partisans screaming about how the other side is ruining everything. Pretending to care about things that they don't care about just to make cheap points. I'm trying to avoid that.

You're back to calling Obama racist now. But you said he was right a little while ago. Makes me think you're still just out to score cheap points.

He was right, in that most white people would try to avoid a ghetto looking black person. He was wrong in saying it, with the phrase, "typical white person". If I said a "typical black person" doesn't pay rent on time, is late to work, beats their kids, does drugs, plays the lottery, and spends more on their car's rims than their kids education, well, I'd be partly right, but wrong for saying it.

But we all have to stop making those generalizations. Its just hard when social leaders wont take the lead in doing so.

 

[bucs90]

Edit : Yes, I know that lots of Blacks live in the South. Largely rural. Actually, if you look at the Census data, they're starting to migrate back South from the Northern cities, and from the Southern cities out to the rural areas. No, I don't believe you that race relations are better in the South than elsewhere. About the closest I've heard is that some people prefer the overt racism of the South to the covert racism elsewhere. "At least you know where you stand." Link?

The urban/rural was about the non-South. In the non-South, most Black people live in cities.

Well, you should believe it, because I've lived in many parts of the country, and the South is where I see blacks, whites, hispanics, asians getting along the best. Sorry, but it's the truth, despite what you've been told in college and in the movies. If you think "overt" racism is still practiced down here, then you haven't spent much time here. The races are at each other's throats in LA, Arizona, Illinois, Jersey, New York, Detroit, etc. In the South, where we've lived beside each other for centuries, we've learned mostly to get along and like each other. But hey....I'm not the one posting new race based threads, so what do I know about being worried about race, right?

 

[idb]

There's including. And then there's dominating. Most threads around here are dominated by partisans screaming about how the other side is ruining everything. Pretending to care about things that they don't care about just to make cheap points. I'm trying to avoid that.

You're back to calling Obama racist now. But you said he was right a little while ago. Makes me think you're still just out to score cheap points.

He was right, in that most white people would try to avoid a ghetto looking black person. He was wrong in saying it, with the phrase, "typical white person". If I said a "typical black person" doesn't pay rent on time, is late to work, beats their kids, does drugs, plays the lottery, and spends more on their car's rims than their kids education, well, I'd be partly right, but wrong for saying it.

But we all have to stop making those generalizations. Its just hard when social leaders wont take the lead in doing so.

You should be a little bit more careful about your quoting - he never mentioned black people, let alone 'ghetto looking black person'

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know - there's a reaction in her that's been bred into our experiences that don't go away and sometimes come out in the wrong way and that's just the nature of race in our society. We have to break through it. What makes me optimistic is you see each generation feeling less like that. And that's pretty powerful stuff"

Granted though, 'typical white person' wasn't a brilliant phrase to use in discussing such a contentious issue.

 

[digger]

There's including. And then there's dominating. Most threads around here are dominated by partisans screaming about how the other side is ruining everything. Pretending to care about things that they don't care about just to make cheap points. I'm trying to avoid that.

You're back to calling Obama racist now. But you said he was right a little while ago. Makes me think you're still just out to score cheap points.

He was right, in that most white people would try to avoid a ghetto looking black person. He was wrong in saying it, with the phrase, "typical white person". If I said a "typical black person" doesn't pay rent on time, is late to work, beats their kids, does drugs, plays the lottery, and spends more on their car's rims than their kids education, well, I'd be partly right, but wrong for saying it.

But we all have to stop making those generalizations. Its just hard when social leaders wont take the lead in doing so.

See, now we're getting into the territory that Chanel was talking about. .That there are certain words or phrases that are not supposed to be said. That there are things that everyone thinks but no one is allowed to say. That sort of situation doesn't help. Things work themselves out better when they're out in the open.

 

[mudwhistle]

Racism in America. Everyone says it's there. But not very many people will fess up to it. There was that couple in Alabama that picked me up hitch hiking. They were not ashamed of being racist. I asked them why they were racist. They said hey, Black people are just stupid and lazy. What about Miles Davis? They gave me Miles Davis.

But that's not most racism in America. Most people who consider themselves racists don't talk about it publicly, because they know it's not acceptable, except I guess in Alabama. I think that most racists today don't even consider themselves racist. And yet racism continues.

There is something in America that persistently disadvantages Black people. It happens all the time and everywhere, in thousands of ways, big and small. I would be interested to hear someone who is perceived as Black speak to this.

Color blindness seems to be popular nowadays. Just don't talk about race. I don't see very many Black people taking this view. It seems to be a comfortable thing for the privileged to think. And I don't agree. To be color blind is to deny that people who are perceived differently have had different experiences. It's a different country if you're Black. A much worse place to live.

I think that those who benefit from racism, and do nothing to dismantle it, are participating. They may not consider themselves racist. They may not even look at Black people differently from White people. But they are complacent. It's like buying a used bicycle for 20 bucks when it's worth 2000. You may not have stolen it. But if you're honest with yourself, you know that someone else did, and you're participating in the crime.

As long as they keep voting for Democrats I don't see a problem.

 

[digger]

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know - there's a reaction in her that's been bred into our experiences that don't go away and sometimes come out in the wrong way and that's just the nature of race in our society. We have to break through it. What makes me optimistic is you see each generation feeling less like that. And that's pretty powerful stuff"

I agree with everything he said there. I'm glad that the President is talking about this kind of thing. I think he's spot on, in that that is how typical White people act, and I think it's counterproductive to bitch about how someone said something if you agree with his underlying point.

 

[digger]

Edit : Yes, I know that lots of Blacks live in the South. Largely rural. Actually, if you look at the Census data, they're starting to migrate back South from the Northern cities, and from the Southern cities out to the rural areas. No, I don't believe you that race relations are better in the South than elsewhere. About the closest I've heard is that some people prefer the overt racism of the South to the covert racism elsewhere. "At least you know where you stand." Link?

The urban/rural was about the non-South. In the non-South, most Black people live in cities.

Well, you should believe it, because I've lived in many parts of the country, and the South is where I see blacks, whites, hispanics, asians getting along the best. Sorry, but it's the truth, despite what you've been told in college and in the movies. If you think "overt" racism is still practiced down here, then you haven't spent much time here. The races are at each other's throats in LA, Arizona, Illinois, Jersey, New York, Detroit, etc. In the South, where we've lived beside each other for centuries, we've learned mostly to get along and like each other. But hey....I'm not the one posting new race based threads, so what do I know about being worried about race, right?

Well, we're just gonna have to disagree on this one. I'm not going to accept your anecdotal evidence. Especially when I've got plenty of my own that flies in its face.

 

[idb]

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know - there's a reaction in her that's been bred into our experiences that don't go away and sometimes come out in the wrong way and that's just the nature of race in our society. We have to break through it. What makes me optimistic is you see each generation feeling less like that. And that's pretty powerful stuff"

I agree with everything he said there. I'm glad that the President is talking about this kind of thing. I think he's spot on, in that that is how typical White people act, and I think it's counterproductive to bitch about how someone said something if you agree with his underlying point.

My point earlier though is that generalisations of a race are one of the main things that perpetuate racism.
I know you are asking to get away from being too precious about it, but isn't that what he is doing with that statement - generalising white people?